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I figured I'd start the 8th edition Blood Angel Tactica. My firs army, and still one of my true loves.

Summary of what 8th Edition brought us:

THE GOOD:
-Assaulting from transports - return of rhino/razorback assault squads?

-Mephiston got unnerfed, his weapon is no long "AP3" but rather is -3 to armor saves, at S10 all the time, still being able to cast all 3 powers, and a special 5+ save against everything, he's a power to be reckoned with.

-Detachment(Force Org) changes: We can no bring detachments that allow us to field all fast attack if we want, a release from the pain of the long term BA players who hard 6 assault squads and no way to field them all anymore.

THE BAD:
-Transport costs went up all of the place. No free rhinos for assault squads, droppods are expensive, razorbacks as well.

-Morale changes: Enemy units aren't just going to fold and get swallowed up in combat, they will take extra damage, then they will fallback if they can so that they can shoot our poor assault marines.

-We have a new temporary codex, thus we are missing a lot of our uniqueness. We're still a lot better off then some chapters.

THE UGLY:
-We lost Feel no Pain from our priest, each unit has a 6+ save on wounds. Our priests instead give us +1S(thanks Pendroig), can heal a single model, or bring back alive a slain one on 4+. With Corbulo allowing us also to have a chance to generate extra attacks. Our toughness has diminished for sure.

bobafett012 wrote:
One thing I think you forgot to mention in THE GOOD column is Assaulting from DS with an army that can run lots of JP's. I know you still need a 9+ on 2D6 to make the charge but just got to drop in enough units to hit a couple charges. Lemartes can help in this regard since he allows you to reroll charge ranges. Lemartes leading some JP Death Company seems like a good start.

Even though the DC have lost quite a bit over the last 2 editions, they are getting nice and cheap for the 2 extra attacks over assault marines base of 1(black rage and 2 base). Black Rage also gives the 6+ FnP so thats atleast something, and of course the ability to outfit them all into upgraded wargear makes them a very killy unit.


A big disappointment for me was the blood talons for dreadnaughts. They are identical as the fists, other than rolling a D6 on the irst.

Good points. DC might very well be the go to unit, especially since when I was looking at assault marines, I noticed that since we have to use generic marine datasheet for them, we no longer have meltaguns on our assault marines. Sigh!

On a better note, I was slightly disappointed with the Dreads, but so happy that they can no long be immobilized and they don't have diminishing stats like other vehicles. They fight to the bitter end, and they fight well. They move fast and hit hard. These are more so for killing enemy large single models then they are for killing infantry like they used to.

So I had my first battle with the new Blood Angels. It was a 1500pt game against Dark Eldar (I helped him optimize his list, so it was pretty rough)

My list:
Mephiston
Lemartes
10x Death Company with chainswords
Stormraven (MM,Heavy PC,Hurricane Bolters, missiles)
Furioso Dreadnought Frag cannon Heavy flamer magnagrapple
Whirlwind Castellan
Whirlwind Vengeance
3x Tac Squads with PC and sgt with combi-plasma

His list:
Succubus
Succubus
6x wytches Hyrda gauntlet Power Sword
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
5x wytches Hyrda gauntlet agonizer
Raider Dark Lance (DL) - 2x 5man wytches in here
Raider DL - 2x 5man wytches in here
Raider DL - 6man wytches and succubi in here
Ravager 3x DL
Ravager 3x DL
Ravager 3x DL
Void Raven Bomber - Void Lances, missiles, bomb


Mission Only War - modified

We did the random objectives after placing and got relic, we had a trailer of objectives across the middle of the map, so the DE player choose hammer and anvil to hamper me since I had a bunch of foot troops. he got luck and got the objective in his deployment zone as the relic.

I got to go first.


I put lemartes + 10x DC and the Dreadnought in the stormraven, flew forward quickly to force him to deal with them instead of my tactical squads placed in various terrain. With the whirldwind hiding in back.

