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Greetings!

I've looked around and I have not found much info on chaos cultists, save that the unit champions seem to have retained "champion of chaos" challenge rule. So do chaos marine champions still have the challenge rule? And is there a leaked data sheet for cultists? The Tzeench cultists box gives me hope that we might get a real boxed set with options. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Challenges are gone in 8th edition so no, champions, both cultists and marines don't have any Champion of Chaos rules. All the rules, including the indexes was leaked a while back. I managed to find a copy, but I don't remember where I downloaded it.

As far as I have seen the stats for the cultists are mostly the same though, except that there aren't any rules for marks anymore (although I suspect they will come later). The cultists also have access to "brutal assault weapons" which grants one additional attack in combat.

Marks now do nothing, to my knowledge.

Boon tables etc. are all gone.

Most of the factions are now very bland. Expect this to change with Codex re-releases.

All indexes and the rulebook are on a google doc, this is posted on the 8th ed rumours thread on dakka.

Cultists went up a point (though Autoguns are now a free swap) while Guardsmen went down a point. Marks are gone. Enjoy the balance of this new edition

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Cultists went up a point (though Autoguns are now a free swap) while Guardsmen went down a point. Marks are gone. Enjoy the balance of this new edition

Guardsman now cannot be taken in Blobs, and Chaos has some good buff characters to make cultists better. A better comparison for cultists would be conscripts. Who are 2 points cheaper, but have worse stats.

But in turn also have better buffs. I'm sure you've seen the Conscripts wall meme.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
But in turn also have better buffs. I'm sure you've seen the Conscripts wall meme.

They have cheaper buffs not sure they have much better buffs.

Cultists don't really have any buffs, do they?

zerosignal wrote:
Marks now do nothing, to my knowledge.

Boon tables etc. are all gone.

Most of the factions are now very bland. Expect this to change with Codex re-releases.

Marks give the specific God keyword which is good for running monofaction lists. It doesn't matter as much now as it will, but it's still an important point to consider.

zerosignal wrote:
Cultists don't really have any buffs, do they?

Abbadon gives them immunity to morale, and re-rolls to hit

Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, Lucius - give you re-roll 1s to hit

Dark Apostle- re-roll hits in the fight phase, ups LD to 9

Huron- gives them immunity to morale

Kharn - gives re-rolls to hit

Typhus- gives aura of mortal wounds

Sorcerers depend on legion but could give: Double move (warptime), +1 to hit rolls. -1 to hit (deathguard)

Skarbrand - +1 attack, immune to morale.

So Abbadon + Sorcerer (+1 to hit), means you can have large blobs hitting on a 3+ with all their attacks, re-rolling misses, that are immune to morale.

They also get weapon upgrades which can be useful.

And how pricey are those buffs? Compare those to a cheap Commissar and Priest, for what's basically immunity to morale (never lose more than 1) and +1 attack.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And how pricey are those buffs? Compare those to a cheap Commissar and Priest, for what's basically immunity to morale (never lose more than 1) and +1 attack.

You'll notice I said that Conscripts had cheaper buffs, just not better ones. Now cost may make it easier to build a good army with said buffs, but the buffs themselves are worse.

Commisar + Priest is way cheaper than Abbadon (187 points cheaper), but Abbadons buffs are objectively better than both combined. Straight re-rolls to hit (all phases all the time) is better than re-rolls on the charge only and +1 attack) and immune to morale is better than lose 1 model at most. Abbadon is also better in combat, will provide buffs to say 2 havoc squads with lascannons sitting behind your blob, and the Commisar and Priest won't do the same for shooting AM units. Abbadon is also much less vunerable to snipers.

I'm not arguing cultists are better than conscripts, or that they are supported more cheaply, just that they are not over costed since, they shoot and fight better than conscripts, and are great for bubble wrapping units that are also benefitting from character buffs.

