Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

7 units with 13 pages of rules in a relatively underwhelming codex. In the lore, everything the Custodes used since before the Horus Heresy is still in use at present in 40k, and because of this information, everything in the Horus Heresy portion of Forge World should have been in the codex. Specifically you have the Sagittarum Guard, who are Custodes Guards, but with an advanced heavy bolter, 2 different variations of the Allarus Custodes, one with an Infernus Firepike, and a second with an advanced Stormbolter and an anti-vehicle specific jetbike.

I won't go into the other vehicles and variations of dreadnought, even though the dropship is a desperately needed troop transport option, but the simple kit changes for 3 good ranged options, and a jetbike for a much needed ranged anti-vehicle option, not being in the codex is a bit absurd.

Does anyone else believe the Custodes are left a bit wanting with their codex? I have my opinions, and for the most part are based entirely on lore built by GW, but I don't know if I want to go too heavily into Custodes if that is the best they will get, with having to purchase a Forge World book for essentially the other half of its army.

It's Pretty blatantly designed as an "Ally/Subfaction codex" in similar style to the way original admech, harlequins and militarum tempestus were. They can be built standalone, but it will never be as effective as an elite force embedded into another army.

Don't forget that FW units will eventually be updated. I want those gun dudes personally before I even consider making a Custodes force.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget that FW units will eventually be updated. I want those gun dudes personally before I even consider making a Custodes force.

You aren't wrong, and I meant to mention that, but you would have to buy a second, most likely, 40 dollar book, just to get a complete army, it just feels skeevy. I too am thinking of not using Custodes until I see where GW goes with them.

CelticKodiak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget that FW units will eventually be updated. I want those gun dudes personally before I even consider making a Custodes force.

You aren't wrong, and I meant to mention that, but you would have to buy a second, most likely, 40 dollar book, just to get a complete army, it just feels skeevy. I too am thinking of not using Custodes until I see where GW goes with them.

That's worth it. I hate blingy models and I still want to run a Custodes army at some point

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's worth it. I hate blingy models and I still want to run a Custodes army at some point

It isn't about blingy models, it is about the lack of units, and the fact that the Sagittarum Guard has been around for a while, not to mention you need a box of Custodes Guard and the conversion kit to get the Sagittarum Guard. Something as simple as adding a heavy bolter to the normal Custodes Kit and updating the 7th edition rules to 8th would give the Custodes a good ranged unit. Then the 2 Allarus kits just needed a Stormbolter and Infernus Firepikes with their fist weapons to give even more ranged options. Those 3 things alone would round out the Custodes completely, making a much better army.

GW have been doing this for a while, spinning out things like scions and sternguard(deathwatch) into whole books where they have no business being.

Custodes should have either been used to supplement the Grey Knights faction (who were also rather inappropriately spun out back in 5th edition) or released at the very least alongside the Sisters of Silence as a talons of the emperor codex.

Forgeworld do have enough extra models to help fill both them and the mechanicus out to better sized factions but the two halves of the company don't seem to like the idea of co-operating on this new edition.

they have so few units because GW have produced so few models, nothing more, nothing less.

you could perhaps have had the spear & sword custodians as separate unit types to pad it out slightly further, or allowed one or two of the conventional marine units beyond the LR in, maybe even allowed conventional marines in a couple of units in there, but frankly what would be the point?

if they sell well you will get more plastic models then a 2nd edition of the codex that expands them in the not too distant future.

Don't get why the Sisters of Silence were not included, even as they currently are (three troop choices and a rhino) even if they were not going to make a HQ for them. Unless they will be the "core" of a later book

No Model, No Rules.

Can't have people CONVERTING or KITBASHING. That would be heresy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No Model, No Rules.

Can't have people CONVERTING or KITBASHING. That would be heresy.

except Grey Knights Grandmaster babycarrier......

I just think people need to stop expecting every tiny fringe element in 40K to be a massive, well-supported army. Most of them shouldn't even have a full codex. Same goes for complaining about a 5-7 unit army not being competitive in tournaments.

I mean if you expected a GW Custodes Codex to include rules for FW units you were setting yourself up for disappointment. Unless GW converts something into a plastic kit it isn't going to get rules - GW isn't going to point someone to FW to find models for their codex.

Forgeworld already released beta rules for grav tanks and dreadnaughts.

CelticKodiak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget that FW units will eventually be updated. I want those gun dudes personally before I even consider making a Custodes force.

You aren't wrong, and I meant to mention that, but you would have to buy a second, most likely, 40 dollar book, just to get a complete army, it just feels skeevy. I too am thinking of not using Custodes until I see where GW goes with them.

Other new factions started with a similar or smaller unit count.

I think that the better question is why would you expect to see rules for FW models in the codex?

 Elbows wrote:
I just think people need to stop expecting every tiny fringe element in 40K to be a massive, well-supported army. Most of them shouldn't even have a full codex. Same goes for complaining about a 5-7 unit army not being competitive in tournaments.

Its why we have codexes for Wolves and Angels now.