His placement was spread around some since I saved my stormraven for last and he didn't know where it would go.


I'll just give a summary of events:
-Due to misjudging how many shots it took to finish a ravager, i failed to kill it first turn, and later paid for it when it rolled 2 5's for shootingwith DLs at my Stormraven.

-Dark lances are no joke good, and blaster pistols even better. Why do Eldar Lances become assault on vehicles while almost every marine weapon stay as a heavy even when on a vehicle? This make Ravagers amazing, higher mobility then Marine vehicle can achieve, no penalty for moving and shooting, super cheap, and yes a little weaker, but they all have 5+ inv saves. Him saving every 3rd shot was amazing, where as my expensive storm raven so some serious hits, and never got to roll an armor save all game.

-I think DE might have the best flyers as well, The voidbomber is very good and priced well.

-We had some serious melee clashes, and got to learn a lot about the new melee rules. having to back up a few times to fix mistakes made in turn order and charging/pile rules.

-My Dreadnought felt rather ineffective, but thats mostly because every unit champion and succubi had blaster pistols and just took him down very quickly, I think I should have left him in the Stormraven for another turn.

-Those Death Company with great, and especially tough with a nicely times Sanguinary Shield from mephiston the turn before the got charged by everything (Wish I hadn't lost 3 to the raider explosion)

-Lemartes kill the most out of anything that game, he was beast, making tons of save (made 2 6+ FNP, calling that last save FNP, for old times sake, when he only had 1 wound left.)

-Mephiston felt like his old self again, pre-AP3 sword days.


Lesson Learned - Invulnerable saves are the best thing to have in this edition. With cover adding to armor, and every army having access to -3/-4AP weapons, if they want a unit to die, they can make it die, the only thing stopping them are inv saves and FNP. I saw this as I struggled to kill his vehicles despite wounds them often, and him basically laughing at my stormraven. Then again when my DC have inv saves and thet absorbed his whole army's shooting and assault in one turn to kill 7 guys. Then again with Lemartes and Mephiston shrugging off many wounds and the enemy Wytches/Succubi saving 4 wounds at the end of 2 different combats in a row on 4+ invs.

From list building efforts, we find DE can easily make a brigade army in 1850. This si something Marines just can't pull off (While staying as a marine only army of course) So we are going to have to find a way to deal with spammy list the fill out brigades.

Last point: Command points, my opponent only used his for rerolls, but they were rather effective. I time one combat to interrupts his charging and used my DC to kill a succubi that hadn't attacked yet that round, I felt that was really really strong.

So after doing some more scanning on the generic space marine units, I think Vanguard vets are a better by then DC. I can get a VV with jumppack and storm shield for 23pts. that is 3 attacks every round with a 3++ and the champ can take a relic blade. DC with jumppacks cost 20, and I found that 6+ FNP is rather worthless, think i rolled it once all game, and only on Lemartes. With all the armor modifiers out there, inv saves seem to be a must and VV with storm shields are "cheap as chips". Sorry it's a saying stuck in my head lately from various British battle reports.

So for 255pts you get 10x VV with Stormshields, 9x Chainswords and 1x Relicblade, 1x Melta Bomb 10x Jumpppacks. Follow them around with a priest for +1S and reviving 3++ save models is really good imo. Maybe lead by the Sanguinor for +1A


Random other thought:
-The only other way to reduce enemy shooting effectiveness (other then taking inv saves) is to make them no hit so well. how do we do this? Well Stormravens come with an inherit -1 to hit them. But if we look to our allies, there are ways to further reduce shooting. If we bring either a Dark Angel Librarian or a Space Wolf rune Priest, then we gain access to psychic powers that give enemy units -1 to hit. we could even bring both.

Example Scenario: fly 2x stormraven with VVs (no packs) 1 with a priest with a JP and the other Sanguinor, After we move the stormravens into the appropiate position, we deepstrike in our librarian/runepriest within range to give negative modifiers to the units most likely to kill the storm ravens. Noone can target the librarians because the stormraven is the closer unit. No the enemy units most likely to kill the storm ravens are at -2 maybe even -3 to hit. Even worse if they need to move.