You need to think of availability though too: Abaddon will likely be dropping in with a termi unit on turn 1 because, as you say, he is a close combat unit, this will likely not be within range of any cultists. On the other hand, commissars and priests are cheap non-unique characters that you can put in all your blob units whilst any of your Abaddon equivalent characters (allied in marines) don't have to baby sit. The closest things cultists have is an apostle who is about twice the price for a babysitter.

 mrhappyface wrote:
You need to think of availability though too: Abaddon will likely be dropping in with a termi unit on turn 1 because, as you say, he is a close combat unit, this will likely not be within range of any cultists. On the other hand, commissars and priests are cheap non-unique characters that you can put in all your blob units whilst any of your Abaddon equivalent characters (allied in marines) don't have to baby sit. The closest things cultists have is an apostle who is about twice the price for a babysitter.

I disagree, I think it will be very common to see him sitting back as a force multiplier for various other units as he will have more effect this way than he will trying to maul things. I think throwing him forward, unless you have a bunch of other units dropping in as well is a waste of this aura buffs. I think you are underrating how good stacking buffs on your army will be. I think he will commonly hang back and move up with a larger force throwing his benefits to multiple squads.

I think Rowboat will also often be "baby sitting" other units throwing off his buffs, and working as a counter charge unit. I think it will take time for people to adjust to how differently characters work.

For instance if you drop abbadon in and he fails his charge, he could die super quick for 250+ points.

As an example Abbadon + 60 cultists + 4 x 4 missile launcher havoc squads is 1213 which is quite a scary and durable fire base and still has a ton of points left over to spend on other scary threats. Which could include drop squads that could be options for abbadon to drop in with if that is a desirable situation.

Now I know why Dark Apostles are weaker and 4 pts pricier Chaplains.
(They have +1 Str, -1 damage so they wound T3 on 2+ but are 2 times worse against anything multi-wound and cost 76 instead of 72)

Csm losing ubergrit while grey hunters still have it
And possessed still being crap.

It's all Abaddon's fault (just like Land Speeders and Drop pods).

Cultists are a cheap unit you can babysit an objective with, while your more Elite units do heavy lifting.

Comparing them to Guard is only gonna get people upset.
Just like you can't compare Tacticals and CSM. Similar sure, but just play Loyalists if that's what you want!

Breng77 wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Cultists don't really have any buffs, do they?

Abbadon gives them immunity to morale, and re-rolls to hit

Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, Lucius - give you re-roll 1s to hit

Dark Apostle- re-roll hits in the fight phase, ups LD to 9

Huron- gives them immunity to morale

Kharn - gives re-rolls to hit

Typhus- gives aura of mortal wounds

Sorcerers depend on legion but could give: Double move (warptime), +1 to hit rolls. -1 to hit (deathguard)

Skarbrand - +1 attack, immune to morale.

So Abbadon + Sorcerer (+1 to hit), means you can have large blobs hitting on a 3+ with all their attacks, re-rolling misses, that are immune to morale.

They also get weapon upgrades which can be useful.

you forgot fabius bile
roll a d6 for each one on a 6 they die but then you either get +1a +1s or +1t XD

 JNAProductions wrote:
And how pricey are those buffs? Compare those to a cheap Commissar and Priest, for what's basically immunity to morale (never lose more than 1) and +1 attack.

Many of these will survive a few turns more of Sniper Fire however.

Considering how MUCH cheaper they are, you can easily take two or three for the same price as one buffing unit for Cultists.

Please don't try defend the new cultists. They are so bad as before. But now the cultists with melee weapons is more expensive.

And a guardsmen is cheaper.

Also guardsmen had cheaper buffs. And more objective. Because you will send your chaos lords or abbadon with cool units, not with cultists hahaha.

And guard have better weapon options, making them way more effective.

And guardmen have better wave.

So a guardmen cheaper than cultists is like an insult to our intellect haha


And now they have similar use since a marine can take guards with no need of add an allied detachment. Just like chaos can take cultists.


Also possessed are cosmic crap.....whaaaaat a surprise..... I never expected they give us possesses with terrible bad rules for their price....... Ironic mode off

 JNAProductions wrote:
And how pricey are those buffs? Compare those to a cheap Commissar and Priest, for what's basically immunity to morale (never lose more than 1) and +1 attack.

The conscript + commissar combo may be one of the most OP combinations in 8th. There is no way that a blob of 3 ppm models should be that durable.


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Nightlord1987 wrote:Comparing them to Guard is only gonna get people upset.
Just like you can't compare Tacticals and CSM. Similar sure, but just play Loyalists if that's what you want!

