Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?

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**Wyrmalla**

Meanwhile we're onto our second car bombing in Ukraine this week. Its like the assassination budget for the Russian Intelligence Agency is almost due to be renewed and they're doing their best to spend it.

**Wyrmalla**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
I saw this article on the BBC come by today and all I could think was really.... really???? Takes some amazing commitment not only to stab 'yourself' to death but use two knives while doing so..

Emphasis on this part:

Among the other deaths flagged to the home secretary on Tuesday are those of Gareth Williams, the so-called "spy in the bag", whose badly decomposed body was found locked inside a holdall in his bath; Dr Matthew Puncher, a British scientist involved in the Litvinenko case who was found in his kitchen with multiple stab wounds from two separate knives; and Scot Young, a business associate of Berezovsky, who was found impaled on railings outside his London flat after falling from a fourth-floor window.

Williams' death was ruled to be "probably an accident" and Puncher's and Young's both suicides, and British police say they have found no evidence of Russian involvement in any of the cases barring Litvinenko's.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43299598

"This is called a story. And we are not here to tell stories. We are here to tell the truth. Understand?"

**Wyrmalla**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Techpriestsupport wrote:
You know a few years back Turkey shot down a Russian jet in their territory. Unlike when the Russians shot down a foreign jet this was a military jet and it was undeniably in another country's territory.

To my knowledge, ol' pooty ended up doing exactly zip about it.

(If half the things I've heard about Turks is true I can see why. )

If big bad Vlad hasn't got the ice cubes to go after Turkey I don't think he'd do much if England took measured retaliatory action against Russia if this was proven.

He didn't eaxactly do zip. With sanctions in place and Turkey being part of NATO, Putin didn't have many options to avoid self harm. But he did harm Turkey, he prevented (well sort of) Russians from going on vacation to Turkey. This was also in the days of the IS attacks. So with Russian tourists now also staying away the Turkish tourism industry started to collapse. Erdogan had to go to Putin to fix it.

Do the Russians really commit that much to the Turkish tourism industry? I would have thought that the major factors in any losses would rather be the general state of security, and the country rapidly becoming an authoritatian hellhole.

**Wyrmalla**

Spetulhu wrote:
avantgarde wrote:
I'd like to point out that often the US has permission from the powers that be to conduct its drone strike program. That's kind of a key distinction.

Aye, that is a good point. But sometimes they don't - Pakistan comes to mind. But let's drop that and get back to nerve gas. ;-)

The attack on Skripal was irresponsibly clumsy, dangerous and imprecise. Hell, if North Korean agents can assassinate a lone man without anyone else getting hurt one would expect real Russian agents could do so too. The criminal angle might not be so far-fetched - Russian crime bosses used to like getting elected because of immunity while holding political office and scoring some points with Putin or his cronies surely helps your chances to get votes.

Um, unless the point was to be imprecise? "We won't just kill you, but everyone around you to show how negative your influence is". Which would potentially draw concern from any governments hosting these agents, as future assassination attempts won't just cost them one spy, but also bystanders.

The Russian state media said that Britain's not a good host country for defectors (well, wanting and actually being are different things). Alienating the government from the process may be a step towards it. ...Or rather, depending on the state's backbone, just mean a couple of Russian spies wind up being found dead elsewhere...

Its hardly like publicly executing spies (with collateral damage) isn't common these days. China's purge of American spies a few years ago was apparently pretty bloody (as in having soldiers fire indiscriminately into an office filled with their own civilians just to kill one guy awful. Though they're fine with their people fearing the government, so them killing them, rather than the Americans was fine I guess).

**Wyrmalla**

In regards to ownership the Russians can't play the same hand as they did Ukraine, at least in the short term. Where they adamantly denied involvement whilst suggesting that the resulting actions were a good thing (already happened here), before walking that back a while later to saying "yeah, we did it, so what?". The Russians are still using the argument that their soldiers one day decided to just walk off with hundreds of tanks and other military hardware, but faced no repercussions.

