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So two of my armies have come out in Codex form - SM and CWE. I've also seen several others. I miss the Index.

The Index felt more balanced. It took the wind out of the sails of a lot of big stuff and shenanigans. It hit most armies about as hard. It seemed to have a very different design philosophy.

The Codexes add rules, and fix some glaring balance issues (still unhappy my DAs were 17ppm!). But they feel bland. And some of the decisions seem bonkers.

With the Indexes, sure my tanks were overcosted. But so was everyone else's. My Falcons cost too much. But so did LasPreds. But if you compared them to eachother, seemed right.

In the Index world, sure, things weren't even. But most games would revolve around troops and infantry. Now it's back to the big stuff.

Also, specific to CWE, they made all my Aspects want to get close - even my Hawks. They "fixed" this in the Codex, and I feel like it was a step backwards.

And Attributes. Why does everyone need attributes? I was fine when it was just SM. Although I thought if SM have them, CSM should to. It's like BattleFocus or Tau overwatch. It's part of what makes Marines Marines. But then, the 8th E CTs were all over the place. Some were great - like RG. Others were a steaming pile of who cares. I liked 7E's CTs more.

And Attributes got worse after SM/CSM. RG's looked scary, but at least it didn't apply to vehicles. WTF does Alaitoc get the same thing, but also on Vehicles? I get that CWE Traits shouldn't be restricted to BattleBrothers-equivelents. That restriction on SM is part of what makes them Marines. But that means Alaitoc got something just better (albeit without the Infiltrate stratagem - that would have been broken).

And that's just the one that feels fitting in the CWE dex. Plenty of threads have talked about how Biel-Tans feels more like what Uthwe should have, Uthwe got what Iyanden should have, and Iyanden's just feels wrong on CWE.

Anyone else miss the Index writers?

Indexes were a tad bland. Codices brought backl variety (outside of competetive but really index or codex there's 3 lists being played there so who cares?)

The CW attributes are a bit all over the place and would have been better of not tied to a specific craftworld (in name).

I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least. And while they were a bit bland they covered all the models without having to bring 5 or 6 books to every game.

The indexes get a lot of hate (mostly from power gamers who are still buthurt they lost the invisible 2+/3++/4+++ wraith-knights that shot three or four times a turn) But they accomplished a monumental task of balancing EVERY MODEL in 40k's eclectic history.
They still make a solid game by themselves.

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

Not only that, but think the other direction - SM/Guilleman are hideously overpowered in the indices. Thankfully he's getting a points nerf shortly...

Index orks were and are awesome. An dark eldar player (me) made this post and he DOES seem to agree. Frick tau.

Not me (Plays CSM)

I like the idea of the Indexes. Personally, I'd like a book that contained multiple factions like the Indexes, but with the points costs of the Codices and only just enough Attributes/Warlord Trait/Relics and Stratagem added to fill 2-3 pages max per faction. Maybe about half the extra stuff we cone

For example, you could drop the Necrons out of the Xenos 1 Index completely and that would give you plenty of room for the extra CWE, DE and Harlie stuff.
Bulk it up to the size/price of a single Codex and you have a comprehensive list of all Aeldari rules possible. If the rules cannot fit in a book that size, they need to be trimmed down.

You could easily do this with all factions.
-Space Marines would probably need 2 books, 1 for the Codex compliant chapters, another for the special snowflake Marines
-Chaos might also need 2 books, 1 for all the CSM Legions, another for all the Daemon stuff
-Imperial Agents would include all the armies in the Imperial Index 2
-Aeldari I already mentioned
-Nids and GSC
-Tau, Necrons and Orks

So instead of having almost 20 bloated Codices, we could easily have 8 comprehensive Indexes.

-

The New Codices add flavor for each army. They also offer several different ways to play your army which are all viable (yes there will always be one choice that has the slight statistical advantage and thus is copy-pasted over and over at the top table in tournaments). Mid-tier competitive which is how I would describe my gaming group is very balanced (we are all trying our best to win but take and build armies where the theme is more important than absolute efficiency). Indexes were a great stop gap but I've enjoyed the books GW has released and can't wait for some factions to get some love.

I like the idea of the index as the home for model data sheets, but the execution left a lot to be desired. Internal balance between factions was terrible, as was external balance to some degree.

 Galef wrote:
I like the idea of the Indexes. Personally, I'd like a book that contained multiple factions like the Indexes, but with the points costs of the Codices and only just enough Attributes/Warlord Trait/Relics and Stratagem added to fill 2-3 pages max per faction. Maybe about half the extra stuff we cone

For example, you could drop the Necrons out of the Xenos 1 Index completely and that would give you plenty of room for the extra CWE, DE and Harlie stuff.
Bulk it up to the size/price of a single Codex and you have a comprehensive list of all Aeldari rules possible. If the rules cannot fit in a book that size, they need to be trimmed down.

