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I really hope the problem they discovered is that going first is way too big of an advantage. Nids excel at winning the Alpha Strike game, and 8th is all about the Alpha.

It would be really nice to have turns 3-5 matter a bit more than they do right now. It would also be nice if going 2nd didn't drastically reduce the win probability for "normal" army builds.

While I agree with the sentiment, I feel like the first turn advantage is a side affect of the game being designed to flow quickly. Well, at least quicker than prior editions.
One of the things that slowed down gameplay previously is units that were dang hard to kill.
The new AP system and Damage mechanic are a godsend for this, however it does make who goes first way more important.

A decent fix is going to be hard to find without shifting the balance to make the second player have the advantage, or simply slowing down the inevitable until turn 2.

-

Maybe a general stratagem that mimics second edition's hidden and/or overwatch that can only be used against players taking the first turn?

Realistically, addressing this would basically require a new edition.

The problem isn't just the very first game turn -- the flyrant list is strong in part because it can alpha strike even if it goes second. The problem isn't just the first round -- deep strike lists could just wait a turn. The problem isn't just shooting -- Alpha Legion Berzerkers, Blood Angels, Shining Spears, and Mortarion are in CC turn 1.

You'd basically need to change one of three core features of the game. Either you...

1. Abandon player turns entirely and go to something more like players taking turns activating units.

2. Drastically reduce offensive efficiency across the board for all units.

3. Massively limit the ability for anything to attack without spending several turns moving around.

Obviously (1) is just a total redesign of the game. (2) would be easy to do -- you just add another roll to every attack where on a 3+ it fails entirely, or you give everything 3x wounds, or whatever -- but means that games would take much longer (this also buffs slow CC somewhat). (3) is also basically a redesign -- you'd need to strip deep strike from most things, or make it so that you can't take any other actions on the turn you deep strike, and you'd want to limit weapon ranges to perhaps 18" on a regular board (which seems kind of silly for artillery).

I've always thought the game might be improved with rolling to determine deployment, and then rolling again after deployment to determine first turn.

Honestly, making Reserves come randomly and only on turn 2 would be a REALLY strong move towards balancing First and Second turns.

Right now, there is absolutely no reason to start a unit on the table if it can Deepstrike. This is stupid. Strategy games should always be about making decisions.

It's the exact same thing with Plasma. Since it's basically risk-free to Overheat all the time, people just Overheat all the time.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Realistically, addressing this would basically require a new edition.

The problem isn't just the very first game turn -- the flyrant list is strong in part because it can alpha strike even if it goes second. The problem isn't just the first round -- deep strike lists could just wait a turn. The problem isn't just shooting -- Alpha Legion Berzerkers, Blood Angels, Shining Spears, and Mortarion are in CC turn 1.

You'd basically need to change one of three core features of the game. Either you...

1. Abandon player turns entirely and go to something more like players taking turns activating units.

2. Drastically reduce offensive efficiency across the board for all units.

3. Massively limit the ability for anything to attack without spending several turns moving around.

Obviously (1) is just a total redesign of the game. (2) would be easy to do -- you just add another roll to every attack where on a 3+ it fails entirely -- but means that games would take much longer (this also buffs slow CC somewhat). (3) is also basically a redesign -- you'd need to strip deep strike from most things, or make it so that you can't take any other actions on the turn you deep strike, and you'd want to limit weapon ranges to perhaps 18" on a regular board (which seems kind of silly for artillery).

And Alpha-Striking is still possible for point (1). I see it a lot, but I've played a few alternating activation games and in my experience, if alpha is powerful, then alpha is powerful, whether it's from activating your whole army first, or activating one powerful unit first.

Just think about the assault phase right now in 40k if you need an example: swinging first is a powerful ability, even with alternating activation. In a 1v1 scenario, it's basically turn-based anyways, and even in a 1v3 or 1v4 scenario, if the 1 gets to go first it can still cripple or annihilate the greatest threat to it with no risk of response. Alternating activation does not solve the alpha problem - it just redefines it in terms of single, powerful units. A Baneblade will alpha super well in an alternating-activation system.

