Looking for advice: Running Assault Marines or Vanguard Veterans

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**spiralingcadaver**

As the title says. I'm not concerned with tournament meta etc., just with how to run them reasonably effectively, and I don't have the experience with 8th enough to feel through it as I build the units.

Basically, I'm interested in some power armor marines with melee capabilities, since I have some unbuilt units (I expect either 1-2 5 man units or one up to 10).

Ideally, I'd like a unit that I run without jump packs, or where swapping jump packs for foot slogging won't hurt them, since I don't have any jump characters at the moment, but I'm fairly flexible.

Basically, for small games or small additions, what do people feel is a good way of running either variety of assault marines (if at all)?

(Thanks, in advance!)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Assault Marines are just awful. Vanguard are only a couple points more for more LD and attacks.

**spiralingcadaver**

Okay; any advice on how I should run Vanguard, then?

**Martel732**

Yes. Vanguard can do a lot of things, really. In the BA, view them as a skew option to DC and SG, as vanguards have access to storm shields.

Point 1: The sarge gets a hammer b/c he's got 3 swings with it.

Point 2: If you've get access to reroll 1's that can keep up, I really like some plasma pistols

Point 3: Storm shields are great vs a lot of weapons, but don't help much vs pure dakka. Use vanguards accordingly.

I think for BA, the plasma pistol/storm shield loadout has mixed into some power weapon/storm shield and chainsword/plasma pistols has worked the best for me.

**spiralingcadaver**

Cool, thanks. Is a transport at all reasonable, or should I just strap packs on them?

**Martel732**

I like jump packs, but then I'm BA. It's actually kinda hard to assault out of transports, imo. And <fly> got a tasty buff in the FAQ for assaulting. That is, you can ignore vertical distance for charges as well as regular movement.

Pack in those plasma pistols though to create charging holes in units who have crushed themselves into tiny terrain features. If you have no room to place your model next to the enemy, the charge AUTOMATICALLY fails. That's also a new limitation from the FAQ.

One more note: regular power plasma pistols have a use for capping T3 power armor units like sisters and eldar. So they have value even without overcharging, imo.

**spiralingcadaver**

Thanks again for the advice.

I'm thinking something along the lines of:
TH/SS sergeant
A couple power weapon/SS marines
A couple PP/SS marines
A couple double bolt pistol marines, to soak hits

Thoughts?

**Martel732**

Double bolt pistol. I've never considered this. Probably because the BA chapter trait works well with chainswords. Give it a try and let me know!

Just for reference, I like 5-6 plasma pistols per 10 men, so they can do some damage on a drop. Dropping within 12" negates -1 to hit army strats and the -3 is good for burning jerks like dark reapers out of cover!

**spiralingcadaver**

My thought with the double-pistol is, you're not always going to get into melee, so, if you need some fall guys, they might as well have a chance to attack before they die...

**Martel732**

That's true. What chapter do you run?

**Primark G**

Go all double Chainsword.

**Martel732**

Do NOT go all double chainsword. I don't even do this with BA. The plasma pistols have been key many times. Double bolt pistols in many ways function as good as the chainswords, but at range.

**Primark G**

Playtest it. SF123 advocates sentry guns.

**bort**

My ingame xp with them is sorta limited, but I liked running 1-2 with dual chainswords as my ablative wounds vs small arms, 1-2 with chainsword/SS as ablative wounds vs big attacks, and then the rest with dual plasma pistols or whatever more expensive CC weapons you wanted.

**Martel732**

I really like the dual bolt pistols over the dual chainswords. More damage up front, and you can shoot them in CC. You lose two attacks on your opponents turn. I'm not sweating that with my power weapon boys and hammer sarge.

**Primark G**

If I want shooty jump infantry the points are going into Inceptors.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Martel732 wrote:
Do NOT go all double chainsword. I don't even do this with BA. The plasma pistols have been key many times. Double bolt pistols in many ways function as good as the chainswords, but at range.

Bolt Pistols are lame in shooting though. Go special pistols or none at all.

**MacPhail**

Has anyone run White Scars Chapter Tactics on Assault Marines? The ability to Fall Back and still Charge might put Assault Marines or Vanguard Vets up a notch.

**Martel732**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Do NOT go all double chainsword. I don't even do this with BA. The plasma pistols have been key many times. Double bolt pistols in many ways function as good as the chainswords, but at range.

Bolt Pistols are lame in shooting though. Go special pistols or none at all.

The point is that they're free. He's looking for bullet soakers. And they are also a good hedge against not making the first assault. Don't forget that the enemy can make themselves unassaultable with clever usage of terrain now.

**AlmightyWalrus**

If they're on foot I'd probably take Company Command Squads instead, they can take Storm Bolters and Chainswords. 3 attacks in CC and (up to) 4 shots is pretty OK.

**Primark G**

Black Templars have good CTs for melee - might want to check those while you are at it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
Black Templars have good CTs for melee - might want to check those while you are at it.

Oh they're a good tactic for a melee army. The issue is Marines aren't terribly great at melee so...

**Silentz**

Don't build Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield! You will massively regret it and end up pulling their arms off.

TH/SS is a 7th edition thing where the closest model was the one taking damage so you needed to protect your best damage (TH) with your best defence (SS)

In 8th, YOU choose the models you take saves on... So you end up having this dilemma where you want the TH dude tonlive... but he's the guy with the defences!

You want opposite... the models who take the saves run Chainsword or Bolt Pistol and Storm Shield. The ones who do the damage run TH and Plasma Pistol or Chainsword.

**spiralingcadaver**

Silentz, I hadn't thought about that approach; thanks for the thoughts on that.

Regarding chapter tactics, I'm still undecided (since I'm just getting back into things). I play Astral Claws, so Ultras seem fluffiest (I'm assuming I can't call them a Dark Angels successor? It seems really weird that they'd be able to be a non-codex option). Mechanically, they seem a decent choice.

Also, double-checking, I can't take characters from the founding chapter as "counts-as" and take characters from the army using its rules, right?

**Slayer-Fan123**

I went with Raven Guard for my Astral Claws for the sole reason it's the only Chapter Tactic that won't bite you in the ass.

**spiralingcadaver**

I'm not sure what you mean by that? I don't really see many downsides; mostly just some require specific conditions to be more useful...

**Slayer-Fan123**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by that? I don't really see many downsides; mostly just some require specific conditions to be more useful...

Well the main point to use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics is for the unlocking of their special characters. Therefore you might as well go for Raven Guard for representation.

**Perth**

A note on double chainswords, I believe every Vanguard squad should have a single model without a gun (double chainswords or a power weapon/chainsword). This guy gets to be your dedicated grenade thrower, remember they've got those bad boys, they're really useful and way better than a Bolt Pistol.

**Primark G**

Krak kills.

**spiralingcadaver**

Perth wrote:
A note on double chainswords, I believe every Vanguard squad should have a single model without a gun (double chainswords or a power weapon/chainsword). This guy gets to be your dedicated grenade thrower, remember they've got those bad boys, they're really useful and way better than a Bolt Pistol.

That's a great reminder! I'd thought of that on other units, but somehow hadn't processed that for these guys.