Guardsmen and cultists fill exactly the same battlefield role, just as tacticals and CSM fill more or less the same battlefield role. Obviously they have their differences, but they most certainly and should be compared to each other.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And how pricey are those buffs? Compare those to a cheap Commissar and Priest, for what's basically immunity to morale (never lose more than 1) and +1 attack.

The conscript + commissar combo may be one of the most OP combinations in 8th. There is no way that a blob of 3 ppm models should be that durable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nightlord1987 wrote:Comparing them to Guard is only gonna get people upset.
Just like you can't compare Tacticals and CSM. Similar sure, but just play Loyalists if that's what you want!

Guardsmen and cultists fill exactly the same battlefield role, just as tacticals and CSM fill more or less the same battlefield role. Obviously they have their differences, but they most certainly and should be compared to each other.

Comissars are make from wet paper. A unit of snipers can reliable take one a turn.

But I agree that for factions without snipers is a very very efective combo with small counter-tactics

Galas wrote:Commissars are make from wet paper. A unit of snipers can reliable take one a turn.

But I agree that for factions without snipers is a very very efective combo with small counter-tactics

1. Commissars are cheap enough to be spammable. That makes the "snipers can take them down" more or less irrelevant. And rest you assured, ONLY snipers are going to be taking them down.

2. Granted that snipers are technically a viable counter play, I still think that the ability is too good. It means that if you don't bring snipers, your options are:

A. Focus fire the blobs to the last man (a gigantic waste of firepower; this will lose you the game).

B. Ignore the blobs and practically NEVER breach the IG front line (this will also lose you the game).

Basically, commissars + conscripts turn the game into "take snipers or auto lose the game."

Commissars + conscripts are essentially the new flyrant. Either you've taken the thing that deals SPECIFICALLY with them, or else, you simply aren't going to win.

Commissars need to be nerfed. Imho, they should make it so that you can execute a model and treat the die roll as though it were a 1. That would be a decent buff without being OP.

 Traditio wrote:

Galas wrote:Commissars are make from wet paper. A unit of snipers can reliable take one a turn.

But I agree that for factions without snipers is a very very efective combo with small counter-tactics

1. Commissars are cheap enough to be spammable. That makes the "snipers can take them down" more or less irrelevant. And rest you assured, ONLY snipers are going to be taking them down.

2. Granted that snipers are technically a viable counter play, I still think that the ability is too good. It means that if you don't bring snipers, your options are:

A. Focus fire the blobs to the last man (a gigantic waste of firepower; this will lose you the game).

B. Ignore the blobs and practically NEVER breach the IG front line (this will also lose you the game).

Basically, commissars + conscripts turn the game into "take snipers or auto lose the game."

Commissars + conscripts are essentially the new flyrant. Either you've taken the thing that deals SPECIFICALLY with them, or else, you simply aren't going to win.

Commissars need to be nerfed. Imho, they should make it so that you can execute a model and treat the die roll as though it were a 1. That would be a decent buff without being OP.

I'm pretty sure you're overreacting here by saying Commissars+conscripts are the new flyrant. For one, the flyrant, although good, was never that crazy to begin with and at the time was more or less the only competitive crutch the Nids had to stand on, so that's why it stood out so much compared to the rest of their army. Secondly, the Flyrant actually did consistent damage, which conscripts really don't, even with orders. Only hitting on 5's and being stuck with S3 for both shooting and CC means they are fairly limited in scope to doing damage to anything above the ordinary infantry, and many opposing hordes can cut them down while fast armies can potentially bypass them (trust me, harlequins can do that, their starweavers can fly over the conscript screen and dakka down the commissar, that's how they got my warboss). Just because your marines might have some issues with them doesn't automatically warrant the nerf bat, especially if you decide not to bring potential counters like snipers.