They started with just fluff only minor differences, then special rules for way they worked, then the occasional extra model, then more until they eventually became parodies of themselves.

The Custodes and similar factions at least can be expanded with less risk of this, in fact any other faction could do so other than marines which primarily use the same base units with bells and whistles on to make them "unique".

I think the Forge World issue is def valid here - we have a good range of units for Custodes, Ad Mech and Sisters of Silence being produced now - GW probably won't have the capacity to do all of these - certainly have not bothered with Ad Mech since their launch so putting them all in the Codex would have been great.

With all of the 30k units (except Valdor, for obvious reasons) included Custodes become a genuine army in their own right. They then have the following:

1 Special Character
3 types of Captain, at least one of which is fully customisable
2 types of Banner Bearer Characters
1 Elite Infantry unit with several possible loadouts (various spears and swords, axes and shields)
2 types of Terminator with various close combat and ranged weapon mixes
2 kinds of Troops, one offensive one defensive
1 Heavy Ranged Infantry unit
2 kinds of Jetbikes (or 1 kind with 5 different loadouts)
1 Light Skimmer
1 Heavy Transport
1 Battle Tank with 2 loadouts
2 Dreadnoughts, one offensive one defensive
1 Heavy Dreadnought with various loadouts
(If you want to include them) A second Heavy Transport and Dreadnought

kombatwombat wrote:
With all of the 30k units (except Valdor, for obvious reasons) included Custodes become a genuine army in their own right. They then have the following:

1 Special Character
3 types of Captain, at least one of which is fully customisable
2 types of Banner Bearer Characters
1 Elite Infantry unit with several possible loadouts (various spears and swords, axes and shields)
2 types of Terminator with various close combat and ranged weapon mixes
2 kinds of Troops, one offensive one defensive
1 Heavy Ranged Infantry unit
2 kinds of Jetbikes (or 1 kind with 5 different loadouts)
1 Light Skimmer
1 Heavy Transport
1 Battle Tank with 2 loadouts
2 Dreadnoughts, one offensive one defensive
1 Heavy Dreadnought with various loadouts
(If you want to include them) A second Heavy Transport and Dreadnought

With all those they are certainly far more unique than any of the SM Chapters with their own codex.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Its why we have codexes for Wolves and Angels now.

They started with just fluff only minor differences, then special rules for way they worked, then the occasional extra model, then more until they eventually became parodies of themselves.

Wolves and Angels have had codexes for as long as codexes have been a thing (2nd).

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Wolves and Angels have had codexes for as long as codexes have been a thing (2nd).

2e Blood Angels were a handful of named characters, the death company, and jump packs for veterans.
The marine sub-factions didn't properly diverge until 5th edition.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I just think people need to stop expecting every tiny fringe element in 40K to be a massive, well-supported army. Most of them shouldn't even have a full codex. Same goes for complaining about a 5-7 unit army not being competitive in tournaments.

Its why we have codexes for Wolves and Angels now.

They started with just fluff only minor differences, then special rules for way they worked, then the occasional extra model, then more until they eventually became parodies of themselves.

Care to explain the timeline of this enlightened point of view or am I correct in assuming that everything you mentioned happened in 2nd edition? Aside from the parody part, which is completely subjective and varies between factions.

A.T. wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Wolves and Angels have had codexes for as long as codexes have been a thing (2nd).

2e Blood Angels were a handful of named characters, the death company, and jump packs for veterans.
The marine sub-factions didn't properly diverge until 5th edition.

And 3rd edition they had furious charge, faster rhino's, etc. They were pretty divergent at that point.

I just think people need to stop expecting every tiny fringe element in 40K to be a massive, well-supported army. Most of them shouldn't even have a full codex. Same goes for complaining about a 5-7 unit army not being competitive in tournaments.

Its why we have codexes for Wolves and Angels now

They started with just fluff only minor differences, then special rules for way they worked, then the occasional extra model, then more until they eventually became parodies of themselves.

Care to explain the timeline of this enlightened point of view or am I correct in assuming that everything you mentioned happened in 2nd edition? Aside from the parody part, which is completely subjective and varies between factions.

Rogue Trader - Wolves were just another Chapter
Book of the Astonomican with the first army lists for all factions they had a campaign based around them and nothing unusual
I would need to check the edition of my Space Wolves Codex's to see when they first became proper Vikings - not sure if the novels came first or the Codex Vikingness.
Wolf Guard, Scouts, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs and Blood Claws - ie slightly different tactical, assault etc - all of which could have been general upgrades to those units and hence been used for other Chapters.

And then - Eventually we got Murder McMurder, Wolves riding on Wolves and Wolf Sleighs because they ran out of ideas and had to keep making new stuff for the Wolves rather than new units for all non Codex adherent Marines

We could have had Marine's riding Beasts for instance as a generic unit.

And 3rd edition they had furious charge, faster rhino's, etc. They were pretty divergent at that point.

