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INTRODUCTION
Here are two charts for weapon comparison. The number indicated is the point investment necessary to wound (after save) a model in the categories listed in the left column.

I can compare the weapons and units you want. Feel free to ask!

There are charts with the calculation based on model price with its weapon and charts based on the price of the weapons alone (abstraction and sometimes an approximation, but useful nonetheless in certain cases).

1st best weapon
2nd best weapon
3rd best weapon
4th best weapon

CONCLUSIONS
(will be added over time)

Q. Autocannon or heavy bolter or lascannon?
R. One heavy bolter and one lascannon
The autocannon is not competitive. When it is better than the heavy bolter, the lascannon is better, and when it is better than the lascannon, the heavy bolter is better.

Q. Meltagun or plasma gun?
R. Plasma gun.
The meltagun is an effective weapon, but the overcharged plasma gun is better in all scenarios (and have +6'' of short range). There is no reason to take the meltagun.

Q. Flamer or heavy flamer?
R. Flamer, but the heavy flamer is good too.
The flamer is a better investment than the heavy flamer in all categories except against 2++ armour when we look only at the price of the weapons themselves. But when we take into consideration the relative cost (with the model carrying it considered as a tax), one is better than the other half of the time, so it's pretty even. (Remember you have to use a DKoK HWT to have access to heavy flamers that way).

Q. Should I play DKoK engineers?
R. Yes.
The combat Krieg shotgun of DKoK engineers (with carcass shot) ranks surprisingly high in many categories. Since its power is independent of armour penetration (it has none), it is a good weapon against units with an invulnerable save in contrast to other weapons that rely on armour penetration. This weapon is also more easy to spam (you can have a unit of 10 engineers) but like the plasma gun, it ''gets hot'', so it needs to be within an aura of re-rolling 1's (for that, unfortunately, their only option is Yarrick).

Q. Is the grenade launcher worth it?
R. Not really. See the corresponding chart.

Q. GW Manticore or GW Basilisk?
R. Manticore, surprisingly better in all categories. If you use FW, obviously the batteries are better because they are cheaper, but even then GW Manticore ranks high.

OTHER STATISTICAL CONCLUSIONS
(will be added over time)

Q. Is it worth it to take a company commander (30pts) to help nearby units to re-roll 1s to hit or to wound?
R. Never.
First of all, the better the dice roll needed, the better the added bonus.
A weapon that shoots at bs2 is 13,8% more effective with this re-roll while it is only 2,8% more effective if it shoots at bs6. This means that you should choose the order that benefits the better roll. For example, you should use to wound re-roll (+11,1% of effectiveness) for a unit of lascannons shooting at bs4+ and wounding on 3+ instead of the to hit re-roll (+8,3%).
But is it worth it at all to take a company commander to do that? The model cost 30pts. If you plan to use these orders on 2x3 lascannons, it means you pay an extra 5pts for each lascannon (30pts/6lascannons). In this situation, it means the lascannons are 20,8% more expensive (5pts/24pts). Yet there is no situation in which the company commander can make the lascannons more than 13,8% more effective. This means it is never worth it to take a company commander only for these re-rolls, be it for lascannon or any other HWT configuration.
What about conscripts, who usually hit and wound on a 5+? The re-roll bonus for a 5+ roll is 5,5% in effectiveness. For the company commander to be worth it, it has to make the models it helps less than 5,5% more expensive. If he gives order to 30 conscripts, he makes them 33,3% more expensive (4pts instead of 3pts). If he gives order to 100 conscripts, he makes them 10% more expensive (3.3pts instead of 3pts). This is the best scenario, and even then, it's not worth it.
The only good offensive order is FRFSRF since it makes the ordered unit +100% effective. Only 11 conscripts are needed (alive, each turn) for the company commander to make its points back. This is the way to play him.