Grimskul wrote:I'm pretty sure you're overreacting here by saying Commissars+conscripts are the new flyrant. For one, the flyrant, although good, was never that crazy to begin with and at the time was more or less the only competitive crutch the Nids had to stand on, so that's why it stood out so much compared to the rest of their army. Secondly, the Flyrant actually did consistent damage, which conscripts really don't, even with orders. Only hitting on 5's and being stuck with S3 for both shooting and CC means they are fairly limited in scope to doing damage to anything above the ordinary infantry, and many opposing hordes can cut them down while fast armies can potentially bypass them (trust me, harlequins can do that, their starweavers can fly over the conscript screen and dakka down the commissar, that's how they got my warboss). Just because your marines might have some issues with them doesn't automatically warrant the nerf bat, especially if you decide not to bring potential counters like snipers.

1. It's not "like snipers." Snipers are literally the only counterplay, and some armies don't even have snipers. You can tell me that I should bring snipers. I don't think that I should have to do that (the 7th ed. gladius strike force formation established that scouts are an auxillary unit, not a core part of the army), but fine, let's assume that I should. What are you going to tell a CSM player?

2. You're underestimating just how many models the IG player is likely to have on the field. Even at 1000 points, do you know how many conscripts can fit on a deployment zone, assuming terrain and a 6 X 4 table? Especially taking into account spacing? No, harlequins and similar models are not just going to ignore the screen. Unless they've wasted a bunch of fire power specifically for that purpose (and harlequins are not even likely to have enough shots for the purpose), they likely won't have the space to do so.

3.You're also tailing to take into account the fact that falling back is a thing now. Let's suppose you get your genestealers or your harlequins or your khorne berserkers or whatever else to the IG line. Have fun charging the 30 man conscript blob. Good job. Whether or not you wipe that 90 point squad, whatever squad YOU charged with IS going to get wiped. Because if you didn't wipe the squad, the conscripts are going to fall back, and buckets of dice are going to be thrown at those models.

4. You are also gravely underestimating the damage capacity of conscripts. S3 can wound T5 on 5s now. It can wound anything above that on 6s. Do you know how many shots a conscript blob can fire within rapid fire range, especially when the company commander is ordering them to FRFSRF?

5. You are also failing to take into account that conscripts, while they do have serious damage potential, are not good specifically because of their damage potential. You are paying 3 ppm to prevent the opponent from getting to the stuff that you actually care about and that's going to be dealing real damage. 3 ppm conscripts are strong because it means that your manticores and wyverns are virtually untouchable to CC units.

At the end of the day, no, it's not just my army that's going to have trouble with IG under the current rules. I think that most armies would have serious problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum:

Grimskul:

You play orks, right?

I don't think that you'd be able to beat IG with the 8th edition Ork codex. You would be at a massive disadvantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, I did the math.

It would take 45 BS 4 bolt gun shots to take down a tactical squad in a single turn, assuming they don't benefit from cover.

Assuming cover, it would take 90 boltgun shots at BS 4 to take down a 5 man tactical squad.

It would take over 76 boltgun shots to take down 29 conscripts.

That 90 point conscript blob is almost as durable as a tactical squad in cover.

That's just not right.

 Traditio wrote:
3.You're also failing to take into account the fact that falling back is a thing now. Let's suppose you get your genestealers or your harlequins or your khorne berserkers or whatever else to the IG line. Have fun charging the 30 man conscript blob. Good job. Whether or not you wipe that 90 point squad, whatever squad YOU charged with IS going to get wiped. Because if you didn't wipe the squad, the conscripts are going to fall back, and buckets of dice are going to be thrown at those models.

To be fair they dont have to fall back, you can just remove the models next to the unit attacking so that they are more then 4" away combat ends because no models are with in 1" of eachother. Then they can FRFSRF.

Also to the point about the orks. 20 Boyz would kill 29 conscripts in a single turn with the right buffs.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Also to the point about the orks. 20 Boyz would kill 29 conscripts in a single turn with the right buffs.

I'm not saying it's impossible.

But at the end of the day, the question is always going to be "Is it worth it?"

The answer is usually going to be no. Even if the boyz can kill those conscripts, they're getting wiped off of the map on the next turn.

be interesting how they price the renegade stuff in the the FW index for chaos

I can bet how all the renegade will be more expensive than actual imperial guard stuff hahahahha
Of course with less bs because reasons.


Also hope they release snipers for orks and chaos. Now snipers look pretty esencial in this edition. And who could spam them or put the better sniper? Surprise... The imperium..... Surely no one expected hahaha