Here is a list with that idea in mind:
2000pts
Vanguard Detachment
HQ Sanguinor
Elite Vangaurd Vets x10- 9x CS 1x RB
Elite Vangaurd Vets x10- 9x CS 1x RB
Elite Evesor Assassin
Flyer Stormraven- TAC, TML, 2x HUR, 2x SSM
Flyer Stormraven- TAC, TML, 2x HUR, 2x SSM

Spearhead Detachment
HQ Rune Priest JP Runic Sword
HQ DA Librarian JP Force Sword
Heavy Devastatorsx5- 4x Las, Cherub
Heavy Devastatorsx5- 4x Las, Cherub
Heavy Whirlwind- Castellan Launcher

 th3maninblak wrote:
Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.

Just beware using overcharge on the twin plasmagun, it does indeed oneshot the razorback.

Bartali wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Both of my razors are las/plas. Wondering how those will work out given the new rules. Rapid fire 2/4 still seems strong, and lascannons shore up our weakness vs high wound targets.

I think the Twin Las, Twin AC and Twin HF Razors are probably the best - for backfield, midfield and opponent deployment zone respectively.
The Twin HB is 'ok' but I'd still probably want to spend a bit more for the Twin AC

The Las/Plas Razor is in a funny place. You'll be driving the Razor up to get into 12/24" range for the Twin Plasma, meaning the Lascannon will be at -1 to hit mostly. It's not bad, but I'd still probably pick one of the other choices.

Stormbolters at 2pts seem like a bit of a no brainer upgrade for Razors now

I actually found my Las/TWplas Razorback to be great for protecting my backfield. I was laying down Lascannon shots down field at the enemy riptide while double tapping (and crossing my fingers as I overcharged) at Crisis suits on my flanks.

But those vanguards vets can take a 10 man unit with all storm shields and still have 3 attacks a piece. I'm sticking to those for now.

I'm glad you brought that up, I was wondering what to do with my BA assault marines with meltaguns since assault marines can't have meltaguns anymore.

Company Vet drops squads!

Ugh, nvm, Company Vets can't have jumppacks, NVM again BA ones can!

Pasek wrote:
Plasma gun costs 13 plasma pistol 7
grav gun costs 15 grav pistol 8
Can anyone enlighten me why does inferno pistol cost 20 and hand flamer 8 while meltagun is 17 and regular flamer 9?

The hand flamer/flamer one is because they really aren't all that different.

The inferno pistol one, I have no freakin clue, it actually makes me made they cost is absurd.

Pasek wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

The hand flamer/flamer one is because they really aren't all that different.

Half hits and -1S shouldnt be worth 1pts discount to me but well just give BA their uniq weapon so they cant use them.

As for Inferno pistols price beeing justified by option to fire in melee - every pistol has it, hasnt it? So it really bugs me as if they had normal price(~10) some cool builds like tactical sergeant with x2 inferno pistols(assault one can only take one:( ) could be viable and as for now you are always better off with meltaguns/combis

As for the vanguards, they seem better then dc. I would deffinetly give fist/hammer to sergeant as he has 3 attacks, some mix of axes/swords, then 2-3 guys with ss and some vanilla to soak up wounds.

But my favorite are company vets with JP(only BA thing) loaded with plasma and DSing with Captian with either term armour or JP into rapid fire range

I'm planning on giving my Sgt a Relic Blade and storm shield, not -1 to hit is nice. That Company vet squad your planning on taking is what I used to do with my BA, command squad. Always loved the 4x plasmaguns. It's a bit more expensive now. Especially if you decide to take those lovely 5pt storm shields.

So looking at What I think might be one of the better BA builds. What do you think?