If that's the image which Putin wants to project to the world of how inept his government is then they could presumably play a similar hand here. All the while internally putting out smug statements to his own people about how smart they are in fooling the West. Unfortunately those who buy into that guy's line have an inferiority complex which results in them using the argument "oh, but the West's been doing this for decades, so we have every right to do it too". Though I suppose that predicates also not stopping to think "wait, we just did a bad thing. Regardless of someone else having done a bad thing, we're still doing a bad thing" or "no, you can't get away with theft just because that other guy stole something".

...Though any arguments of that sort are pretty moot. We're dealing with a government who's default stance seems to be smugness. "Look how smart we are in how we can circumvent all your laws", and so on. Putin's response this week to "Was it the Russian government who influenced the US election?", was "Russian citizens acting independently maybe, but they must have been Ukrainians, Tatars, or Jews" (which, yeah, feth you dude). In this 1984 style state that government's already sold their followers that any sanctions and isolationism is a good thing, as it only this separation from the West only makes them stronger (which is against the line put out from the Russian Federation prior to Putin). As the UK government carries out its investigation here we're yet to see what the reaction will be, but hopefully it'll be something which sums up the West's feelings over the past few years of nonsense which that state's perpetrated.

**Wyrmalla**

Tangentially the EU's upholding the existing sanctions against Russia over Crimea.

**Wyrmalla**

Specifically:

She said the UK would consider his response before deciding what action to take, but added: "Should there be no credible response, we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom."

To which my response is, they better not let this slide... I'm not sure the usual "oh, it was a non-state actor who did it" will cut it. ...Or rather as per Putin's most recent comments regarding non-state actors, "it must have been the Ukrainians, Tatars or Jews" .

As a followup, the particular nerve agent used in the attack is rather deadly. "Wash your phone" wouldn't really cut it. Nah, that stuff could defeat the Hazmat gear of the time it was invented in...

Again playing into the notion of "its not healthy to harbour our enemies" (yes, even the ones we made peace with...).

**Wyrmalla**

smugness

noun

excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements.

The Russian state media has two settings. Smugness and acting affronted. Even if they didn't perpetrate the attack the management would have them play it up to net some brownie points with the Nationalistic audience. They were gloating about their troops killing French and Israeli Special Forces in Syria months ago (...almost like they want to portray us as their enemy. Heaven forbid!).

**Wyrmalla**

Possibly related, : Russian businessman and close associate of Boris Berezovsky found dead in Britain, lawyer says

As one commentor put it :

Was it natural causes or Russian natural causes (bullets, nerve gas, radioactive poisoning)?

Is it even a meme anymore that if you do over the Russian government and then go into exile you wind up dead? If it is the Kremlin who did it, then what a hell of a way to respond to the current state of affairs in Britain.

Also, Russia demands access to U.K. findings in spy poisoning probe

“Of course, we heard the ultimatum that was made in London,” Lavrov said, according to comments reported by the Interfax news agency. “We have already made a statement that it is all nonsense. We have nothing to do with it.”

As has been discussed, the Russians have gone from saying "oh we didn't do it, *wink*, but this is the response our enemies should expect from us, *wink*" to their default next stage of being affronted at any accusations that might have some negative response for them, "how could we have done this. Where are these accusations coming from? It must have been the Americans (they've already found a way to say it was a US/ Ukrainian plot), or no, the British! Yes, you did it this to yourselves (something else they've said...) !". Its pretty tiresome.

**Wyrmalla**

The Russians are refusing to provide a response to the yes or no question. Instead they want all the evidence to be handed over so they can perform their own investigation.

How do Russian investigations into things they clearly perpetrated go again? Oh right, they tamper with and lose most of the evidence then conclude that they had nothing to do with it (i.e. MH17). Citing that any investigations into the use of chemical weapons need to be undertaken by all parties involved for a concise response, and not this supposed "witch hunt". I.e. 5 years later they'll either forget about the investigation or go "nuh, uh, not us! *wink* We're so offended!".

