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I have most of my IK/IG army ready for a 2000 point army, but I think current free/gaming time will limit me to 1000 points in most games. So, do you all think Knights can be played as a 1000 point army, or are they over 1000 point armies?

Thanks

SG

Yep - won 750 tournament with knights.

Gallant and 2 armigers.

At 1000 you have a lot more options.

There is a difference between "Can" and "Should".

Granted, it's not as bad as in 7th because of everything wounding on 6's and lots of mortal wounds going around, but it's still a little, let's say "off" if you don't at least give advance warning.

 ServiceGames wrote:
I have most of my IK/IG army ready for a 2000 point army, but I think current free/gaming time will limit me to 1000 points in most games. So, do you all think Knights can be played as a 1000 point army, or are they over 1000 point armies?

Thanks

SG

Are your opponents really good/tryhards? Go for it. Are you playing pickup games at the local store? I'd at a minimum let my opponent know in advance.

I would flat out turn down a 1k game against all Knights. Not the kind of "fun" I am looking for when I go down to the store once a week to play.

If you’re playing competitively then go for it. If youre going for a casual pick up game then they can be pretty unfun to play against at that level.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I would flat out turn down a 1k game against all Knights. Not the kind of "fun" I am looking for when I go down to the store once a week to play.

Punisher23 wrote:
If you’re playing competitively then go for it. If youre going for a casual pick up game then they can be pretty unfun to play against at that level.

I'd take that match over fighting 1000 points of IG any day of the week. It's a lot easier to drop one Knight in a single turn than it is to drop four or five Russes or 10+ guard squads.

Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

The Newman wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I would flat out turn down a 1k game against all Knights. Not the kind of "fun" I am looking for when I go down to the store once a week to play.

Punisher23 wrote:
If you’re playing competitively then go for it. If youre going for a casual pick up game then they can be pretty unfun to play against at that level.

I'd take that match over fighting 1000 points of IG any day of the week. It's a lot easier to drop one Knight in a single turn than it is to drop four or five Russes or 10+ guard squads.

I think all this depends on the situation. If I arranged to meet someone for a casual game with no other info and they brought even all Knights OR 200 guardsmen, I would feel a little peeved.

I'd still play the game, but I might be reluctant to do it again. Either way it's a slog of a game that won't be that much fun.

HOWEVER

If I was arranging a casual 1k game, and the player said to me beforehand "Do you mind if I bring my all Knights army?" I'd be up for giving it a go! I may still only want to do it once or twice, but I'd be in a much more positive mindset about the experience, knowing what I'd be heading into.

BTW people who say "I won't play against 1k knights" realize that:

a) either he has armigers(which are lot less tough than basic knights) or:
b) he has <1000 pts in field AND only 3CP
c) he has only select knights OR has only 3 CP OR both...

1000 pts is too little to have 3 questoris. If he has 2 questoris he can't easily fit armiger to get 3 knights for super heavy detachment to get CP. Then he also has no non-knight detachment for sure. 2 questoris meanwhile without armiger eats up both detachments which give 0 CP so 3 CP max and if your select knights don't add up into 1000 pts you are playing with <1k.

BS doesn't seem to open up any list with knights for some reason and dont' recall where codex is so can't verify what combos are possible and what not. 2 gallant+armiger should be doable but is gallant+crusader+armiger possible?

I would play against it (IDC I play for fun, if I rarely play a random). But what fun do you have? The knight lance either trounces over there enemy or the enemy resounding win. It's a swing swing army. Not fun, is to variable. If playing a pick up (prob not the army to play). if playing a mate (make a scenario, could be fun), if playing a tourney (to random, with objectives etc, go a better faction).

It’s that whole problem of list tailoring. I let you know what I’m bringing, you tailor your list to defeat me, which makes it unfun for me. I don’t let you know what I am bringing, it’s “not fun” for you. The key issue is lack of two way communication, only one of us is providing information on what they will be bringing, if at all.