Q. Isn't he worth it in support of plasma gun units to help mitigitate the loss of plasma wielders?
R. Surprinsingly, no.
Let's consider 6 plasmas in 2x6 squads of Elysian SWT at 102pts (deep strike, bs4+, 5pts base before upgrades). I prefer to use them since they don't have the 1:1 restriction of Tempestus command Squad with their Prime.
The price of a company commander combo would be 102+30 = 132, which makes the squad 29,5% more expensive. (I deduce from the commander's price its own shooting contribution to the table and its morale Elysian aura buff. He costs 40pts, let's say he's 30 like a regular AM one.)
What brings the company commander? He prevents the squad of losing 16,7% of its effectiveness each turn, though even with him you still have a 2,8% chance of overheating (so let's say he gives a 14% bonus).
So the unit arrives and shoots with the commander: you have the reroll bonus of 8,3% (bs4).
Next turn, if everyone survives, you have a bonus of 14% in effectiveness (the survivor) + the regular 8,3%, which is a total of 22,3%.
At the moment, the benefit of the commander is an average of 15,3% in effectiveness (8,3% + 22,3% / 2 turns). But he made the squads 29,5% more expensive.
Maybe after five turns of shooting, the commander will have made its point back, but let's be honest : if you manage to shoot two turns, you are already lucky.
It is always better to buy more plasma guns than to buy commanders to help the ones you already have.

Interesting analysis. Does the conclusion that it's not worth it to take a commander to reroll ones include mitigate the loss of plasma wielders who roll 1 while firing their guns overcharged?

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
OTHER STATISTICAL CONCLUSIONS
(will be added over time)

Q. Is it worth it to take a company commander (30pts) to help nearby units to re-roll 1s to hit or to wound?
R. Never.
First of all, the better the dice roll needed, the better the added bonus.
A weapon that shoots at bs2 is 13,8% more effective with this re-roll while it is only 2,8% more effective if it shoots at bs6. This means that you should choose the order that benefits the better roll. For example, you should use to wound re-roll (+11,1% of effectiveness) for a unit of lascannons shooting at bs4+ and wounding on 3+ instead of the to hit re-roll (+8,3%).
But is it worth it at all to take a company commander to do that? The model cost 30pts. If you plan to use these orders on 2x3 lascannons, it means you pay an extra 5pts for each lascannon (30pts/6lascannons). In this situation, it means the lascannons are 20,8% more expensive (5pts/24pts). Yet there is no situation in which the company commander can make the lascannons more than 13,8% more effective. This means it is never worth it to take a company commander only for these re-rolls, be it for lascannon or any other HWT configuration.
What about conscripts, who usually hit and wound on a 5+? The re-roll bonus for a 5+ roll is 5,5% in effectiveness. For the company commander to be worth it, it has to make the models it helps less than 5,5% more expensive. If he gives order to 30 conscripts, he makes them 33,3% more expensive (4pts instead of 3pts). If he gives order to 100 conscripts, he makes them 10% more expensive (3.3pts instead of 3pts). This is the best scenario, and even then, it's not worth it.
The only good offensive order is FRFSRF since it makes the ordered unit +100% effective. Only 11 conscripts are needed (alive, each turn) for the company commander to make its points back.

You forgot the scenario of using the re-roll to hit order for plasma, in which case it becomes brilliant as you are not cooking your guardsmen as often while using the more powerful plasma profile. Also the math on a 30 point unit (the commander) is really not as straight forward as you present it. If an extra lascannon hit/wound is the difference between a close combat monster making it into your line or not while with strict math hammer the commander isn't worth it, that 30 points may have just literally saved you the game. Math hammer works well high point values, whether a single high costed model/unit or when dealing with entire armies but it doesn't scale as well to cheap units that provide support to the greater army.

Besides... you NEED HQ's. Unless you want to spam Tank Commanders, there isn't really a lot of other valid options over the Company Commander (if you aren't running Scions).

I know common knowledge accepts grenade launchers are garbage, but I'm curious where they'd fall on this chart.