You could easily do this with all factions.
-Space Marines would probably need 2 books, 1 for the Codex compliant chapters, another for the special snowflake Marines
-Chaos might also need 2 books, 1 for all the CSM Legions, another for all the Daemon stuff
-Imperial Agents would include all the armies in the Imperial Index 2
-Aeldari I already mentioned
-Nids and GSC
-Tau, Necrons and Orks

So instead of having almost 20 bloated Codices, we could easily have 8 comprehensive Indexes.
-

So instead of being able to buy whichever book you want, you have to suck it up and get a bloated book with stuff you'll never use?

Yeah, no thanks. Guard book is big enough without having to piggyback the Inquisition, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, and AdMech into it.

Yes, but to play guard you currently have to bring between 3 and 5 rulebooks. (BRB, Index2, Guard codex, IA, and a binder full of FAQ's.) In addition, the index was half the price of a codex. If you don't like to see other stuff in your book, just cut out the relevant pages.

At the end of the day this depend of how many armies people have.

People with only 1 or two armies just want to buy a book for that army. People that has 3-4 or more armies prefer less books with less fluff and more rules to use all of their models.

Personally, Index: Imperium 2 was a godsend for my mixed imperial army. But personally I prefer Codex for individual factions.

Play Indexhammer. Shouldn't be an issue. Those rules and books didn't disappear.

I didn't actually mean the number of books. I was referring to how they attempt balance, and my displeasure at many of the added rules.

What do we mean by 'bloated'? The indecies covered multiple armies in a thinner book for half the price of a codex.

Each codex covers one faction, has only 5-8 pages of more rules for that faction, and costs twice as much as an index.

Which of those is bloated?

 MattKing wrote:
Yes, but to play guard you currently have to bring between 3 and 5 rulebooks. (BRB, Index2, Guard codex, IA, and a binder full of FAQ's.) In addition, the index was half the price of a codex. If you don't like to see other stuff in your book, just cut out the relevant pages.

You don't need Index 2 for anything but scenery at this point.

Rough Riders are trash. If you're using Imperial Armour then you don't need those FAQs since they got updated and you can just field Death Riders instead. Imperial Armour also has the Vendetta in there.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

Index Orks and Tau did pretty well.

The rest were abject garbage.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So instead of being able to buy whichever book you want, you have to suck it up and get a bloated book with stuff you'll never use?

Yeah, no thanks. Guard book is big enough without having to piggyback the Inquisition, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, and AdMech into it.

That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that I would rather pay $50 ONCE for a book that contains MY faction and includes 2-3 others as a bonus, rather than pay that same $50 for JUST my faction
Either way, you are paying $40-50 per book.

The way it is now, I'd have to buy 3 $40-50 Codices to play CWE, DE and Harlies. So instead of a single $50 purchase, you want me to make a total $120-150 purchase
Yeah, no thanks indeed.

This would even work in GW's favor as it would tempt players to expand their collection since they already have the rules for another faction.

-

 Marmatag wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

Index Orks and Tau did pretty well.

The rest were abject garbage.

You're using the word garbage with almost every post recently. Might I suggest mixing it up a bit? Next time you should try one of thees:
trash, rubbish, refuse, waste, detritus, litter, junk, scrap, scraps, leftovers, remains, slops, nonsense, balderdash, claptrap, twaddle, blather, dross, rubbish, hogwash, baloney, tripe, jive, bilge, bull, bunk, poppycock, piffle, bunkum, crap.

Variety is the spice of life.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So instead of being able to buy whichever book you want, you have to suck it up and get a bloated book with stuff you'll never use?

Yeah, no thanks. Guard book is big enough without having to piggyback the Inquisition, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, and AdMech into it.

That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that I would rather pay $50 ONCE for a book that contains MY faction and includes 2-3 others as a bonus, rather than pay that same $50 for JUST my faction
Either way, you are paying $40-50 per book.

You're paying $40. There has been one $50 book and that was Space Marines. Space Marines, as almost always, is a larger book than most.

The way it is now, I'd have to buy 3 $40-50 Codices to play CWE, DE and Harlies. So instead of a single $50 purchase, you want me to make a total $120-150 purchase
Yeah, no thanks indeed.

That's your problem for playing 3 armies.

By your logic, I'd still be paying $120-150 because of playing Tau, Raven Guard, and Imperial Guard. But hey you'd be fine because all yours conveniently get bundled into one book right?

I'd also be stuck with a ton of content in those books that I'll never use or have an interest in.

This would even work in GW's favor as it would tempt players to expand their collection since they already have the rules for another faction.
-

Or it won't because it waters down existing factions/rules and drives players away. They lost $40 from me with the AdMech book which rolled Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus into one book and added in Mechanicus Knights.

1. Tau, RG and IG cost you 50 on the index, or 120 with codicies. (assuming tau is a normal codex cost)

2. Stuck? You aren't stuck with anything. Burn the pages, use em as TP toss em or give em to some luckless player.

3. "Or it won't because it waters down existing factions/rules and drives players away. They lost $40 from me with the AdMech book which rolled Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus into one book and added in Mechanicus Knights."

Last edition you'd have to grab 3x $40 codexes for that this one you get them all for 25 (index) or in a single book for 40. I've rarely met someone who REALLY wants to pay more for so much less.