If armies were balanced, this issue would not exist. But they aren’t.

If you assume your opponent will try to win just like you, and you bring your “A” game, it’s on them for not bringing their “A” game.

If you tell people what are bringing, and they tailor, the feel bads are on you for not expecting a hard counter.

All in all, in a pickup game, either have a conversation before building your respective armies, or plan on someone having an unfun game. It’s the Grimdark of the Future, after all.

SJ

Pertinent question is do you want to play knights at 1000 points? Or do you have people that play at that level, or is there a sceen at your local for 1k points?

Knights are fine at 1k points. You're going to have to watch out for objectives, since you'll have very few models, but each one's pretty deadly to compensate.

People complaining about them being too good are just failing to realize that a pure knight army is inherently a skew list (since you literally have nothing but heavy tanks as options in the army), which is one of the primary ways to design a winning list. So right off the bat you have an army that's at least partially on the road to being powerful, no matter what you do. This upsets some people, even though the individual parts of a knight army aren't necessarily better than an equivalent amount of other armies' stuff (not that there isn't some hard stuff in that codex, of course).

Now, if you meant mixing in knights with your IG in a 1k army, then they'll also do just fine. You're basically swapping the tanks for walking tanks that have some really good relics/warlord traits/strats that support knights perfectly.

A 3++ on your super heavy, primary damage dealer is a tough nut to crack, for example, so adjust accordingly to your meta. If people play mostly weak lists, you may have to consider choosing sub-optimal builds (some of which are really cool, even if not as good from a pure numbers point of view) to avoid one sided games.

tneva82 wrote:
Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

That depends on the knight and what is on the Russes, not everyone puts the sponsons on them.

 Trimarius wrote:


Now, if you meant mixing in knights with your IG in a 1k army, then they'll also do just fine. You're basically swapping the tanks for walking tanks that have some really good relics/warlord traits/strats that support knights perfectly.

A 3++ on your super heavy, primary damage dealer is a tough nut to crack, for example, so adjust accordingly to your meta. If people play mostly weak lists, you may have to consider choosing sub-optimal builds (some of which are really cool, even if not as good from a pure numbers point of view) to avoid one sided games.

I played vs knights and knights with IG three times, so it may not be the best of sample, but at least as far as GK goes, they seem unbeatable. Specially the version of IG, because it has better shoting, better melee, and what is the most bizzar thing, more models to take objectives.

I would absolutely play against 1000 points of Knights. Although I would never fault anyone for not doing so.

When I made my Chaos knights + Mortarion list I did so knowing small games would be tough to find.

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

That depends on the knight and what is on the Russes, not everyone puts the sponsons on them.

4 russ even without sponsons is more pricey so if you can deal with knight you can take down even more points of IG for same price. If they have sponsons even BIGGER chunk of IG army dies for same effort as 1 knight so don't see what's the issue with russ is if you don't worry about dealing with knight. Russes take about same effort to take down anyway and lose their power faster.

Now 200+ IG troops in 1000 pts could be annoying due to sheer numbers you need to kill

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

That depends on the knight and what is on the Russes, not everyone puts the sponsons on them.

4 russ even without sponsons is more pricey so if you can deal with knight you can take down even more points of IG for same price. If they have sponsons even BIGGER chunk of IG army dies for same effort as 1 knight so don't see what's the issue with russ is if you don't worry about dealing with knight. Russes take about same effort to take down anyway and lose their power faster.

Now 200+ IG troops in 1000 pts could be annoying due to sheer numbers you need to kill

Four Russes are 4 more points than a Castilian. And I don't know why you'd think 36 wounds in three separate buckets wasn't substantially harder than 24 wounds on a single model, even with the invulns.

yes it perfectly can, but you will struggle when it comes to grabbing objectives.

as for is it fair to bring? i would say yes in all ways.
40k aint a rock paper scissor game, so there aint any point in trying to make it so by letting your opponent know what you are bringing just so he/she can counter your list.
however, i would ask what kind of force your opponent has when your in the clube/local/gw shop. if he/she is a fluff player or new i would not play agasint him/her whit knights at games at 1k and below.

