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I noticed they didn't fix the fixed Crawlers. Lol.
So there are two things that come out of this as a consequence of RAW.
1) Stratagems apply to vehicle models, not units.
2) Scryerskull lets you shoot again for 1CP. (It says "shoot with an Adeptus Mechanicus unit..." not "when shooting with an Adeptus Mechanic unit...")
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 21:51:11
Mechanicus Knights are super-heavy Lords of War. They are the fastest, most powerful non-character units in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex, if not the game. However, because they lack the <Forge World> and Adeptus Mechanicus keywords, they are denied key synergies with the rest of the codex. Thus, you will often be fielding Knights with AdMech in support rather than the other way around.
Weapons For melee weapons, Feet are your best option for everything up to TEQs (surprising, I know). Beyond that, the Gauntlet is optimal; the mortal wounds from throwing vehicles can really build up. Chainsword is only better than Feet against low toughness, high wound targets (such as Tau Commanders), and only then just barely.
For ranged weapons, Avenger is surprisingly strong against a variety of targets, from GEQs up to TEQs and Battlesuits. Thermal Cannon (TC) is your best shooting option against tanks T8 and above, but underperforms otherwise. Rapid-fire Battle Cannon (RFBC) is slightly more consistent in the T6-T7 range, but it is very expensive and finds itself in an awkward spot. You see, in order for a Knight to make its points back, it NEEDS to get into melee combat, but most of what you're paying for in the RFBC is its range.
As far as carapace weapons go, Stormspear is the best choice in every case. Don't bother taking the Meltagun; it's overpriced for what it does.
Knight Setups 1) Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear (516)
The standard to hold all other Knights up against. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry. Gauntlet and Stormspear are the strongest anti-tank.
2) Crusader with TC (512)
A more shooty option, which is useful against Conscript blobs and Green Tide armies that can deny almost the entire backline. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry, and TC performs anti-tank. Don't be afraid to get into close combat with this unit! You can always fall back and shoot, as I will explain below.
Add a Stormspear for a bit more anti-tank, but be wary of over-investing.
If you want to use an RFBC, you would use it here. However, as mentioned above, you will be wasting points.
3) Errant with Gauntlet and Stormspear (480)
A dedicated tank-hunter and the cheapest competitive setup. Feet perform anti-infantry, while the rest of the setup is just brutal anti-tank.
Don't bother with the Gallant. It's cheap, and you get what you pay for. It's still WS3+ and A4 like the other Knights, and the Chainsword is redundant. A waste of points. The Paladin is also subpar because it ties a long-ranged ranged weapon to a melee weapon; if you want an RFBC, opt for a Crusader instead.
As for how to build an army, there are two simple choices: two Knights or three? If two, you can have a sizable AdMech Battalion with Crawlers and Kastelans to diversify your army. If three, you will still have an AdMech Battalion and an additional 3 CP, but the Battalion is strictly for screening only.
Strategy and Tactics When using Knights, you always employ a dominant strategy: kill everything that kills Knights, then table your opponent. Of course, this plan is at its most vulnerable early on. You will want to screen it from alpha strikes, especially melta squads. However, despite your best efforts, being shot at is inevitable, so spam Rotate Ion Shields if your opponent aims anything with more than AP-1 at your Knights. Each turn, you should also be repairing with your Enginseers; Tech-Adept allows you to repair 2 wounds (4 with Necromechanic), and if any of your Knights go under 13 wounds, use Resurgent Machine Spirit; it's worth it.
When maneuvering your Knights, always be looking to get a charge in. You deal terrifying damage in CC, and most things that threaten you aren't good at fighting a Knight. When positioning yourself, you want to do these things:
1) Keep your Knight between the Enginseer and the enemy. This is especially helpful early on, but not an absolute must.
2) Cover up your legs if possible. No, seriously. You don't ever want to use Knight of the Cog, and +1 Sv for standing behind something is useful.
3) Tying up as many enemy units in fighting as possible with your consolidation move. Basically, after you make a charge, move within a hair's breadth under 1" of your enemy. After fighting, consolidate 3" to move less than a hair's breadths under 1" from the enemy. The goal here is to get within 1" of as many shooting enemy units as possible. This "sliding" technique lets you tie up additional enemies without having to take Overwatch; remember, the more enemies falling back, the less shooting you take.
4) Being in the ideal place for the next charge. You want to consider where you will be moving next turn. Nothing can really outrun an Imperial Knight, so you may want to move "through" enemy units using the Super-Heavy Walker rule to be closer to the next target. You also want to take advantage of terrain and LOS whenever possible.
To bring it all together, every turn, you can fall back 12" to a hair's breath under 2" from the enemy on any side, shoot, then charge back in under 1", pile-in 3", fight, then consolidate 3".
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 18:38:19
If we're talking tournaments, it does seem hard to compete unless the gloves come off. We've long been on the fence about Scryerskull's wording, but we may just have to insist it works as written. 1 CP to make any unit shoot, once per phase.