Detachments: 2x Vanguard Detachments


Gabriel Seth - Blood Reaver,Bolt pistol (Warlord)

Sanguinary Priest - 2 Chainswords

Librarian - Force sword,Bolt pistol,Jump Pack, Powers: Shield/Unleash

4x CompanyVeterans w/JPs-:
Sgt: Combi-melta,Chainsword
3 Space Marine Veterans Chainsword,Meltagun

4x CompanyVeterans w/JPs-:
Sgt: Combi-melta,Chainsword
3 Space Marine Veterans Chainsword,Meltagun

10x Vanguard Veteran Squad w/JPs:
1 Veteran Sergeant: Pair of lightning claw
9 Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword,Storm shield

10x Vanguard Veteran Squad:
1 Veteran Sergeant: Pair of lightning claw,Meltabomb
9 Space Marine Veteran: 2 Chainswords

10x Vanguard Veteran Squad:
1 Veteran Sergeant: Pair of lightning claw,Meltabomb
9 Space Marine Veteran: 2 Chainswords

5x Vanguard Veteran Squad w/JPs:
1 Veteran Sergeant: 2x Plasma Pistol
4 Space Marine Veteran: 2 Plasma Pistols

Stormraven Gunship:
Twin AC, Twin MM, 2x SSMLs,2x HCBs

Stormraven Gunship:
Twin AC, Twin MM, 2x SSMLs,2x HCBs

 soomemafia wrote:
I haven't familiarized myself with the codex properly yet, so I have a question.

How do you fellas feel about Land Speeders now? I hear that their movement is now 16" (?), so their effective range is pretty notable.

I've really being wanting to bring 3x Landspeeders with double heavy flamer. that 20" move plus advance and flame stuff with 6d6 auto hits sounds amazing, but it also costs ~350pts

 Walnuts wrote:
Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?


Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.

But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.

31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.

Did you know it's 32pts for a Company Veteran with Jumppack Chainsword and Plasmagun?

 soomemafia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Ooooh good call with the Dante / intercesor combo. I was trying to think of a good way to combo his re-roll ability with shooty units and I was like, uhhh attack bikes maybe?


Yeah, the whole fall back shoot thing is very nice. Like, it's basically a tau move so it's gonna feel unusual doing it, but I can see the potential.

But maaan, they're 75 points each. That's sooooo glass cannon-ey. Attack bikes cost as much and put out just a lil less dakka, but are way more durable, and land speeders are just over 100 pts, but again, way more durable and put out more long range dakka.

31 pts for a Sternguard w/ combi plasma vs 38 for the hellblaster guy. Hellblaster guy has better range, better ap, and an extra wound. Sternguard has a bolter. Considering how expensive drop pods are, I might be more into the hellblasters here. WE'LL SEE ONCE I START GAMING, I GUESS.

Did you know it's 32pts for a Company Veteran with Jumppack Chainsword and Plasmagun?

Does anyone think that this unit might be worth it? They don't seem to be filling any necessary battlefield role the way I see it.

And another question, has anyone any good reason to field Baal Predators? I'm not overly enthusiastic with the thought of playing my two Baals as counts-as Razorbacks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. does anyone see any value in playing a Drop Pod list anymore? 105 points for better deployment when 90% of our army can deep strike without risk on 1st turn.

What are we supposed to use it for? Dreadnoughts I guess?

Pinpoint dropping plasmaguns are very good, you can really catch people offguard with characters not properly positioned, so elite units just brought down hard. You can make the unit whatever size you want too, 2-5 models. 65pts for a Sergeant with a combi-plasma and a single plasmagun guy.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Inceptor = Jetpack + double heavy bolter pistols. They are hilariously overpriced ATM, and unusable. 75 points is a joke, with plasma vets being 32, and other options being much tougher.

apparently this is wrong. My buddy who got the book over the weekend just shot me pictures of the jump pack primaris page and they are not 75 points a model. Don't know if it was a typo or they adjusted the points since playtesting was done, but they are only 53 points with their assault bolters. Still expensive but much more manageable and worth considering at 53 points per model.

