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Hey all, had a question regarding which chapter tactics are allowed to FW marines. According to the FAQ, i can use just about anything, but as i understand it, i dont get the special characters/relics/etc (which im fine with), but is there anything else i lose out on, or prevents me from using non-vanilla tactics? For example, i want an army with asterion and hecaton (with minotaurs keyword), but using BA tactics for the melee buffs for everything else, is that legal? The whole 8th ed keyword debacle has me perplexed. Thanks.


Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

You can use BA chapter tactic red thirst, but you cant use their named characters, warlord traits, and relics.

So no tycho, dante, or anything, but i can use asterion moloc and hecaton with super assault squads? Do i use the generic warlord traits then? And no relics at all im assuming? Much appreciated man

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
Hey all, had a question regarding which chapter tactics are allowed to FW marines. According to the FAQ, i can use just about anything, but as i understand it, i dont get the special characters/relics/etc (which im fine with), but is there anything else i lose out on, or prevents me from using non-vanilla tactics? For example, i want an army with asterion and hecaton (with minotaurs keyword), but using BA tactics for the melee buffs for everything else, is that legal? The whole 8th ed keyword debacle has me perplexed. Thanks.


Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

This FAQ answer does not tell you which Chapter Tactics you can take. It tells you what Chapters you can use when replacing <Chapter> on a Datasheet. When choosing Chapter Tactics, unless Minotaurs are a Blood Angels Successor Chapter (like Flesh Tearers) you do not have permission to gain the Blood Angels Chapter Tactic.

Since GW pushes the "chimeric genestock" narrative for Minotaurs, would it be in the realm of possibility to use BA then?

 alextroy wrote:

 Mhoppe10 wrote:
Hey all, had a question regarding which chapter tactics are allowed to FW marines. According to the FAQ, i can use just about anything, but as i understand it, i dont get the special characters/relics/etc (which im fine with), but is there anything else i lose out on, or prevents me from using non-vanilla tactics? For example, i want an army with asterion and hecaton (with minotaurs keyword), but using BA tactics for the melee buffs for everything else, is that legal? The whole 8th ed keyword debacle has me perplexed. Thanks.


Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

This FAQ answer does not tell you which Chapter Tactics you can take. It tells you what Chapters you can use when replacing <Chapter> on a Datasheet. When choosing Chapter Tactics, unless Minotaurs are a Blood Angels Successor Chapter (like Flesh Tearers) you do not have permission to gain the Blood Angels Chapter Tactic.

Citation please. If he can replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS he gets red thirst. On second thought he can use everything BLOOD ANGELS have, because asterion and hecaton count as BLOOD ANGELS.

 p5freak wrote:
You can use BA chapter tactic red thirst, but you cant use their named characters, warlord traits, and relics.

As long as we get Death Company and Sanguine Guard and the tasty Strategems I wouldn't care.

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please. If he can replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS he gets red thirst. On second thought he can use everything BLOOD ANGELS have, because asterion and hecaton count as BLOOD ANGELS.

That's the rub, he CAN'T replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS. He has to use MINOTAURS.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please. If he can replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS he gets red thirst. On second thought he can use everything BLOOD ANGELS have, because asterion and hecaton count as BLOOD ANGELS.

That's the rub, he CAN'T replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS. He has to use MINOTAURS.

Why cant he replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS when the FW FAQ allows it ?

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?

A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please. If he can replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS he gets red thirst. On second thought he can use everything BLOOD ANGELS have, because asterion and hecaton count as BLOOD ANGELS.

That's the rub, he CAN'T replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS. He has to use MINOTAURS.

Why cant he replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS when the FW FAQ allows it ?

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?

A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

MINOTAURS is not <CHAPTER> If he wants to use the MINOTAURS keyword, and its special characters, he cannot use the Blood Angels rules because they are not canonically a Blood Angels successor. Now, if he were to use MINETAURS, he could say they are a Blood Angels Successor, but wouldn't get any MINOTAURS special characters.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Citation please. If he can replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS he gets red thirst. On second thought he can use everything BLOOD ANGELS have, because asterion and hecaton count as BLOOD ANGELS.

That's the rub, he CAN'T replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS. He has to use MINOTAURS.

Why cant he replace MINOTAURS with BLOOD ANGELS when the FW FAQ allows it ?

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?