But yeah. I don't see us beating the now ironically nicknamed Lemons or Guard artillery spam (which is now virtually all AP-3).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought: If 8E is going to be building lists around countering Guard, just like how 7E was about countering Eldar, we should take a page from the armies that did thrive in that environment.
In such a case, 100% Stygies armies or Knights-Stygies armies might be superior to the Mars-Stygies mix. I mean, Kastelans might have to go, since the new Guard artillery and tanks just wreck them. But we need something to counter infantry, and that means Wardens or Icarus (which is still 10 shots, mind you).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/02 19:33:03
So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?
In a competitive setting, you play to your greatest strength. Now that there is a shooting army that outranges, outguns, and outnumbers us, it is increasingly questionable if trying to outshoot them remains the better strategy. Going 100% Stygies allows us to outlast them. Going Knights allows us to take them in CC. As I point out in my Knight write-up above, most things that can threaten a Knight in shooting cannot threaten it in fighting. Knights can carve through Lemon Russes; the Errant build I posted deals an average of 19.3 wounds per round.
But... how do we get to the juicy center? Are the stomp attacks and guns going to be able to cut through the chaff faster than their guns cut through the Knights?
Gauntlet and Stormspear, on average, kill a Lemon Russ in one turn. If the other gun is an Avenger, you are killing one minimum squad a turn. If it is a TC, you are crippling another Lemon Russ. Three Knights kill and cripple all of the Lemon Russes you would expect to be able to, if only you get in range in time. That means aggressive deployment and screening to prevent deep strikes. You also use Ion Shields, Tech-Adept, Resurgent Machine Spirit, etc. to stay alive.
You also also look to do something lame like using Dragoons in concert with a pair of Knights. The Knight charges a unit, and the other two Dragoons "pin" it in place. Makes it impossible for them to shoot you if done correctly. ("But we can't shoot the Knight, he's too close to that Razorback!")
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 05:52:32
SilverAlien wrote: Well... yes the gauntlet kills russes of course, but that'll be turn 3 or 4 at the earliest.
Also an avenger kills a little less the. 7 IG or conscripts per turn. I'd assume most lists that we would be worried about run 80-100 at minimum.
It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 06:15:42
Suzuteo wrote: It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.
Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.
As mentioned above, another neat trick is to infiltrate the Dragoons behind a Conscript blob. On your turn, charge everything at it, being sure to surround it. The Conscripts cannot escape, and assuming the tanks and artillery aren't Valhallan (they will probably be Tallarn or Catachan), they can't shoot your Knights or Dragoons. The next turn, the Knights can walk through the blobs and now they're in the back line.
Send in the Next Wave complicates things, but it costs a ton just to bring back Commissar-less Conscripts.
But in any competive setting they are spread so you cant deepstrike behind them. 30 scripts and reallt spread out, then all the tanks behind them spaced out evenly to never allow you within 9 inches of their backs
Actually, I realize what you mean now. Let me think on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they block the entire backline, you pretty much just have to come in from the front. TC Crusader might actually be ideal because Conscripts can deny you ground to stand. Looking for areas to charge where the Conscripts cannot fall back is essential to protect your Knights from being attacked.
But yeah, it's annoying.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 18:34:33
This was something I heard echoed by one of the 40K podcasts I've been listening to (I want to say it was Forge the Narrative). Basically, that the Codex made Ad Mech a very durable, defensive army.
Thanks for posting the list and your experiences. I was experimenting last night with a Stygies/Lucius list on paper and came up with (for the point cost of a knight) a unit of 4 punchy kastellans with combusters, deep striking into a gun line to unload 4D6 flamer S5 -1 1dmg flamer hits and 24 of their S10 attacks per turn after switching into punch-mode.
Hands down, the knight outshone the Kastellans in the shooting phase, but in combat the 4 pairs of fists vs. a Reaper Chainsword and feet came down to approx. 6 1/2 damage 3 hits going through on a T8, 3+sv target from the Kastellans vs. 1.5 6 damage sword wounding hits and around 1 2 damage foot stomp (the numbers are from memory; I'll have to look at the exacts again after work).
I mentioned this a few pages back. We're no longer the best shooting army, but we're definitely the most durable one. I can see pure Stygies replacing Mars+Stygies in the future. (Rushing Kastelans in and rooting them would be suicidal against a tank army.)
I almost never recommend using a Chainsword. The only Knight where I would even consider it is the Knight Errant, and that is because Gauntlet and TC occupy the exact same space. The Chainsword gives up a bit of anti-tank for better use against high wound, low toughness targets like Tau Commanders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 23:34:51
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
Suzuteo wrote: There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.
I meant doubling the doubled punches. Dragoons are much more point efficient in terms of expected wounds against T6/7 3+ targets. Furthermore, we should remember that Kastelans get double fight, not double attacks. It's a subtle distinction that changes the expected wounds because the opponent gets to fight before you do the second fight.