They've been asked to answer a question. Deflecting from it only implies guilt (which the whataboutist crowd will say "innocent until proven guilty" - yeah, but what's happening here is the Russians have absconded from the court trial and are hiding from the authorities...), though the delaying tactics are par the course. Putin wants to gain some points leading up to his re-election with his base (given his opposition him being re-elected is a formality).

Meanwhile, we have the Russian response. They killed someone else today.

Oh and a wonderful quote from a Russian MP regarding the situation:

"This is a drama for British TV. It's a behaviour of Hitler when he blamed someone in burning of Reichstag"

Bonus points after Putin's anti-Semitic comment earlier in the week. .

**Wyrmalla**

My particular concern is that the Russian government is good enough to go on their state media and accuse everyone under the sun of perpetrating this attack, but can't instead go to an official meeting and say it.

Maybe because if its down on paper then when it comes out they did it they'll be in a deeper hole (there's already been articles on "highly likely" being Intelligence Agency speak - i.e. the confusion people have over use of the term "theory" in terms of science and every day language. I.e. the Intelligence community's saying - you fething did it)? Or rather they just want to extend the deadline to infinity and when someone takes an action against them they can pull the usual eternal victim card. "Why're you so mean to us? You couldn't prove it, but you're doing these bad things to us anyway. Look how evil the West is!".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There is a third option, which is that someone else has covertly managed to create the same nerve agent.

Not likely, but it is a possibility. Of course, such a claim would require evidence to back it up and well...

The Russians have already claimed that it could have been stolen in any number of ways. They say that some was stored in Ukraine, under American supervision immediately after the dissolution of the Soviet Union (funny that, Ukraine). Clearly then it was the CIA who did this all as a plant. They've accused the British government of committing the attack themselves due to their Anti-Russian bias as a way of getting back into the EU's good books and turn them against Russia as well.

Again, if they can accuse everyone under the sun of this, then why can't they put that in writing?

**Wyrmalla**

Bonus points from that Russian MP's interview. Russia's at a +16 multiplier on their trolling score at this point.

"You can take this poison from any laboratory in Ukraine or other fake countries that are happy to help you."

...Ukraine's now not a real country. They've gone from a country with an illegitimate government (in the Russian eyes. Swap "illegitimate" for, "not our puppets") to not being a country at all. This in a week where they're calling Tatars in Crimea traitors for saying they refuse to vote in the upcoming Russian elections (not like it matters. The Kremlin could have pitchfork armed mobs at the door and Putin would still claim a 99.99% approval rating).

**Wyrmalla**

Little mentioned about the other guy who died during PM Questions. However this is of course an ongoing investigation (by counter-terrorism, rather than the regular police I believe) as was there mention of re-opening the cases on a number of suspected assassinations (if they're just outright saying the Russians are the perpetrators here it'll be a Monty Hall if the same is applied to all those other blatant murders).

Hopefully over the rest of the week, give that Britain's now committed to saying that this was Russia (beside's Corbyn, who in appearances got shunned by most of the other MPs for his comments), we'll see further responses from the rest of the EU and America.

Naturally we should all prepare for cyber attacks, which Russia will of course deny whilst saying, "oh, it wasn't us, but you deserved it. Must have been the Ukrainians doing it again!".

**Wyrmalla**

Ouze wrote:
War Drone wrote:
Well, the first retaliatory step has just been announced:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43402506

The UK will expel 23 Russian diplomats after Moscow refused to explain how a Russian-made nerve agent was used on former spy in Salisbury, the PM says.

Theresa May said the diplomats, who have a week to leave, were identified as "undeclared intelligence officers".
[

I'm not sure what the appropriate response to this would be, but this feels pretty underwhelming.

Transcript of today's PM Questions (scroll a bit down a bit, that page gives the minutes for the whole meeting)

The UK will expel 23 Russian diplomats after Moscow refused to explain how a Russian-made nerve agent was used on a former spy in Salisbury, the PM says.