I think this is pretty clear evidence that plasmaguns are unbalanced and personally I think that plasmaguns don't need a points increase but plasmagun/pistols should be str6 base and str7 overcharged. which will make meltaguns better vs plasmaguns as they should be for the cost. and also make grenade launchers comparable (although I think frag grenades should be 2d3 shots instead of d6).

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

Q. Meltagun or plasma gun?
R. Plasma gun.
The meltagun is an effective weapon, but the overcharged plasma gun is better in all scenarios (and have +6'' of short range). There is no reason to take the meltagun.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.

I'm just going by this list (from 3++), which indicates that the meltagun at optimum range is better than a rapid-firing, overcharging plasmagun against several targets.

The plasmagun is definitely better as an all-rounder, but it still loses to the meltagun against many targets.

I would still choose a meltagun in specific scenarios over a bunch of overcharged plasmaguns. I personally have horrible luck with rolling and have lost quite a few models to 1s.

 Stus67 wrote:
I would still choose a meltagun in specific scenarios over a bunch of overcharged plasmaguns. I personally have horrible luck with rolling and have lost quite a few models to 1s.

My only issue with meltas is getting them in range. The nice thing about plasma is that I can deep strike Scions into rapid-fire range, whereas meltaguns wouldn't be within half-range.

Also, it's a little weird, but I sometimes find it hard to find the extra points for meltas. I know it's only about 5pts more than plasma, but a lot of m lists end up on the dot with plasma and there's not really any excess stuff I can get rid of to make room for meltas.

 vipoid wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

Q. Meltagun or plasma gun?
R. Plasma gun.
The meltagun is an effective weapon, but the overcharged plasma gun is better in all scenarios (and have +6'' of short range). There is no reason to take the meltagun.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.

I'm just going by this list (from 3++), which indicates that the meltagun at optimum range is better than a rapid-firing, overcharging plasmagun against several targets.

The plasmagun is definitely better as an all-rounder, but it still loses to the meltagun against many targets.

Against which targets?
There's is no error int the charts presented above.

GhostRecon wrote:
I know common knowledge accepts grenade launchers are garbage, but I'm curious where they'd fall on this chart.

Here's in the OP a chart comparing the grenade launcher (two profiles), the lasgun (two profiles) and the heavy bolter using the price of the model + its weapon.
The heavy bolter is a better choice by far, though in two categories the krak shot ranks first.
(Against marines, the heavy bolter is still better at bs5+ when moving and shooting).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vonjankmon wrote:


You forgot the scenario of using the re-roll to hit order for plasma, in which case it becomes brilliant as you are not cooking your guardsmen as often while using the more powerful plasma profile. Also the math on a 30 point unit (the commander) is really not as straight forward as you present it. If an extra lascannon hit/wound is the difference between a close combat monster making it into your line or not while with strict math hammer the commander isn't worth it, that 30 points may have just literally saved you the game. Math hammer works well high point values, whether a single high costed model/unit or when dealing with entire armies but it doesn't scale as well to cheap units that provide support to the greater army.

Concerning the lascannon scenario, you can buy 1.25 lascannon for that price. A commander giving re-roll 1s on 6 lascannons is equivalent to 1.00 lascannon. Not worth it in my book. But then, as Doctoralex said, you need HQs anyway. I would go for model like Harker that can affect more models with that bonus. To make its point back, Harder has to be within 6'' of 300pts of units shooting, which is not too difficult in an AM army.

Let's consider 6 plasmas in 2x6 squads of Elysian SWT at 102pts (deep strike, bs4+, 5pts base before upgrades). I prefer to use them since they don't have de 1:1 restriction of Tempestus command Squad with the Prime.
The price of a company commander combo would be 102+30 = 132, which makes the squad 29,5% more expensive. (I deduce from the commander's price its own shooting contribution to the table and its morale bonus. He costs 40pts, let's say he's 30 like a regular AM one.)
What brings the company commander? He prevents the squad of losing 16,7% of its effectiveness each turn, though even with him you still have a 2,8% chance of overheating (so let's say he gives a 14% bonus).