Suzuteo wrote: There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
against low save infantry maybe but against multi wound models the kastelans have them beat hands down 8 vs 10 wounds for a three strong unit of dragoons and two bots which are about the same cost
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.
(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002
(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
i will never count the conqueror protocol in calculations it is an ice gimmick for a single turn but hats it
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even with it it only makes them equal the kastelans against tanks
Actually, Dragoons are wasted against infantry. Please please actually try using them before you criticize them? Everyone is blown away by how good these guys are, and you're talking about Fist Kastelans...
It's the most CP efficient gimmick in the codex, and alpha strike is important in this meta.
Fist Kastelans are superior against T8+ tanks. But those tanks kill Kastelans on approach much faster than they would Dragoons. Furthermore, we still do have Neutron Laser, so having the Dragoons stick to multiwound T4-7 makes more sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 20:04:10
Wulfey wrote: Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.
All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.
I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.
For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.
I'm not too worried about Ambush. It's actually really easy to lock them out of your half of the deployment zone given the 7" from edge requirement; you don't even need to block the entire area, just enough so that a tank can't fit. I mean, these guys can shoot you from practically anywhere anyway.
Marius Xerxes wrote: I'm not concerned with playing against it. I am looking to play with it.
Oh. Well, you'd be sinking a lot of points and CP into it. Especially if you are bringing an HQ for them. Your choices are essentially Pask, two Lemons, and Cadian or Tallarn and three Lemons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 21:59:31
Aaranis wrote: I don't know, on this forum (not only this thread) people either say AdMech is flimsy or that AdMech is resilient. I've yet to see the real resilience, maybe for the repairable vehicles but there's no point repairing a vehicle if it gets destroyed in one go. I simulated with dice rolls how long would it take for my Dunecrawler (with another close by for rerolls of 1s Invul. saves) to get destroyed by a Stormraven. Well it gets destroyed in one go, with the multi-melta and all the lascannons. And once one of my Onagers is destroyed I can pretty much forget about fighting heavy armour because I don't have any more S7+ in my collection. Sometimes my infantry shows a bit of resilience with several 6s on their invulnerable save, but they'll still be too much damaged to be any more useful.
Speaking of Dunecrawlers, I agree the Icarus is not really the wonderweapon some of you guys have been selling earlier. I think it's because post-codex we can use a CP to make our Laser shoot on 2+ against Fliers, but still, it's been doing almost no damage on my two last games. I'd rather have paid 15 pts more to have another Neutron Laser, that thing is reliable (well, as long as it wounds x.x) to deal some damage.
Who says AdMech is flimsy? I guess we have flimsy infantry, but our vehicles are incredibly durable: repairs, invulnerable saves on everything, cover in the open, and now -1 to hit past 12".
I think Icarus and Neutron are comparable against flying bricks and Daemon Primarchs and Princes. The former just has advantages in shooting MEQs and below, and it is fantastic against more fragile flyers like Elysians, Eldar, and Tau. I mean, keep in mind that the Icarus Array is a 10-shot main gun on a BS4+ tank body for 130 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 02:26:08
Interesting. He dropped Heavy Support to pick up the second Battalion with the snipers; it's 279 points, which is two Neutron Crawlers.
I actually think he erred by taking 6x Dragoons over 4x. The wound performance is only marginal, and from my own experiences, six is harder to maneuver.
Also, to answer your prior post, Crawlers and Dragoons are probably our best Power Level options. Dragoons are seriously only 3 PL, which is cheaper than a unit of Vanguard. They should be 4 PL at least.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well, I know. I have a spreadsheet of the best PL units.
Dragoons, Snipers, Corpuscarii, Balistarii. Onagers are just on par on the other hand.
I thinking about going either Spearhead or Outrider. Not sure what's better: Onager+Dragoon+Enginseer or Infiltrators+Dominus
BTW, I played a 6 Dragoon unit and actually it was better beacause I was able to charge 2 units that were rather far away from each other. The huge bases let me maintain coherency. Poped the stratagem and tabled turn one before deepstrike came down
Interesting. You multicharge the Dragoons? That can be risky. I usually just try to pile-in or consolidate into multiple units.
It seems the trade-off is that you gain CP efficiency and redundancy in the event of losses, but you risk using a sledgehammer when a mallet would have sufficed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 04:51:07
rvd1ofakind wrote: More info from InControl:
Dragoons and DakKastelans were the obvious stars of the show
The re-roll artifact did nothing in all 3 games.
Snipers didn't do much wounds wise but they ruined a lot of deployments
Yes, but I would temper the enthusiasm. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I am wary of 6 Kastelans and 6 Dragoons, even though I think every army needs a 4x unit of each. However, I am surprised he got away with so few Crawlers. I definitely would want two more.
The re-roll artifact? You mean the Auto-caduceus? I think it is useful for possibility of burst-healing a unit back to full wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/09 09:24:08