A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

MINOTAURS is not <CHAPTER> If he wants to use the MINOTAURS keyword, and its special characters, he cannot use the Blood Angels rules because they are not canonically a Blood Angels successor. Now, if he were to use MINETAURS, he could say they are a Blood Angels Successor, but wouldn't get any MINOTAURS special characters.

"
Isn't the founding chapter of the Minotraurs unknown? Also doesn't the book also say something like "Select the parent chapter of your successor. If you are unsure of the successor look it up or pick one" (<Very rough memory)? So if so you could claim you don't know the founding chapter of the Minotaurs so you just select blood angels giving as your chapter tactic thus giving you access to their units, red thirst, and stratagems to use alongside the Minotaurs characters,

I also assumed all the FW character could only be used for Codex: Space Marines up till this point so this is very interesting.
>

That is in Codex Space Marines and allows you to pick a Chapter Tactic from Codex Space Marines.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
MINOTAURS is not <CHAPTER>

If MINOTAURS is not chapter, what is it ?

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
MINOTAURS is not <CHAPTER>

If MINOTAURS is not chapter, what is it ?

It is the keyword you replace <CHAPTER> with. You cannot pick BLOOD ANGELS, and MINOTAURS is not a Blood Angels Successor, so you cannot use Blood Angel rules for them.

The only permission you have is to use the rules from the Space Marines codex.

P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels successor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

 Crimson wrote:
P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels suggessor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

No, but the Blood Angels codex is clear, you can only use the rules for BLOOD ANGELS and Successor Chapters.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels suggessor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

No, but the Blood Angels codex is clear, you can only use the rules for BLOOD ANGELS and Successor Chapters.

So how do you know Minotaurs are not Blood Angels successor chapter?

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels suggessor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

No, but the Blood Angels codex is clear, you can only use the rules for BLOOD ANGELS and Successor Chapters.

So how do you know Minotaurs are not Blood Angels successor chapter?

"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

So if chapter has unknown parent do you think they cannot get chapter rules at all?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels suggessor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

No, but the Blood Angels codex is clear, you can only use the rules for BLOOD ANGELS and Successor Chapters.

So how do you know Minotaurs are not Blood Angels successor chapter?

"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

You cannot prove a positive in a fictional setting though. There's no way you can prove that Lamenters are a Blood Angels successor or Flesh Tearers are a Blood Angels successor. Hell, even the Blood Angels themselves might've conceivably had an Imperial Fist/the Beast Awakens-style annihilation at some point between the Heresy and 40K and been replaced from White Scar geneseed. You cannot even prove, definitively and excluding small but >0 chances of unrevealed fictional twists, that Blood Angels are truly Blood Angels.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
P5freak, the question is not whether you can replace MINOTAURS with anything, you obviously can't. The question is whether you can make Blood Angels suggessor chapter and give it MINOTAURS keyword.Nothing in the FW index really indicates that it is only meant to work with the vanilla marine codex.

No, but the Blood Angels codex is clear, you can only use the rules for BLOOD ANGELS and Successor Chapters.

So how do you know Minotaurs are not Blood Angels successor chapter?

"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

You can prove a negative like that if you have a statement somewhere saying which Chapter the Minotaurs are a successor chapter of. If there's no statement one way or another, then someone can claim they are a Blood Angels successor chapter for their games.

The problem with your statement is that you would need proof of which chapter Minotaurs are a successor chapter of, and would deny them having any chapter tactic at all if you didn't have proof. Since we are told all marines have a chapter tactic, your approach here isn't valid.

It seems that the BA codex has an exclusive list of which chapters are successor chapters. Unless your chapter is one of those or has a special rule/fluff section stating that they are a blood angels successor then you can't use the BA codex (with the always caveat of TO or opponent permission).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It seems that the BA codex has an exclusive list of which chapters are successor chapters. Unless your chapter is one of those or has a special rule/fluff section stating that they are a blood angels successor then you can't use the BA codex (with the always caveat of TO or opponent permission).

And where would that list be?

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

So if chapter has unknown parent do you think they cannot get chapter rules at all?

If they have an unknown parent they can use the Codex: SM rules, as explicitly stated.

doctortomMade wrote:You cannot prove a positive in a fictional setting though. There's no way you can prove that Lamenters are a Blood Angels successor or Flesh Tearers are a Blood Angels successor. Hell, even the Blood Angels themselves might've conceivably had an Imperial Fist/the Beast Awakens-style annihilation at some point between the Heresy and 40K and been replaced from White Scar geneseed. You cannot even prove, definitively and excluding small but >0 chances of unrevealed fictional twists, that Blood Angels are truly Blood Angels.