Yep a couple of minor rules and the odd special character - the Custodes and other new factions have much more diversity than the Wolves or the Angels had then and they got codexes. But then so do the Guard and they still don't get their own codexes.

since the codex astartes mandates 10 companies of 100 marines doesn't that mean that the Custodes should be 10x the size of any given space marine chapter yet so few options. I do agree in that I would prefer more units be present in their codex but the argument that they are too niche in the universe when they theoretically are larger than any given loyalist chapter is absurd.

As for units I tend to agree, they should have at the very least have been a joint codex with the sisters of silence since they came in the same box and in the fluff work together. also with the custodies just having fnp against psychic on a 6+ seems easier to just give them sisters of silence allies, heck a united imperium book would have been nice.

as for allied with gray knights I dilike that idea s it seems like a bandage to both. sure it on a gameplay level makes both armies better but does nto address how weak gray knights are as a whole. suddenly why are grey knight terminators and paladins so bad? who cares you got custodies... still not addressing the bad units just putting shiny gold units in to augment silver ones. fluff wise gray knights are supposed to be like low key, fight chaos and do it quietly, hard for astartes even harder for larger custodies.

I just want the grav tanks, dread and melta spears.

Space Wolves organisation being different goes right back to 2nd Edition Space Marine, while 1st Edition 40k was still on the shelves. IIRC they were the only chapter to be different at that point, presented as much as an example that not all chapters were the same.

I found it super funny to watch. First gw charges Talons players (who we're started together so probably bought models together) for two maybe three books by splitting the units up. Then they charge you for another book to play the one single army. XD in total GW will get about £100-150+ out of every Talons player just in rule books! XD that's basically £12 a month now for every month to play 40k with the models you already own.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

CelticKodiak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't forget that FW units will eventually be updated. I want those gun dudes personally before I even consider making a Custodes force.

You aren't wrong, and I meant to mention that, but you would have to buy a second, most likely, 40 dollar book, just to get a complete army, it just feels skeevy. I too am thinking of not using Custodes until I see where GW goes with them.

Other new factions started with a similar or smaller unit count.

I think that the better question is why would you expect to see rules for FW models in the codex?

I expect a well rounded army based on lore GW wrote themselves, not breaking anything by adding them, but by not doing so, leaves the army in a stale place at release. Forge World makes rules for the core game all the time, the Sagittarum Guard were in 7th, yet when the codex for 8th rolled around, the core ranged unit for the Custodes was left out. FW have also added beta rules for 2 better dreadnoughts, because the venerable contemptors look like garbage compared to the rest of the models, and 2 grav tanks, one being completely useless compared to the Venerable Land Raider at only a few points less, and a grav tank that actually adds long range anti vehicle support that is needed, cheaper than the Ven Land Raider, it is the only vehicle worth its price as of now, and its beta rules.

Also, the Sagittarum Guard aren't models made by FW, its a conversion kit that adds ARMS and a GUN that you add to a Custodian Guard model you buy separately. If GW is struggling to add ARMS and a GUN to the Custodian Guard kit and put some rules in for one more unit, then there are way more serious problems at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I just think people need to stop expecting every tiny fringe element in 40K to be a massive, well-supported army. Most of them shouldn't even have a full codex. Same goes for complaining about a 5-7 unit army not being competitive in tournaments.

A. I never said anything about being competitive in tournaments, all I spoke of is AT MOST, 2 to 3 VARIANTS of units already in the codex to be added.
B. If the Adeptus Custodes are a "fringe element", why are they one of the largest force the Imperium has? Even though they do not use Gene Seeds and the cost to create a single Custode is super high compared to a group of Space Marines, they essentially have 10 chapters worth of Custodes in the Imperial Palace, and now, defending Terra on other worlds, since the Space Marines and Imperial Guard cannot do their job.
C. What I expect is for GW to learn from their previous mistakes of releasing low unit count armies, and simply read through a little of the lore they created to add the Sagittarum Guard, which was in 7th, to give us a ranged option for our army, and the Infernus Firepikes for our Allarus Custodes, so we have some dedicated ranged anti-vehicle options that isn't a single, easy to focus, vehicle.

But wait, there's more! Based on lore alone, not just the fact they have been released together under the Talons of the Emperor before, the Sisters of Silence will now be another, separate army, that I have no doubt will be a mess of 5-7 units for a full priced codex and stupidly overpriced models. With that they waste time that could be used to focus on getting out armies that need the codex, like the Orks and Space Wolves, instead of just releasing a Talons of the Emperor codex with the Custodes units and Sisters of Silence, making one, complete, well-supported army. That doesn't make them money though, so why be rational and reasonable?

You dodged the point completely. What other FW models have gotten rules in a codex this edition?

Of course the FW rules are rubbish, they almost always are, why would you expect any different?

 Scott-S6 wrote:
You dodged the point completely. What other FW models have gotten rules in a codex this edition?

Of course the FW rules are rubbish, they almost always are, why would you expect any different?

Because FW is automatically broken because FW, even though that was only ever a few units ever.

the Saggatarius Guard have NEVER been in 40k, not in 7th edition, the horus heresy is a differant game