The unit arrives and shoots with the commander: you have the reroll bonus of 8,3% (bs4).
Next turn, if everyone survives, you have a bonus of 14% in effectiveness (the survivor) + the regular 8,3%, which is a total of 22,3%.
At the moment, the benefit of the commander is an average of 15,3% in effectiveness (8,3% + 22,3% / 2 turns). But he made the squads 29,5% more expensive.
Maybe after five turns of shooting, the commander will have made its point back, but let's be honest : if you manage to shoot two turns, you are already lucky.

When I read your comment, I thought you had a point, but in the end, it's just better to buy more plasma guns than to buy commanders to help the squads you already have. (It's even worse when you take into account the lasguns of the above scenario, since they do not get the 14% bonus at all).

Really good thread, thanks for doing so much number work and presenting it so well! I'd be interested as to how mortar teams, conscripts, wyverns, heavy bolter teams and punisher vultures stack up against infantry.

Seriously thanks for this though!

 DoomMouse wrote:
Really good thread, thanks for doing so much number work and presenting it so well! I'd be interested as to how mortar teams, conscripts, wyverns, heavy bolter teams and punisher vultures stack up against infantry.

Seriously thanks for this though!

Thanks!
Here we go. I made the comparison with the weapons themselves not taking into account the price of the platform since they differ too much, but I compared the heavy bolter and the mortar in this manner too.
Although the twin gatling cannon is impressive, remember that the price of a vulture and its weapon is 280% more expensive than its weapon alone (+112pts for a 40pts weapon), while a HWT with mortar is 80% more expensive than its weapon alone (+4pts for a 5pts weapon). Yet the punisher gatling cannon is not 3.5 times better than the mortar. As for survivability, remember that for the price of a vulture, you can have 17 mortars (in cover or out of line of sight), which means 34 wounds.

Conclusions
Against guardsmen (or dark eldar infantry), take the mortar if you know there's will be LoS blocking terrains. Otherwise, take the Vulture. My personal favourite is the twin assault cannon tarantula though.
Sadly, the wyvern and the heavy quad launcher are not good.

I'm not sold on the 'always take more men' conclusion - even though I usually try to do just that!

At some point you run out of space on the board, especially if terrain is dense, and you can't concentrate all of your units in one area. That's when you want a Commander to give you rerolls and get maximum use out of the units that you can employ. Adding more men isn't efficient in that situation because they won't be able to engage optimal targets, and possibly won't be able to engage anything at all. It helps to have a few 'elite' (as elite as Guard can be!) units that pay a premium price to concentrate combat power on a narrow frontage.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

Q. Meltagun or plasma gun?
R. Plasma gun.
The meltagun is an effective weapon, but the overcharged plasma gun is better in all scenarios (and have +6'' of short range). There is no reason to take the meltagun.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true.

I'm just going by this list (from 3++), which indicates that the meltagun at optimum range is better than a rapid-firing, overcharging plasmagun against several targets.

The plasmagun is definitely better as an all-rounder, but it still loses to the meltagun against many targets.

Against which targets?
There's is no error int the charts presented above.

It gives the target at the top of the chart I linked.

Bear in mind that this isn't related to points investment vs. damage but rather damage per weapon.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Really good thread, thanks for doing so much number work and presenting it so well! I'd be interested as to how mortar teams, conscripts, wyverns, heavy bolter teams and punisher vultures stack up against infantry.

Seriously thanks for this though!

Thanks!
Here we go. I made the comparison with the weapons themselves not taking into account the price of the platform since they differ too much, but I compared the heavy bolter and the mortar in this manner too.
Although the twin gatling cannon is impressive, remember that the price of a vulture and its weapon is 280% more expensive than its weapon alone (+112pts for a 40pts weapon), while a HWT with mortar is 80% more expensive than its weapon alone (+4pts for a 5pts weapon). Yet the punisher gatling cannon is not 3.5 times better than the mortar. As for survivability, remember that for the price of a vulture, you can have 17 mortars (in cover or out of line of sight), which means 34 wounds.