Theresa May said the diplomats, who have a week to leave, were identified as "undeclared intelligence officers".

She also revoked an invitation to Russia's foreign minister, and said the Royal Family would not attend the Fifa World Cup later this year.

Russia denies being involved in the attempted murder of Sergei Skripal.

The Russian Embassy said the expulsion of 23 diplomats was "unacceptable, unjustified and short-sighted".

Former spy Mr Skripal, 66, and his daughter, Yulia Skripal, 33, remain critically ill in hospital after being found slumped on a bench on 4 March.

Det Sgt Nick Bailey also fell ill responding to the incident, and is in a serious but stable condition, but is thought to be improving.

Also:

A freeze on Russian State Assets in the UK (not confirmed if that includes those of private citizens, though investigating the extent of Putin's specifically was mentioned).

Reviewing prior deaths of Russian nationals which were likely committed by the Russian state, in addition to the death of another Russian official yesterday.

Potentially some form of cyber response.

With further sanctions pending.

(Oh and the Labour Party leader managing to isolate himself from most of parliament with his comments)

The government's currently speaking to their allies in regards to how to respond. The French have backtracked a bit however in asking for more evidence (which the UK Intelligence Agency presumably have, as it'll be them who're dictating the language here). The full list of sanctions s due to be announced at some point today (7PM GMT?), which likely will be followed up a response from the EU member states later.

**Wyrmalla**

Though, are the British embassy staff actual staff, or like the Russians, spies? I remember reading that the Russians deliberately overstaff their embassies as anyone working there has diplomatic immunity. Thus the result is that tonnes of Russian officials also do spy work on the side.

In that case I wonder if the rest of Europe's going to start throwing out their Russian officials as well?

Tangentially Moldova's just sentenced one of their MPs over being a Russian spy.

**Wyrmalla**

The particular joke with Syria was that the Russians repeatedly vetoed resolutions to send troops there. Then when they wanted to do so they just did it. However, whilst those resolutions were to remove the Syrian government, they chose to back it. Youknow, the one barrel bombing its own people.

Meanwhile the West got involved and started to make a difference, just with the government still in power and beginning to regain more control. Then came the Iraqis and Turks, who decided wiping out one of the West's only allies in the conflict was a good idea. The UN did vote on telling the Turks to go back to their side of the border at least, not like they're going to follow it though. They've made up with the Russians also, which is a pity, as they could have had a "who's the most oppressive regime" off and blown each other up instead.

Currently in that war we have the Russians threatening to attack the Americans after the Americans said they were going to continue their bombing campaign. Besides those comments about the Russians going nuclear because someone stood up to them. As a result of recent events, and the West still being against the Assad regime. That and its only been a few weeks since that failed Russian false flag operation which had them lose something like 250 soldiers (in the guise of "mercenaries"). They attacked a position which they thought were rebels. Call it bad intelligence, but it was manned by American soldiers, who proceeded to blow the hell out of the aggressors (who weren't "Russians" just private contractors, so fair game).

I still advocate backing the Kurds. Its not like many of the other factions are our friends there. The Turks are a nominal ally at best there days, besides being a dictatorship and moving towards the Russians. The Assad government's only still in power due to the Russian backing, and their list of war crimes against their own people has lost them any credibility on the world stage (it was cracking down on protests which started this whole war). The various rebel factions are fast becoming irrelevant in the scheme of things due to the other factions, or have been forced to pick a side. ISIS is ISIS, and not doing well regardless. Meanwhile there's always Israel, who're continuing their campaign of "we don't care who you are, get near the border and you're going to be a red smear", along with planning to build a wall to stop any extremists which the Assad regime aren't in the habit of fighting when they're moving towards the Israeli border. The Iraqis have their own problems, and besides being concerned over ISIS moving in on their territory, seem to care more about putting down the Kurds (is it a meme in the ME that the sky could be falling down, but that's still not your main concern if there's a minority people wanting self determination?).