If you're going to just make stuff up then I want Gulliman to buff my Deathwatch. For better or worse, the rules have told us to look at the fluff.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It seems that the BA codex has an exclusive list of which chapters are successor chapters. Unless your chapter is one of those or has a special rule/fluff section stating that they are a blood angels successor then you can't use the BA codex (with the always caveat of TO or opponent permission).

And where would that list be?

It starts on page 18 of the BA codex.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"It doesn't say I can't" is not an excuse. You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove the Minotaurs ARE a successor of the Blood Angels, not for me to prove they are not.

So if chapter has unknown parent do you think they cannot get chapter rules at all?

If they have an unknown parent they can use the Codex: SM rules, as explicitly stated.

doctortomMade wrote:You cannot prove a positive in a fictional setting though. There's no way you can prove that Lamenters are a Blood Angels successor or Flesh Tearers are a Blood Angels successor. Hell, even the Blood Angels themselves might've conceivably had an Imperial Fist/the Beast Awakens-style annihilation at some point between the Heresy and 40K and been replaced from White Scar geneseed. You cannot even prove, definitively and excluding small but >0 chances of unrevealed fictional twists, that Blood Angels are truly Blood Angels.

If you're going to just make stuff up then I want Gulliman to buff my Deathwatch. For better or worse, the rules have told us to look at the fluff.

Guilliman does buff the Deathwatch

But yeah, the Blood Angels codex gives you permission to use the codex for successor chapters. The examples explicitly include chapters with unknown founding chapters such as the Lamenters, who might be Blood Angels successors, and thus can legitimately use their rules for game-purposes. Ergo, there's nothing that would prevent the Minotaurs from following the same example (being of the same founding as the Lamenters no less).

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But yeah, the Blood Angels codex gives you permission to use the codex for successor chapters. The examples explicitly include chapters with unknown founding chapters such as the Lamenters, who might be Blood Angels successors, and thus can legitimately use their rules for game-purposes. Ergo, there's nothing that would prevent the Minotaurs from following the same example (being of the same founding as the Lamenters no less).

Lamenters are not an Unknown Founding? Lamenters have always been Blood Angels successors and have always been from the 21st (aka Cursed) founding. There is nothing "unknown" about them. The fact they are on a list of successor chapters LITERALLY means they know who's geneseed they are using.

In fact, their ENTIRE REASON FOR BEING is as an experiment to try and fix the Blood Angels geneseed's flaws. To claim they might not be Blood Angels successors is like trying to claim the Black Templars aren't a Imperial Fists successor because they don't have the word Fist in their name ("That is because they are absolute lunatics." - Lord Adorable)

Sunny Side Up wrote:
But yeah, the Blood Angels codex gives you permission to use the codex for successor chapters. The examples explicitly include chapters with unknown founding chapters such as the Lamenters, who might be Blood Angels successors, and thus can legitimately use their rules for game-purposes. Ergo, there's nothing that would prevent the Minotaurs from following the same example (being of the same founding as the Lamenters no less).

Uh, you do know that listing them under the BA successor chapters means that their lineage is known. It's BA. Just to go one step further all of the successor chapters listed in the BA codex have a known founding chapter (suprisingly enough they're all BA).

If you can find something in the Minotaur fluff or rules that says that they might be a BA successor chapter then you would be able to use the BA successor rules. Otherwise you have to use the SM codex.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It seems that the BA codex has an exclusive list of which chapters are successor chapters. Unless your chapter is one of those or has a special rule/fluff section stating that they are a blood angels successor then you can't use the BA codex (with the always caveat of TO or opponent permission).

And where would that list be?

It starts on page 18 of the BA codex.

That double page spread is just eight examples, not a list of all their successors.

Since this thread specifically deals with Minotaurs that's what I'm restricting my statements to. I should have made that more clear in the beginning.

While it's not explicitly stated that the list is exhaustive it implies if your chapter is not an early founding then it shouldn't be a BA successor due to the unstable gene seed being found out. I think that the fluff in the intro to the successors implies that these are all the "official" successor chapters. If FW had wanted the Minotaurs to be a BA successor chapter, I believe, that would have said as much.