Reemule wrote:
I've always thought the game might be improved with rolling to determine deployment, and then rolling again after deployment to determine first turn.

Isn't that exactly what's done now? They changed it from the person who finishes deploying first going first, to just getting +1 on the roll for first turn...

Dionysodorus wrote:
Realistically, addressing this would basically require a new edition.

This is the correct answer. The only solution is a new edition that makes 40k a wargame, instead of a CCG with "cards" you have to paint yourself. And I'm glad people are finally starting to agree with what I was saying from day one, that 8th edition is a dumpster fire of bad design.

 Nym wrote:
Honestly, making Reserves come randomly and only on turn 2 would be a REALLY strong move towards balancing First and Second turns.

Right now, there is absolutely no reason to start a unit on the table if it can Deepstrike. This is stupid. Strategy games should always be about making decisions.

It's the exact same thing with Plasma. Since it's basically risk-free to Overheat all the time, people just Overheat all the time.

1) You're right, but I'm not sure how to fix it. "Reserves come in randomly" doesn't really fix it, as either it is so random the choice is automatically not to deepstrike (e.g. something like a 4+ with no re-rolls or modifiers per unit) or it is "random-but-not-really" (e.g. Comes in on a 2+, Special Character X re-rolls 1s for reserve rolls)

2) It's not risk free. The problem with plasma overheat is the re-rolls from characters, not the plasma itself. That's what makes it risk free.

JohnMarik wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I've always thought the game might be improved with rolling to determine deployment, and then rolling again after deployment to determine first turn.

Isn't that exactly what's done now? They changed it from the person who finishes deploying first going first, to just getting +1 on the roll for first turn...

Yep. Its Irony.

 Nym wrote:
Honestly, making Reserves come randomly and only on turn 2 would be a REALLY strong move towards balancing First and Second turns.

Right now, there is absolutely no reason to start a unit on the table if it can Deepstrike. This is stupid. Strategy games should always be about making decisions.

It's the exact same thing with Plasma. Since it's basically risk-free to Overheat all the time, people just Overheat all the time.

I agree. Restricting deep strike would go a long way.

More detailed cover rules would help, too. I don't think cover is useless in 8th edition (in 7th I played against Tau - THAT was useless), but it's a bit bland and basically only useful for infantry and moreso for infantry that already has a good armour save (not that the hordes need any more help, though).

 Peregrine wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Realistically, addressing this would basically require a new edition.

This is the correct answer. The only solution is a new edition that makes 40k a wargame, instead of a CCG with "cards" you have to paint yourself. And I'm glad people are finally starting to agree with what I was saying from day one, that 8th edition is a dumpster fire of bad design.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

What a compelling and insightful defense of GW and 8th edition.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) It's not risk free. The problem with plasma overheat is the re-rolls from characters, not the plasma itself. That's what makes it risk free.

That was implied. The problem indeed comes from re-rolling 1's.

As for Reserves, it used to be 4+, 3+ and 2+ from turn 4 and onwards, wasn't it ? I think it would work just as well in 8th edition. You could re-roll it with Command Points of course.

Edit : this would also make summoning more attractive, as you would be able to Deepstrike something with perfect timing instead of rolling randomly.

 Nym wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) It's not risk free. The problem with plasma overheat is the re-rolls from characters, not the plasma itself. That's what makes it risk free.

That was implied. The problem indeed comes from re-rolling 1's.

As for Reserves, it used to be 4+, 3+ and 2+ from turn 4 and onwards, wasn't it ? I think it would work just as well in 8th edition. You could re-roll it with Command Points of course.

It was, and I don't remember anyone that used it that way. If they had something that needed reserves, they brought <Unit X> (like the Land Raider Prometheus, or various characters, or enhanced comm array wargear, etc) that modified or re-rolled reserves. Otherwise, they just avoided it, usually. I know I did.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Reserves come in randomly" doesn't really fix it, as either it is so random the choice is automatically not to deepstrike (e.g. something like a 4+ with no re-rolls or modifiers per unit)

This is rather obviously false given the fact that deep strike worked this way in previous editions, and people still used it (and won lots of games with it).