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

That depends on the knight and what is on the Russes, not everyone puts the sponsons on them.

4 russ even without sponsons is more pricey so if you can deal with knight you can take down even more points of IG for same price. If they have sponsons even BIGGER chunk of IG army dies for same effort as 1 knight so don't see what's the issue with russ is if you don't worry about dealing with knight. Russes take about same effort to take down anyway and lose their power faster.

Now 200+ IG troops in 1000 pts could be annoying due to sheer numbers you need to kill

Four Russes are 4 more points than a Castilian. And I don't know why you'd think 36 wounds in three separate buckets wasn't substantially harder than 24 wounds on a single model, even with the invulns.

24 wounds with 5++ equals to lot more wounds than 36 wounds. The fact they are separate buckets just make it easier to reduce their power output so that's actually disadvantage for russes. There's not going to be such an overkill generally that it would be worry unless your AT is single shadowsword.

And the 4 russes costing 4 points more is precisely worse for IG. If you can deal with 1 ~400 pts knight(the 24W version) you can deal with 4 russ that cost more so you should be happier facing IG than knight. For same effort you kill 600 pts rather than 400 and the 600 loses their power faster as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
yes it perfectly can, but you will struggle when it comes to grabbing objectives.

as for is it fair to bring? i would say yes in all ways.
40k aint a rock paper scissor game, so there aint any point in trying to make it so by letting your opponent know what you are bringing just so he/she can counter your list.
however, i would ask what kind of force your opponent has when your in the clube/local/gw shop. if he/she is a fluff player or new i would not play agasint him/her whit knights at games at 1k and below.

Actually 40k has very strong rock paper scissor element. If you know what you face you can tool up. Hard counters will have HUUUUUUGE advantage. Imagine facing knights? Load up anti-knight weapons. Which likely will then suck if you face IG guardsmen spam. 3 shadowswords would suck against most armies but if you go against all knight army that's "hahaha". Know you'll be facing zero vehicles but huge units of soft infantry? Load up on punishers and watch opponents army literally just melt.

Which is why one side knowing what he will face means he can be unsportly and tool up against it and unless he's playing faction that just plain sucks(grey knights) his odds of winning goes up the roof compared to TAC list.

Indeed in 1k list if opponent knows he faces knights he can easily bring 2 shadowswords. Game pretty much won right there.

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well knight costs les than 4 russ so no wonder. 3 russ meanwhile is about price of knight so 36 wounds. Which funnily enough is same toughness as knight. So if you can deal with knight you can deal with 3 leman russ. Actually knight can be tougher so better statement would be if you can deal with knight you can deal with 4 russ.

That depends on the knight and what is on the Russes, not everyone puts the sponsons on them.

4 russ even without sponsons is more pricey so if you can deal with knight you can take down even more points of IG for same price. If they have sponsons even BIGGER chunk of IG army dies for same effort as 1 knight so don't see what's the issue with russ is if you don't worry about dealing with knight. Russes take about same effort to take down anyway and lose their power faster.

Now 200+ IG troops in 1000 pts could be annoying due to sheer numbers you need to kill

Four Russes are 4 more points than a Castilian. And I don't know why you'd think 36 wounds in three separate buckets wasn't substantially harder than 24 wounds on a single model, even with the invulns.

24 wounds with 5++ equals to lot more wounds than 36 wounds. The fact they are separate buckets just make it easier to reduce their power output so that's actually disadvantage for russes. There's not going to be such an overkill generally that it would be worry unless your AT is single shadowsword.

And the 4 russes costing 4 points more is precisely worse for IG. If you can deal with 1 ~400 pts knight(the 24W version) you can deal with 4 russ that cost more so you should be happier facing IG than knight. For same effort you kill 600 pts rather than 400 and the 600 loses their power faster as well.