Conclusions
Against guardsmen (or dark eldar infantry), take the mortar. Otherwise, take the heavy bolter. For tougher targets, take something else, like a lascannon.
The wyvern and the heavy quad launcher are not good.

Great thread, thank you. Sadly this is what I suspected that the Wyvern just was not worth it anymore compared to units that fulfill a similar role. I was mentally comparing it just to simple lasguns and thinking, why would I pay for a Wyvern when I can FRFSRF?

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Great thread, thank you. Sadly this is what I suspected that the Wyvern just was not worth it anymore compared to units that fulfill a similar role. I was mentally comparing it just to simple lasguns and thinking, why would I pay for a Wyvern when I can FRFSRF?

Because a Wyvern can fire at enemies 48" away from behind LoS-blocking cover?

 Saber wrote:
I'm not sold on the 'always take more men' conclusion - even though I usually try to do just that!

At some point you run out of space on the board, especially if terrain is dense, and you can't concentrate all of your units in one area. That's when you want a Commander to give you rerolls and get maximum use out of the units that you can employ. Adding more men isn't efficient in that situation because they won't be able to engage optimal targets, and possibly won't be able to engage anything at all. It helps to have a few 'elite' (as elite as Guard can be!) units that pay a premium price to concentrate combat power on a narrow frontage.

I agree, and I think the Combat Engineers are the cream of the crop when it comes to concentrating firepower. Load them in a dual HF Chimera and you have a ton of concentrated damage potential. Give them two meltas and they can engage any target.

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Great thread, thank you. Sadly this is what I suspected that the Wyvern just was not worth it anymore compared to units that fulfill a similar role. I was mentally comparing it just to simple lasguns and thinking, why would I pay for a Wyvern when I can FRFSRF?

Because a Wyvern can fire at enemies 48" away from behind LoS-blocking cover?

Well yes, but as Basilisks and Manticores are almost an auto include for me, and a big horde that will be a good target for the Wyvern's 4d6 probably wont be out of LoS.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I agree, and I think the Combat Engineers are the cream of the crop when it comes to concentrating firepower. Load them in a dual HF Chimera and you have a ton of concentrated damage potential. Give them two meltas and they can engage any target.

Combat Engineers? Are they a FW unit?

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I agree, and I think the Combat Engineers are the cream of the crop when it comes to concentrating firepower. Load them in a dual HF Chimera and you have a ton of concentrated damage potential. Give them two meltas and they can engage any target.

Combat Engineers? Are they a FW unit?

Yes they are from the DKoK army list.

Ah, I'll have to look them up. Cheers.

 vipoid wrote:
Ah, I'll have to look them up. Cheers.

It's the ''Carcass shot'' entry in the charts.

Can you do a comparison of all the artillery?

Which weapon would you like to see? In answer to DoomMouse, I compared mortar, wyvern mortar, quad mortar.
Do you mean Earthshaker, Medusa, Manticore? I'll add them!

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Which weapon would you like to see? In answer to DoomMouse, I compared mortar, wyvern mortar, quad mortar.
Do you mean Earthshaker, Medusa, Manticore? I'll add them!

Yes please

Thanks very much for the answers! Going to keep watching anything else you work out

Very useful information. Thanks much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also would you mind adding hot shot lasguns to the mix. I am currious about the effectiveness of DEATH KORPS
GRENADIER STORM SQUAD if I want to make a battalion.

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Great thread, thank you. Sadly this is what I suspected that the Wyvern just was not worth it anymore compared to units that fulfill a similar role. I was mentally comparing it just to simple lasguns and thinking, why would I pay for a Wyvern when I can FRFSRF?

Because a Wyvern can fire at enemies 48" away from behind LoS-blocking cover?

SHH don't tell them they'll buy all of our Wyverns

One thing in the Heavy Bolter vs Autocannon vs Lascannon part is that the Autocannons have the same range as a Lascannon. Heavy Bolters don't have a range advantage there.