In order to break alpha strike you need to increase durability or at the least make it more efficient cost wise directly or indirectly.

Part of it is terrain and stuff tough. A great power of alpha strike comes from near 100% targetting efficiency. There is almost nothing stopping you from making perfect target decisions. This is btw also a great power of a flyrant or manticore. It will "get" to its target.

Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Reserves come in randomly" doesn't really fix it, as either it is so random the choice is automatically not to deepstrike (e.g. something like a 4+ with no re-rolls or modifiers per unit)

This is rather obviously false given the fact that deep strike worked this way in previous editions, and people still used it (and won lots of games with it).

Unit1126PLL wrote:
It was, and I don't remember anyone that used it that way. If they had something that needed reserves, they brought <Unit X> (like the Land Raider Prometheus, or various characters, or enhanced comm array wargear, etc) that modified or re-rolled reserves. Otherwise, they just avoided it, usually. I know I did.

Drop Pods were the most popular deep striking unit after they were introduced, and they were popular because 50% of them didn't have to roll for reserves (among other things).

Melta storm troopers, hiding units in reserve to avoid the alpha strike, etc. I put units in reserve all the time back in 5th edition when you had to get a 4+ on turn 2. Maybe you never figured out how to make it work, but some of us did.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Reserves come in randomly" doesn't really fix it, as either it is so random the choice is automatically not to deepstrike (e.g. something like a 4+ with no re-rolls or modifiers per unit)

This is rather obviously false given the fact that deep strike worked this way in previous editions, and people still used it (and won lots of games with it).

Not if you knew what you were doing. People didn't rely on DS without shenanigans to affect reserve rolls. 7th was dominated by deathstars and the didn't rely on deepstrike. And summoning demon lists just trew buckets of dice/WC at the problem so they would more reliably get the average.

I disagree on making reserves random from turn 2. We have years of data showing how this makes deep striking units more of a liability than anything. Why else would each edition have made it easier to bring them in?

However, I could see bringing in the reserves on a 3+ from turn 1. Possibly include a stratagem that makes this a 2+ for a single unit.
That would create the possibility on not brining in a crucial unit when you need it, without limiting it to later turns. This should allow lists with 2-3 units work just fine, while armies that "choose" to rely on many units dropping in a bit less Alpha-striky

 Peregrine wrote:
Melta storm troopers, hiding units in reserve to avoid the alpha strike, etc. I put units in reserve all the time back in 5th edition when you had to get a 4+ on turn 2. Maybe you never figured out how to make it work, but some of us did.

I did figure out how to make it work... with a 10-pt wargear upgrade that gave me modifiers, or an astropath that gave me re-rolls, or a master of the fleet that gave me modifiers...

...seriously peregrine, do you even read my posts?

I said either it would be randumb and unreliable, in which case no one would use it, or it would come with ways to make it reliable, in which case, people will use it... but then it's just reliable, so essentially the same as it is now except for a small chance of failure which has no player input at all. I thought you were all about player input?

 Nym wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) It's not risk free. The problem with plasma overheat is the re-rolls from characters, not the plasma itself. That's what makes it risk free.

That was implied. The problem indeed comes from re-rolling 1's.

As for Reserves, it used to be 4+, 3+ and 2+ from turn 4 and onwards, wasn't it ? I think it would work just as well in 8th edition. You could re-roll it with Command Points of course.

Edit : this would also make summoning more attractive, as you would be able to Deepstrike something with perfect timing instead of rolling randomly.

Random reserves is pretty terrible, I am very much glad to see that mechanic long gone.

I agree first turn advantage is too much. Here is what I would do:

1) In the first Battle Round, all hit rolls are at -1. Call it night fighting, call it a penalty to represent that the army has just arrived at the warzone and is pooped/disoriented... Whatever

2) No deep striking in the first Battle Round. Let the ground troops fight it out for a round first.