**Wyrmalla**

As expected....

UK calls death of Russian businessman Glushkov a homicide

LONDON (AP) — British police said Friday they have launched a murder investigation into the death of London-based Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov after an autopsy revealed that he died from compression to the neck.

Counterterrorism detectives are leading the case “because of the associations Mr. Glushkov is believed to have had,” the Metropolitan Police force said.

Glushkov, 68, was an associate of Boris Berezovsky, a Russian oligarch and strong Kremlin critic who died under disputed circumstances in 2013.

Glushkov was found dead at his south London home on Monday. His death came a week after former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were left critically ill from nerve agent poisoning in the city of Salisbury.

The London police force said “at this stage there is nothing to suggest any link (from Glushkov) to the attempted murders in Salisbury,” and they said there was no evidence that Glushkov has been poisoned.

British authorities say the substance that poisoned the Skripals is a powerful form of a Russian-developed nerve agent known as Novichok. A British police officer who responded to the attack in Salisbury is in serious condition, and police say 131 people may have come into contact with the nerve agent.

Britain has accused the Russian government of responsibility for Skripals’ poisoning and British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Friday it’s “overwhelmingly likely” that Russian President Vladimir Putin himself ordered the attack. Putin’s spokesman has denounced the comment as “shocking and inexcusable.”

U.K. police say “there are no wider public health concerns” around the investigation into Glushkov’s death.

In light of the Salisbury attack, British police are looking again at the deaths of more than a dozen Russians in Britain, including Berezovsky.

After his death in 2013, an inquest failed to determine whether Berezovsky had killed himself or died from foul play.

Glushkov, a longtime associate of the oligarch, had worked for various Berezovsky enterprises including the car factory AvtoVAZ and flagship Russian airline Aeroflot.

He was arrested in 1999 and put on trial for embezzling $7 million from Aeroflot. In 2004, he was sentenced to three years and three months in prison, but released because of time served.

Russian media reported that Glushkov was granted political asylum in Britain in 2010.

In 2017, a Moscow court reviewed Glushkov’s case and sentenced him in absentia to eight years for reportedly embezzling more than $122 million from Aeroflot.

Last year, Glushkov appeared on a list published by the Russian Embassy in London of Russian citizens wanted for serious crimes whom the U.K. had refused to extradite.

It said Russia had sought his extradition in 2015 “for committing a number of severe financial offences on the territory of Russia,” but the British government refused.

**Wyrmalla**

Russian spy poisoning: chemist says non-state actor couldn't carry out attack

Vil Mirzayanov, who worked with the chemical novichok under Soviets for 30 years, says even he would not know how to weaponize it

The Russian chemist who revealed the existence of the novichok family of chemical agents to the world has dismissed the notion that a non-state actor could be behind the poisoning of former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury, England, earlier this month.

Vil Mirzayanov, 83, said the chemical was too dangerous for anyone but a “high-level senior scientist” to handle and that even he – who worked for 30 years inside the secret military installation where novichok was developed and gained extensive personal experience in handling the agent – would not know how to weaponize it.

He said he did not see how a criminal organization or other non-state group could pull off such an attack.

“It’s very, very tough stuff,” Mirzayanov told the Guardian at his home in New Jersey, where he has lived in exile since 1996. “I don’t believe it.

“You need a very high-qualified professional scientist,” he continued. “Because it is dangerous stuff. Extremely dangerous. You can kill yourself. First of all you have to have a very good shield, a very particular container. And after that to weaponize it – weaponize it is impossible without high technical equipment. It’s impossible to imagine.”

Skripals poisoning: what we know so far
Read more
The British government has announced sanctions against Moscow over the poisoning of Skripal, and the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, said on Friday it was “overwhelmingly likely” that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, personally took the decision to use the nerve agent against the ex-spy.

But the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said on Wednesday that the chemical agent identified in the Salisbury attack could have been used by someone else other than the Russian state, and a Corbyn spokesperson suggested a “mafia-like group” or “oligarchic interests in London” might have been responsible.