Basic math says you're wrong. The 5++ is irrelevant until you hit AP 3, and 24 W with a 5++ isn't better than 36 W unless every single gun on the other side of the table is AP 4.

With your first knight, it really should be 4++ or 3++ every turn if going against a shooting heavy list. And command re-roll the worst damage result you take. Being borderline unkillable for the first two turns is pretty powerful on a 350-450pt model capable of massive damage output

 DoomMouse wrote:
With your first knight, it really should be 4++ or 3++ every turn if going against a shooting heavy list. And command re-roll the worst damage result you take. Being borderline unkillable for the first two turns is pretty powerful on a 350-450pt model capable of massive damage output

except doing that costs CP that a pure knights list at 1k just won't have to be able to pull that for multiple turns.

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Pertinent question is do you want to play knights at 1000 points? Or do you have people that play at that level, or is there a scene at your local for 1k points?

Excellent question. Answer is that I don't have the time right now to play a full 2000 point game. I have a wife and a two year old stepson that deserve my attention far more than any piece of plastic. That said, my wife doesn't mind me going every once in a while to play. On top of that, my local GW and/or FLGS are about 45 mins to an hour drive away from where I live. So, two hours of drive time + a game or two (even at 1000 points), and it'd end up likely being a 5 to 6 hour trip... 2000 points, I'd be gone the whole day.

SG

Ice_can wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
With your first knight, it really should be 4++ or 3++ every turn if going against a shooting heavy list. And command re-roll the worst damage result you take. Being borderline unkillable for the first two turns is pretty powerful on a 350-450pt model capable of massive damage output

except doing that costs CP that a pure knights list at 1k just won't have to be able to pull that for multiple turns.

6 CP starting with a free relic and WL trait. Even if you dont get the 3 SHD CP, at a minimum you have the 4++ base. Last I checked, RIS on a questoris class is still 1 CP so you would even in the worst case get three turns of RIS coverage. You guys talk like its a 6 turn shooting gallery, when the knights want to close with the LR's and tie them up/curbstomp them in CC. Five Russ' average 8-9 damage on a 3++ knight. That gives them plenty of time to close in with a 12" move. Like, outside of insane rolls, I don't see a situation where the Russ gunline wins vs. Knights on any deployment but hammer and anvil. If you lower the number of Russ' to four, you can run around with 60-70 infantry. But you don't need to kill all of them, just the ones in front of the tank you're going to charge and a Crusader can easily pick up a squad/turn from range. Hell, even warglaives with 8 attacks can make a decent sized hole, and once they make contact, they've effectively killed the Russ they touched in combat.

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
With your first knight, it really should be 4++ or 3++ every turn if going against a shooting heavy list. And command re-roll the worst damage result you take. Being borderline unkillable for the first two turns is pretty powerful on a 350-450pt model capable of massive damage output

except doing that costs CP that a pure knights list at 1k just won't have to be able to pull that for multiple turns.

6 CP starting with a free relic and WL trait. Even if you dont get the 3 SHD CP, at a minimum you have the 4++ base. Last I checked, RIS on a questoris class is still 1 CP so you would even in the worst case get three turns of RIS coverage. You guys talk like its a 6 turn shooting gallery, when the knights want to close with the LR's and tie them up/curbstomp them in CC. Five Russ' average 8-9 damage on a 3++ knight. That gives them plenty of time to close in with a 12" move. Like, outside of insane rolls, I don't see a situation where the Russ gunline wins vs. Knights on any deployment but hammer and anvil. If you lower the number of Russ' to four, you can run around with 60-70 infantry. But you don't need to kill all of them, just the ones in front of the tank you're going to charge and a Crusader can easily pick up a squad/turn from range. Hell, even warglaives with 8 attacks can make a decent sized hole, and once they make contact, they've effectively killed the Russ they touched in combat.

To get 6CP you are seriously limited what you can take and have armigers which aren't nearly as tough as questoris.