3) Raven Guard/Alpha Legion etc strat is changed to a simple infiltrate deployment. Current wording allows way too much cheese!

You won't see a major shift to IGOUGO, despite GW sneaking in some "fixes" of their own in random scenarios and a few codices. GW knows going first is too strong unless your table is covered with terrain, but a fix would be way too difficult.

 Peregrine wrote:

This is the correct answer. The only solution is a new edition that makes 40k a wargame, instead of a CCG with "cards" you have to paint yourself. And I'm glad people are finally starting to agree with what I was saying from day one, that 8th edition is a dumpster fire of bad design.

Just last Saturday I played Tau vs Eldar, and turn 1 was mostly about positioning and handling screening units. In my last tournament I played IG vs IG and first turn saw only a single leman russ lost on both sides thanks to smart play and cover.

8th is a great edition, and solid lists have many ways to mitigate getting alphastruck off the table. The game demands new strategies and playstyles, and it's not GWs fault that you're incapable to adapt your thinking.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I said either it would be randumb and unreliable, in which case no one would use it

Don't make such wide generalisations. I've played Orks for 4 editions, we've hardly ever had any way to modify Reserve rolls, and still many Ork players have used planes, Deffkoptas and other units that needed to roll in order to show up on the table.

Also, people didn't use Reserves because it was DEADLY. A 400pts unit of Terminators could evaporate with a bad scatter. Now that scatter is out of the equation, rolling for Reserves would work a lot better.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I said either it would be randumb and unreliable, in which case no one would use it

You said it, but repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true. Back in 5th edition I'd often put my entire army in reserve, without any reserve modifiers, and win games because of it. The power of reserves, especially with alternate deployment options, is sufficient that even a high price in randomness is still worth paying. And perhaps you should think about the fact that in good game design you don't always use every option you have available. If deep striking (and reserves in general) is unreliable enough that you often decline to use the option then things are working as intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Why else would each edition have made it easier to bring them in?

Because GW is targeting a market that wants a CCG with expensive "cards", involving minimal skill or thought. Reserves have to happen sooner so that models get on the table faster and you roll more dice ASAP. It's the same reason why 8th lets you deep strike with no scatter, get easy turn-1 charges, shoot with effectively zero concern for LOS anywhere on the table, etc. The closer the game comes to "put all your models on the table and then roll dice until you roll enough dice" the better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:
1) In the first Battle Round, all hit rolls are at -1. Call it night fighting, call it a penalty to represent that the army has just arrived at the warzone and is pooped/disoriented... Whatever

Only if you don't allow it to stack with other -1 penalties, otherwise you have the absurd situation where low-BS armies can't even attempt to shoot on the first turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I said either it would be randumb and unreliable, in which case no one would use it

You said it, but repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true. Back in 5th edition I'd often put my entire army in reserve, without any reserve modifiers, and win games because of it. The power of reserves, especially with alternate deployment options, is sufficient that even a high price in randomness is still worth paying. And perhaps you should think about the fact that in good game design you don't always use every option you have available. If deep striking (and reserves in general) is unreliable enough that you often decline to use the option then things are working as intended.

You speak with conviction but not with truth. In 5th edition, reserving your entire army lost you the game because you'd have 0 models on the table at the end of a battle round game turn, since nothing came in Turn 1. It only worked for pod armies, because things did come in turn 1. If you were winning games with your entire army in reserve without reserve modifiers, then it's no wonder you won: you cheated.

And I disagree in general; perhaps in casual play, randumb is good, but in high-stakes competitive play, it was "bring reserve modification of some kind, or don't reserve." You either built your army list around certain units being in reserve, or you didn't.

And yes, Orks may have put stuff in reserve, but they were hardly a high-stakes competitive army (except 5th Edition's Nob Bikers, which had nothing to do with reserves and was before they had fliers).

EDIT:
6th Edition may have been the edition to introduce the game-turn tabling condition, in which case it was legal in 5th to reserve your whole army and have units come in piecemeal on a 4+. I still don't believe it was used in high-stakes competitive play. My memory is hazy.