Mirzayanov said those theories did not make sense owing to the facilities and multiple layers of expertise that would be required to prepare such an attack.

Chemists synthesizing the agent would have to be working somewhere with an antidote close at hand, he said, and they would have to be working with someone who knew how to weaponize it, which, he emphasized, he himself did not.

“We had no idea how to weaponize it,” he said. “We don’t know because it’s not our business.”

Weaponization would also need to take place at a different facility from the one where the agent was made, he said.

Mirzayanov said the perpetrator of the attack must have been the Russian state.

“No one country has these capabilities like Russia, because Russia invented, tested and weaponized Novichok,” he said.

The theory that the agent was stolen for use in a crime was weak for similar reasons, Mirzayanov said.

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“If you steal it, and after that, what to do with that?” he said. “You cannot weaponize, no exceptions, you cannot weaponize that.”

Mirzayanov further said that there was probably no current stockpile of novichok to steal, because it has a limited shelf life and the preferred form would be a binary version in which two relatively benign, non-banned substances were mixed to produce novichok.

“The final product, in storage, after one year is already losing 2%, 3%. The next year more, and the next year more. In 10-15 years, it’s no longer effective.”

Mirzayanov worked inside the secret military installation where novichok was developed; his job was testing the surrounding air and soil for traces of novichok.

When he realized that Moscow’s military was lying about the possible applications of novichok and that the program risked undermining global chemical weapons bans, he said, he decided to expose it, publishing his first account in the Russian press in 1991.

He was arrested in 1994 and charged with divulging state secrets. Intervention by the US government, the Soros foundation and activists including his wife Gale, an American, secured his asylum in the United States.

Mirzayanov thinks the Salisbury attack was performed with a binary version of the agent brought through customs and automatically mixed at the time of the attack.

“I believe they brought binary version,” Mirzayanov said. “It’s two ampules, small containers, like a big bullet, put them together in a spray or something, and after that, some mechanism which is mixing them, a couple seconds and after that you’re shooting.”

Mirzayanov said the danger for people in the area of the attack before or afterward would depend on the dosage used. “It’s extremely poisonous, about 10 times more potent than VX gas,” he said. “It could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”

The first sign of exposure is a shrinkage of pupils and darkening of vision, he said. “After that vomiting, [difficulty] breathing and convulsions.”

An antidote can delay or partially reverse the effects of the poison but would not necessarily save the life of the victim, he said.

Mirzayanov said he did not feel fear for himself or his family in speaking about novichok and Russia.

“It may be a little bit crazy, but when I decide something, I’m going exactly to do it, without any distraction, to some goal,” he said. “I’m a very determined person. Because of that, if I’ve decided, all of it is gone, any fear – I don’t feel any fear.”

**Wyrmalla**

Elections in Russia.

And we're supposed to take that government seriously why again? What's the voter turn out again? 3 times as many people living in Russia today somehow voted for Putin? Yup, Putin's voter base includes people who aren't even born yet...

Meanwhile those who support his government say, "Oh, but the Russian people believe in him, what are numbers?". Government that could get in through popularity alone don't need to stuff ballots.

**Wyrmalla**

Ukraine still has Russian diplomats? 0.o

...Or did they hop into Crimea, steal a few then say "here, you can have those diplomats you sent to our country back"?

**Wyrmalla**

Steve steveson wrote:
People, take note, one poster has managed to totally derail this thread by going off in to defence of irrelevant things and attacking foreign policy of other countries. Who did what in Sirya or Iraq or supported Isis through a long oil supply chain is not relativant. This is about Russia using chemical weapons in the UK. Who did what elsewhere and which country is the worst is not relevant. Civilians have been hurt by a Russian chemical weapon deployed in the UK and that is why Russia is facing sanctions now.

This name calling, deflectio and whataboutism is just following the line of the Russian propaganda top to bottom.

Queue complaints about the content of the discussion of this thread, saying things are becoming OT and it being locked.