The points from the starter are not official points, they are only usable in the starting force v starting force type scenarios.

So I had a game against Tau last night, didn't turn out so well.
My list:
Mephiston
Brother Corbulo
Chapin w/JP
10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV 9x(2xChainsword)(1xpowersword chainsword)
10x VV w/JPs 9x(Chainsword Stormshield) 1x(powersword stormshield)
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x meltagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
5x Company vets with 4x plasmagun and poweraxe pistol sgt
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles
Stormraven Twin AC, MM, HBs, missiles

His list:
Coldstar Commander MT, ATS
Darkstrider
3x quad fusion (2x marker drones each)
2x triple burstcannon with ATS (2x marker drones each)
1x triple Mpod with DC (2x marker drones)(warlord)
12x Gundrones
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
12 Striketeam with mpod turrent
10 Breachers with Devilfish
1x Riptide with HBC 2xfusion TL/ATS

We play Tactical Objectives with 6 objectives on hammer and anvil (This was very bad for me imo)

I went first (I think that was the right answer, because those stormravens and going to get blown up without a doubt.

Setup: Obejctives are mostly centerline on the table, from one end of the table to the other, With 3 being a little closer together on one end, so he took that deployment zone. 2 CMDRs on the table, 5 in reserve.

BA Turn1:
I fly up on my right flank, behind a building and some rock formations, so when my flyers get blown up I can disembark out of sight of most things. I DS meltas near the ripitde. I DS plasma and melta behind the coldstar, but realize the devilfish is closer, so I leave them there and focus down the devilfish (I think this was a mistake). I also dropped some VV with Shields to bubble wrap my stormravens some, but it doesn't really matter, and all that ends up happening is they get killed by burst cannons. I shoot and kill the devilfish. I end up assaulting and killing the breachers (mainly due to bad morale, I only killed 5 in closecombat with 10 VV. Should have been more like 8 but even there it's sad that that man points of closecombat guys can't even roll up breachers in one round. Riptide goes down to like 2 wounds despite 4 meltas 2x multimelta and 4x missiles into him (bad rolling). The gundrones that were surrounding the warlord get vaporized, although I over killed them and missed shooting the marker drones.

Tau Turn1:

Fusion suits drop, 2 in front of my storm ravens, one off to the left, near the rest of his army. Burst suit in my backfield(I don't really have a backfield with this list, but he was on the obj on my side of the table) Coldstar joins the Burstsuit.

Marklgihts up on first raven, down in 2 volleys of fusion, no marker on 2nd raven, down in one volley of fusion. I lose total of 4 guys from vehicle explosion. I lose VV with shields to burst cannons, I lose melta/plasma squad to concentrated fire from enemy striketeams/burst cannon/Mpod guys. I lost 4 from the other melta squad to the riptide even though he had 6's to hitIamazing rolls most of the game) I lost a couple stragglers from the disembarking squads. All in all I lost 26 of my 50 models that turn.

BA Turn2: Looking bad for your heroes. Mephiston run up and killed the riptide after failing to kill it with smite (cast 4++ on himself) and plasma pistol. Corbulo follows him. VV with shields (the other half) land to help with the commanders that kill the stormraven. I fail charge with them, the last models from the melta squad dies, but I do kill the riptide and charge some other commanders, just bouncing off their T5 3+, watching them fallback and just shoot me to death.

TLDR: I did manage to get some 11pts from objectives(even though I totally misplayed one and he was nice about letting me play it out how I misunderstood it. It was the 66 roll) He still beat me on points getting 12 or 13 at the end, although it didn't matter because he tabled me on bottom of 5.


Summmary of what I thought I did wrong, what was good/bad.

-Mephiston = beatstick, everyone saw this, he actually killed 3 commanders and the hurt riptide that game, each one in 1 round of combat.