 MattKing wrote:
1. Tau, RG and IG cost you 50 on the index, or 120 with codicies. (assuming tau is a normal codex cost)

It's going to be a $40 book. That means $120 for the individual books.
Indexes were $25 each, so you're talking $75 there not $50. Remember that Guard were Index 2 and Raven Guard were Index 1.

2. Stuck? You aren't stuck with anything. Burn the pages, use em as TP toss em or give em to some luckless player.

Yeah, that's a great defense..."Hey look you didn't want this crap in your book anyways so you had to pay that much but now you can just throw that money away anyways!"

3. "Or it won't because it waters down existing factions/rules and drives players away. They lost $40 from me with the AdMech book which rolled Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus into one book and added in Mechanicus Knights."

Last edition you'd have to grab 3x $40 codexes for that this one you get them all for 25 (index) or in a single book for 40. I've rarely met someone who REALLY wants to pay more for so much less.

You hear that? That's the sound of the point going over your head.

I ran Skitarii last edition. I didn't run Cult Mechanicus. I didn't run a War Convocation and have all three together. I bought the Skitarii Codex(it was $33 by the way, not $40. Same with the Cult Mechanicus, Tempestus, and Harlequin "mini"-books) and the Knight codex in its second iteration.

Someone like me who ran pure Skitarii? They can't do that anymore. Because of some perceived notion that they had to be placed into Cult Mechanicus and everything and there was a necessity to "clean up" that subfaction of Imperium.
And yeah, I'm absolutely salty over that. I enjoyed pure Skitarii. I don't want to have to do "counts as" but it's not like even using the Index would change anything.

Honestly to me this sounds like moaning for the sake of moaning. People had this weird idea in their heads that codexes would be replaced by indexes when this was never the case and was never even implied by GW.

Fun fact: You don't HAVE to use the codexes. If you think the bland and boring indexes were more fun, keep using them. The rest of us will be having fun over here with the codexes.

Despite what contrarians on the internet might be signal boosting to the heavens, 8th edition has been nothing but a resounding success. GW has been lightning fast on errata and changes. Keep in mind this is a company that made Dark Eldar wait TWELVE YEARS between codexes, now issuing FAQ and errata on a 2-3 week cycle. And not just error errata either, MASSIVE things like changing how Flyers can't take objectives, or giving all troops ObjSec. They haven't been perfect, and been weirdly inconstant on patching some holes (lack of a default CCW in some cases) while leaving others unfixed (see my sig) but they are a far cry from the horrors of 7th edition and the Kirby days.

120>75

You'd seriously rather pay 120 for less content than pay 75 and have to "deal" with extra pages? Somewhere Tom Kirby is reading this and drooling.

 MattKing wrote:
120>75

You'd seriously rather pay 120 for less content than pay 75 and have to "deal" with extra pages? Somewhere Tom Kirby is reading this and drooling.

No-ones forcing you to pay anything. If you like the Index rules STAY WITH THE INDEX RULES. But don't have the audacity to get angry if your opponent wants to play with the latest rules.

You can't be honest as an Eldar user that you were happier with the index.

Nobody's getting angry here dude. We're talking about the balance and cost of the index system. Not everything has to be a fight.

This is about more than just having to buy less books just to play "YOUR" army/armies.
It has to do with the ability to access all the rules for the entire game.

FYI, I do not play DE or Harlies, only CWE. But I have played/owner all the books at one point just to get a feel for how they play together.
Not knowing the full capabilities of my opponent's army can be very frustrating, but it is some thing GW has forced upon us in the last few years by essentially "pricing out" access to 100% of the rules for this 1 game.

When I use my Eldar to play against an opponent, I need more than just the main rules and my codex...I also need the opponent's codex, unless they too are playing Eldar.
The Indexes gave this a real chance of being a reality, but if every single faction and sub-faction (which BTW Skitarii were always means to be a SUB-faction to Ad-Mech, just like Harlequins are a sub-faction to CWE & DE) gets its own fully priced book, it will essentially be impossible to know all the rules

Another major point we are trying to make is that each Codex so far actually has a bit TOO many extra rules and is coming dangerously close to 7E levels of convoluted.
All they really needed was 5 or so Attributes (I guess more for Marines to cover all the Chapters), 5-6 WL traits, 5-6 Relics and no more than a half dozen Stratagems.
Having <Chapter/Craftworld> specific WL traits/relics/stratagems, while fluffy, is just too many. And they also added too many more Psychic powers. 3 per "discipline" should have been enough.

-

 MattKing wrote:
120>75

You'd seriously rather pay 120 for less content than pay 75 and have to "deal" with extra pages? Somewhere Tom Kirby is reading this and drooling.

I'd seriously rather pay $120 for content I am interested in(fluff, warlord traits, special rules for the various subfactions of that faction) than $75(ignoring the fact that Galef's proposal was for $50 Indexes with "more stuff in them" than the $25 Indexes that exist now) for a bunch of stuff that I am only going to use maybe a quarter of, yes.

Why would you think that paying less and getting less actual content that matters to you is somehow better? Because you might start a new army?