I.e. any thread where Russia's portrayed in a negative light.

**Wyrmalla**

Which given Russia's history of assassinating its opponents, was presumably the intent. Not only in threatening its enemies, but also stating the point that those people are inherently dangerous due to the weapons which are used to kill them (reinforced by statements made by the Russian state media and politicians - because seriously, if they want to say they didn't do it, explain away all the gloating prior to the formal accusation of Russian inclement FFS).

I'd think that behind closed doors the assassination may have been in response to another event, or to send a message relating to some scheme the Intelligence agencies have been up to. Whether something was done to provoke this, or more likely it was the Russians wanting to send a message to other groups is up for debate.

Meanwhile, the matter of that Russian who died on the day where the British government asked for a response from the Russians continues to not be addressed in relation to the current case. However, as with the re-opened cases of assassinated Russians which the British are investigating, it'll all perhaps come out in time.

**Wyrmalla**

Perhaps certain posters here aren't as pigheaded as they wish to appear, and are just making their proactive comments to get a reaction out of people? Even if they are plainly ignorant, arguing with them just detracts from any meaningful discussion- which in my experience on a couple of boards is exactly their intention.

Would you seriously bother arguing with someone on the street who's saying the moon's made out of cheese? There's an ignore button for a reason guys...

**Wyrmalla**

Russia tested nerve agent on door handles before Skripal attack, UK dossier claims

Spoiler:

This in the same week where the Russians have accused the West of staging that chemical attack in Syria. What a bunch of sycophants.

**Wyrmalla**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Guys, maybe it's only obvious to me, but Russian troll is trying for a thread lock, not to actually converse with us, so just put him on ignore before he wins.

No gak. Have you ever participated in a thread discussing Russia in a negative light here?

"This guy is arguing that the moon is made of cheese and deliberately derailing the thread to have it closed mods" - "Well its not against the rules..."

Just ignore and continue on with the thread instead of arguing that the moon's made out of cheese. The trolls would rather we argue instead of having an actual discussion, though well, I think most people would take them up on that offer regardless TBH.

**Wyrmalla**

When undertaking an investigation you don't start at "blame everyone who owns a knife". Rather the final decision's based on multiple behaviours which when put together make the culprit the most plausible.

The side which is yelling the loudest that they couldn't be involved, whilst blaming everyone else, draws the most attention. I'd imagine that the other parties which could have potentially committed the crime were more forthright. Buts its not just the shouting and screaming which makes the Russians suspicious. Having those affiliated with the government on this, and previous crimes, gloat about the crime and talk about the ways in which it would benefit Russia don't help either.

The current line of evidence implicating Russia may be a load of informed coincidences and stuff that the Intelligence Agencies aren't telling people. Though put that together with the dozens of prior assassinations which the Russian government's perpetrated in a similar fashion and they seem like the most likely suspect. ...Or are we ignoring that when the British government asked that Russia give a response to their accusations another of Putin's detractor's living in England died under mysterious circumstances?

**Wyrmalla**

Iron_Captain wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
godardc wrote:

I always thought you to be an honnest, if misleaded, person.
I may have been wrong. Do you have an agenda against poor Russia ?

The issue is that RT is a less than credible source for...well, anything, but particularly things to do with Russia. It;'s like saying that 'Well, here in Der Stürmer it says that Hitler is a great leader for Germany!'

RT is mostly just a mainstream news outlet that gets its news from exactly the same sources all other news outlets in the world. Just take a look at it. Like 80% of the articles are almost exactly the same as the articles you find on virtually all major Western outlets. News is mostly just a copy-paste job. Take the report from Reuters or another news agency, maybe add some background, a few nice pictures et voila. An article is finished.
Now obviously you should not trust RT when it writes about the Russian government, because said government is its employer (although when you compare it to state-owned Russian-language news outlets that are popular in Russia, RT is surprisingly critical at times. It is easily the most independent and critical Russian state media, not that that is saying much). What is more, because RT is Russian it naturally has a pro-Russian bias. Apart from that, RT is pretty normal. It is hardly comparable to Der Stürmer. Also, you should be aware of the owner and nationality of every news outlet, as they are all biased. Not just RT.