Also that questoris can't be everywhere so once it's in contact with one russ the other 4 russ are already elsewhere so you might not even be able to charge another russ next turn again. Or do you think russes will just sit there in row waiting for knight to charge them one by one? Maybe even giving consolidiate conveniently for next russ?

I reckon gallant, crusader and an armiger would be my pick at 1K for max competitive cheese. No one's going to be expecting that much armour at 1K

Probs give the crusader endless fury and 4++, and decide which relic/trait the gallant wants each game

tneva82 wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
With your first knight, it really should be 4++ or 3++ every turn if going against a shooting heavy list. And command re-roll the worst damage result you take. Being borderline unkillable for the first two turns is pretty powerful on a 350-450pt model capable of massive damage output

except doing that costs CP that a pure knights list at 1k just won't have to be able to pull that for multiple turns.

6 CP starting with a free relic and WL trait. Even if you dont get the 3 SHD CP, at a minimum you have the 4++ base. Last I checked, RIS on a questoris class is still 1 CP so you would even in the worst case get three turns of RIS coverage. You guys talk like its a 6 turn shooting gallery, when the knights want to close with the LR's and tie them up/curbstomp them in CC. Five Russ' average 8-9 damage on a 3++ knight. That gives them plenty of time to close in with a 12" move. Like, outside of insane rolls, I don't see a situation where the Russ gunline wins vs. Knights on any deployment but hammer and anvil. If you lower the number of Russ' to four, you can run around with 60-70 infantry. But you don't need to kill all of them, just the ones in front of the tank you're going to charge and a Crusader can easily pick up a squad/turn from range. Hell, even warglaives with 8 attacks can make a decent sized hole, and once they make contact, they've effectively killed the Russ they touched in combat.

To get 6CP you are seriously limited what you can take and have armigers which aren't nearly as tough as questoris.

Also that questoris can't be everywhere so once it's in contact with one russ the other 4 russ are already elsewhere so you might not even be able to charge another russ next turn again. Or do you think russes will just sit there in row waiting for knight to charge them one by one? Maybe even giving consolidiate conveniently for next russ?

There's no way you can't get 6 cp. You get 3 for a SHD and 3 for battleforged.

‘The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Superheavy
Detachment is changed to ‘None’ if it does not
contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanic unit,
and is changed to ‘+6 Command Points’ if it contains at
least three Imperial Knights Titanic units.’

One Questor + 2 armigers = 6 CP starting.

You can run 3 warglaives and a questor together at 1k points. If the tanks are spread out, there's good odds they all can't draw LOS on the same target, or at the very least aren't all drawing a bead on the same warglaive.

If you toe touch even two of them, the guard player will not have enough firepower to reliably drop even an Armiger/turn. The three armigers together can expect to cripple one LR a turn outside melta range, and with 30" range and 14" movement, they will get to shoot starting T1, with decent odds of being in half range. The crusader can expect to cripple another one at range. The guard player, assuming all four tanks have LOS on the same armiger (shouldn't be possible unless the LR's are bunched up), can drop one armiger or do 6-7 wounds to the 3++ Knight. Turn 2, the Knight will bracket another tank, and the armigers will guaranteed make contact with the chaff line at this point. Assuming the Knight player has any brains, the furthest available tanks are the ones that have been damaged by ranged fire, and the closer ones are charge candidates. Every time the LR backpedals, it's taking a -1 on its 9 heavy bolter shots since those don't get covered by GA. If it backpedals more than 5", it loses half its battlecannon shots. There's no way the LR's are kiting anything. Once they're set in place, that's it. Suggested board size for 1k points is 4x4, giving even less room to spread out and kite. There's no way for a Knight player to lose this fight other than cold dice or playing on a super low-terrain board and getting second turn.

I played GK against an IK and guard soup at 1000 points. we didn't even get to his turn two before we called it, with 2 strike squad guys left on my side and no losses on his.