-Brother Corbulo, unsure, he wasn't really in a place to help my guys mush and the were dropping like flies, so if just wasn't doing all that mush.

-Chaplin, love him, cheap, and rerolls all the time.

-Company vet special weapon squads, these are the MVPs imo, I'll probably take these more often.

-VV 2x chainsword, well fi you don't like tactical squad, these are basically combat tacticals, which was really ineffective. watching close combat attacks bounce off 4+ saves was very disheartening, especially when they move out of combat next turn and just shoot me, thanks darkstrider.

-VV w/ Stormshields: They did save meph's life on turn and survived, no sure how I feel, I think they needed power swords.

-Stormravens, love the idea of them, 2 games of trying them now, they get focused down pretty easy.

I think I needed to hold my melta/plasma squads in reserve for another turn, because I know he had to drop fusion guys to kill stormravens, so I could drop afterward and just kill them. I think 2 stormravens was too much. I also feel I need a lot more power swords/ lightning claws in my army.

 Carnage43 wrote:
VV with chainswords are meant for mulching hordes. Tau would be on the tougher side of what they should be fighting.

3+ to hit, and 3+ to wound, 4+ save, 4 attacks each right? With 10 VV charging you should be seeing 8-9 dead before morale checks and another 3-4 afterwards, that's a full squad assuming you all make it in. I mean, what more do you expect?

I find you have to be REALLY careful with assault troops, as wherever they end up after melee is where you will be shot at next turn. Melee provides almost no cover, especially against Tau. So all the damage you can really expect out of a melee unit is what they do on the charge.

I'm not 100% up to date on Tau rules, but the best trick I've found is trying to drag as many units as possible into the combat, more than you could possibly kill in 2-3 turns, the more the better really. This means they either have to disengage and not shoot, or cross their fingers and try to fight it out. Again, not really sure how this works with Tau's support fire rules though.

Between Darkstrider buffing his standard infantry and all the crisis suits, nothing could be locked down in combat, unless I managed to surround the infantry, which I don't really have enough models for that.

Bartali wrote:
@Coyote81 - The problem is you've got a bunch of expensive T4/W1/3+(+) that will drop like flies when shot at, ++ or no ++

Because of the durability problem I don't think BA jumpers work without Rhinos/Razors. They block fire lanes, tie up shooting units in combat, absorb overwatch etc etc

I'd dump all those Stormraven points into Razorbacks (personal pref Twin HF) and see how that works out

Yea I was just attempting to see if jumpers/stormravens could be remotely effective. I just feel they are too expensive and melee is only doable under 2 circumstances.
-You have hordes and hordes of bodies to trap people in.
-You deal substantial damage in the first round, hopefully just out and out killing them, which means you most likely need either really hard hitting things dealing multiple wounds for tough targets, and a crap ton of attacks for soft targets. I had the latter, but I was facing the former, so it did not work for me.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

Voss wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

The cost actually lines up fairly well against other CC dreads (though the helbrute has more attacks), Personally I'm not sold on dreads as a heavy weapon platform- they're just ridiculously expensive for that role, particularly with single shot weapons like multi-meltas.

Do you realize a Furioso with 2x fists heavy flamer, meltagun 195pts. Where as a Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon, heavy flamer, single DCCW is 177. 20pts less and I put a Twinlascannon on it. The dreadnought has 2 level movement and does not reroll to hit in combat, but he has the exact same close combat profile otherwise, despite having one arm wit a twin lascannon, which anyone will take over a meltagun any day of the week.

IMO opinion their is no challenge here, I'll pay 20 less points for having a lascannon and giving up 2 movement and rerolls to hit (which I get very often anyways from all the various support characters.
Furioso dreadnoughts need to have venerable upgrades for the points they pay (a venerable dradnought is 20 points more then a standard dread, and they get 2+ WS/BS and 6 FNP.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Bartali wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
good info soon.

Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'd just paint your Tacs helmets blue and take Devs instead with multiple Heavy Flamers (and the Cherub to double tap one of them)

I think the "loadout of choice" is 5 man, heavy flamer, combi-flamer in a razorback with twin assault cannons, a storm bolter and HK missile. It's a TON of firepower for like ~180-190 points. Also lets you fill out a battalion if you need troop fillers.

More like ~250pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:


This is a Brigade list I've been working on. Trying the age old method of more boots on the ground wins games. I know it only has 3 tanks, which may make them a liability. I ay take them out, but what should I replace them with? What are you thoughts on the list? Too many squishy bodies?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be "Hey, we tried too hard for balance, marines should be stronger than this" like in fifth.

Could be! We already have Razor Rush back in full force, maybe they will give us back Assault Marine troops!

It'll be nice to get free CPs, bug honestly, it's not even needed. Outrider Razorback Rush is going to be nice.

diepotato47 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.

Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.

If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either

This is a great example of where codex compliiant setup waste the BA special talents, if you have Sang Priest, it pays to have more melee weapons.

 Melissia wrote:
Besides, the priest still buffs the tactical squad making them deceptively stronger in melee than you'd expect tacs to be.

You could do this with devastators too..... Just trying to help him optimize, specifically because he asked. "hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules"

diepotato47 wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

diepotato47 wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Hmm, interesting to see what people are thinking about how Blood Angels are playing this edition so far. A bit nervous since I am building mine as a Codex Compliant Battle Company, hopefully I am not wasting all of the potential of the BA special rules.

Oh well, too late now, just finished buying the whole Company. Hoping that even though Tacticals don't seem to be in a real great spot, not using any named characters or real BA unique stuff will allow me to swarm the board with cheap Marines and wear things down with weight of fire and a combined arms approach.

If you are using Tactical Marines, consider running a Sanguinary Priest with them. I played a game yesterday where he brought back a model on 4/5 turns, and healed himself for the one he didn't resurrect a Marine. Excellent for board control, and charging a S5 was nothing to sniff at either

This is a great example of where codex compliiant setup waste the BA special talents, if you have Sang Priest, it pays to have more melee weapons.

And if you like running Codex Compliant Blood Angels, you may as well make the most of it, and enjoy playing the army you want to play, not the one that doesn't "waste special talents."

I'm sorry if I'm talking about optimizing and tactics in a tactics thread. Please don't throw the "Play the army you like playing" crap at me. I'm a huge lore junkie and love playing lore related lists (Thus why I feel people should be suing Assualt marines as the primary backed up with very few tacticals if any at all)

And with the Heavy Flamer, Flamer and Power Weapon on the Sergeant, you're putting out a lot of hurt against anything T4, plus you can bring back anybody special you happen to lose. Just keep to cover for 2+ Marines

Taking flamer weapons and hiding in cover doesn't seem like something that works so well together.

 buddha wrote:
Core of any SM list I've made so far keeps going back to 3 5 man tac squads with plasma (and combi plas) in assault cannon razorbacks. So efficient.

What about 3 man Assault squads with 2xplasmagun, plasma pistol?

Has anyone else tried out Bike Squads in this edition? I had a full 9 man bikesquad with 4+ inv save just did a pretty great job of tanking a mass of firepower and destroying units after unit against greyknights. My army was have jumpers half bikes.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Well, here is the 1,500 point list I will be running for my first game of 8th Edition Saturday, don't know what I will be playing yet.