They take the same news and spin it in their own way however. Picking and choosing sentences from a speech and saying that they mean something that they didn't.

My father watches RT. I've walked in on him and listened to whatever random article came on at the time. They're difficult to stand for more than a few seconds. The level of bias when reporting even the most mundane things is appalling coming from a "credible" news source. That's besides the twisting of the truth and outright lies.

Though as with those who follow stuff like Bright Bart, the watcher think that they're the ones in the right and everyone else is telling lies. People have a distrust of the media, and channels like RT play into that. They tear down things which those viewers don't agree with, and that then allows them to sneak in articles pushing their agenda in other subjects. Till the viewer's gone from watching them as a source of news about their original point of interest, to trusting them as a source on everything.

There's bias in news reporting everywhere. That's not what RT does. That channel is only concerned about pushing the Russian state's agenda. Of course that agenda isn't limited to articles praising the Kremlin. They're fine with backing opposition to their enemies, or throwing shade on them, whatever nets them someone with fringe views who can then be fed into the propaganda machine.

I stopped watching the BBC after their reporting on the Scottish Independence referendum in how they twisted the truth. If I'd been watching Russia Today about the Russian Invasion of Ukraine then I wouldn't have lasted a day with how they went far beyond what the BBC were doing. If you really can't see the extent of their manipulation, or be aware of their tactics then websites which debunk them are freely available. Hell Stop Fake breaks down their lies step by step.

However, once you're in that RT bubble its difficult to get out even if someone's explaining things to you. Once you're in the propaganda machine its built so that people feel comfortable where they are and distrust opposing views (the machine's happy enough to supply you with articles debunking them ...which throws shade on the other side's attempts to explain the real situation). The channels are a product of decades of research on how to manipulate people into following the party line. Its just unfortunate that their tactic includes an element which says those not toeing that line are the ones who are the real sheep. :/

**Wyrmalla**

Don't normalise a propaganda channel by saying that "the truth's somewhere in the middle". You have the mainstream news, then Russia Today's a dot on the horizon as far as credible news sources go. "My small town newspaper which proclaims that the Earth is flat is equally part of the spectrum of journalism and has just the same amount of integrity!". Outside of the little bubble RT's supporters live in, the rest of the world knows thinks its a joke.

Though as ever with these bloody Russia threads people spend more time arguing with pro-Russian posters who spread nonsense than actually discuss the topic at hand.

**Wyrmalla**

Ketara wrote:
godardc wrote:That's funny, because earlier in this very thread, Wyrmalla told us that BBC was so biaised that he stopped reading it

You might want to read both him and me more closely. He said that he had a specific bugbear over one issue, namely the Scottish referendum, and I said that all platforms had their own blind spots. That's why you read a variety of sources; in order to cover those.brands.

Yes, its perhaps relevant to also mention that this was around the time that I became of Russia Today. They were just bad on their throwing shade at the British government so I didn't watch them either. Then came their handling of the Russia invasion of Ukraine and I spent the time researching the organisation to find out just how incredulous they were.

**Wyrmalla**

It could be a continued "feth you" on the behalf of the Russians to the British government, as a way of showing their capabilities and to muddy the waters over the value of the targets in the previous attack (i.e. they're all just random contamination/ attacks, not a targeted one against a former spy). Its World Cup season, which is typically when Russia's pulling stunts like this to drum up Nationalist support.

Youknow, meanwhile in Ukraine Russia's just moved into the Azov Sea and is busy detaining Ukrainian shipping. ...Not that anyone's paying attention, or wanting to make a fuss while they're hosting the World Cup.

Hmn, I must look up whatever happened to that friend of Skripal who died on the day that the Russians were asked for "a response". That seemed rather too coincidental at the time.