HQ
-Captain w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter
-Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol

ELITE
-Company Ancient w/ Bolt Pistol
-Sanguinary Noviciate w/ Chainsword
-2x Company Veterans w/ Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
-Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Dread CCW, Storm Bolter

TROOPS
-5x Marines w/ Hand Flamer & Powerfist (Sgt), Flamer
-10x Marines w/ Hand Flamer & Powerfist (Sgt), Heavy Flamer, Flamer
-10x Marines w/ Combi-Plasma & Chainsword (Sgt), Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun

FAST
10x Assault Marines w/ Plasma Pistol & Lightning Claw (Sgt), 2x Plasma Pistol

HEAVY
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers

TRANSPORTS
-2x Rhinos w/ Storm Bolter

I am working on building the full 3rd Company, and my back story for it is that the Captain Machiavi of the 3rd gave up all rights to any of the Primaris reinforcements to be alloted a larger tithe of Gene-Seed and recruits from their successor Chapters and the other Companies. Along with a larger allotment of basic equipment, which is why my Company will not really have any of the unique Blood Angels equipment and units.

I imagine that even though the Blood Angels were grateful to receive reinforcements, unless Rowboat dropped off a massive amount of equipment and ammo to produce all of the new weapons, armor and supplies the Primaris Marines use, it will be a huge undertaking to integrate them into Chapter. The Chapter has been producing the same weapons with very little change for literally 10,000 years, having to learn how all the Primaris equipment operates, how to make it, understand the specs of the weapons and build the machines to make it all won't be a quick task. Along with potentially retraining all the Primaris Marines to better fit into the culture and mentality of the current Blood Angels Chapter.

Which is why I think the higher-ups of the Chapter like Dante would see it smart to get about half the Companies to full strength with regular Space Marines while they undertake the integration and training of brand new troops, and train the current troops to work with the capabilities of the new Primaris Marines as well.

Have to finish building the second Rhino, and have a few more bits to get onto the models (pin the Storm Bolter on the Captain, modify where the backpack goes onto for the current style, finish getting the backpacks in the Missile Devastators, and finish cleaning the mould lines off of the Jump Packs for the Assault Marines... plus two are missing arms), and I currently don't have the standard bits for the Company Ancient (will be ordering them online on the 1st).

Hoping to get all the weapon barrels drilled out this following week and start painting!

All that metal brings a smile to my face, looking good so far, looking forward to the paint job. Going blood angels, or a successor chapter?

Remtek wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).

I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?

Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?

In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.

Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.

I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?

The FAQ I've seen says he's wrong.
[url]https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/
[/url]

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range.

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.

 Melissia wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.

However, a more recent post suggests otherwise:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.

Or in other words, a Deathwatch Librarian can pick an choose whether or not to use the new librarian rules or the index ones for Deathwatch. Which I take as a permissive supporting my philosophy of "take the codex where it applies, the index where it doesn't".

I'm building my BA as generic space marines (no chapter tactics, but generic relics) from C:SM, save that I'm using the sanguinary discipline from the index and potentially sanguinary guard and sanguinary priests, as well. I don't like using named characters so those are out anyway for me.

Well if your group agrees, you can do whatever you want, even if it stretches the rules alot. My group will allow the deathwatch librarians to use either discipline, because Deathwatch don't have their own codex, so they can use either Librarian, but they can't mix and match. And especially not having them be a blood angel successor and using the C:SM datasheet and special rules, which is clearly called out in the C:SM as not allowed before the special rules start.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't see this what I'm doing as stretching the rules beyond GW's intent.

I quote from the same page:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Emphasis mine.

Blood Angels use a lot of units from the generic Space Marine section of the index. Games Workshop explicitly said that if you have the codex, you can take units from the codex that are updates to the generic units of the index.

You can use the space marines the same way you did in the index, which means you get none of the space marine codex special rules, just the updated datasheets. So no C:SM relics etc and such things from that book. Only datasheets, and especially not taking C:SM librarians using c:ssm benefits while taking the sanguinary discipline, that straight cheating imo. The deathwatch used the basic librarian discipline to start, so it makes since that they can take the expanded one. The blood angel sections says specifically that you have to take the sanguinary discipline, but that only counts if your a blood angel or successor. If you use any special rules form c:sm, your not a blood angel.





In other news, what are people's thoughts on having access to all of the primaris stuff? That repulsor tank seems rather cool, outclasses our baal predator by miles imo.