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The wordage is:
Grot Krew
Each Mek gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes, the krew must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the Mek Gun, not the Krew.

"Some units - usually Characters - have abilities that affect certain models within given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect."

Because a Grot counts as the Mek Gun for "All rules purposes", they self satisfy the requirement of "Must be within 1" of their Mek Gun", as well as allowing the Mek Gun to be shot and fired from the grots.

What this means is that the Mek Gun (model) can hide behind cover while the Mek Gun (Grots) are placed everywhere else on the field, allowing for the Gun to shoot things it cannot see.
Bonus points if you Deepstrike the Mek Gun into terrain that would hide it, while the grots all show up all around the map, finally giving orks access to the board wide artillery they have always needed.


Edit: Hang on, because they are the same "Model" as each other. Does that mean the whole unit is un-targetable and un-attackable by RAW?

Try it with your TO. See how that goes!

RAW, I think you're right, but I would NOT play it that way.

Yes, they're one model (for rules purposes does not mean they actually become a single model, mind), but you're specifically told to measure from the Gun, not the Krew models.

Is this a serious thread?

 Larks wrote:
Yes, they're one model (for rules purposes does not mean they actually become a single model, mind), but you're specifically told to measure from the Gun, not the Krew models.

Is this a serious thread?

You are also told that the Grots count as the Gun.

Again, I doubt anyone is going to actually PLAY this by RAW, since it's borked, and the intentions are clear. Doesn't stop the RAW from being bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Larks wrote:
Yes, they're one model (for rules purposes does not mean they actually become a single model, mind), but you're specifically told to measure from the Gun, not the Krew models.

Is this a serious thread?

You are also told that the Grots count as the Gun.

Again, I doubt anyone is going to actually PLAY this by RAW, since it's borked, and the intentions are clear. Doesn't stop the RAW from being bad.

I've got a feeling that we'll see some mad lad play using this RAW rule as well as the Meganobz 2++ RAW rule in some super WAAC list.
It feels like there was zero rules thought put into this codex.

Well, it's all one unit, right? So the gretchin crew could be shot at like normal; and then eventually the gun+crew would lose enough wounds and all be removed from the board.

You can't count as a gun for shooting, but not count when being shot at.

You're misreading. The Krew doesn't count as a Mek Gun. The Krew+Mek Gun count as a single model. A Grot isn't a Mek Gun. And Mek Gun and its Krew simply counts as a single model. A Grot is still a Grot, and per the rules, must remain within 1" of its Gun.

 flandarz wrote:
You're misreading. The Krew doesn't count as a Mek Gun. The Krew+Mek Gun count as a single model. A Grot isn't a Mek Gun. And Mek Gun and its Krew simply counts as a single model. A Grot is still a Grot, and per the rules, must remain within 1" of its Gun.

The Grot no longer has a stat sheet as per latest codex, and that one snippet from above is all we have RAW to define a Grot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Well, it's all one unit, right? So the gretchin crew could be shot at like normal; and then eventually the gun+crew would lose enough wounds and all be removed from the board.

You can't count as a gun for shooting, but not count when being shot at.

Speaking of which, RAW may also define the Gun as a Grot, meaning that the Gun is also non targetable.

A GrotKrew IS a MekGun.

They don't have a separate stat line. "A MekGun and GrotKrew count as a single model, for ALL rules purposes".

If a Krew is not a Gun, then they're not a single model - they're, at minimum, two models.

The rule itself specifically calls them a "Mek Gun and Krew" and goes on to detail how the Krew must stay close to the Gun, cannot be targeted, and how the shots fired have to be measured from the Gun. Again, counting as a single model for rule purposes doesn't mean that they actually become that model, and it doesn't mean you can ignore the rest of the rule blurb.

It's actually real simple - you have a unit (MekGun+5GrotKrew) that is represented in multiple locations on the battlefield.

The unit may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations - consequently, the enemy may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations as well.

When the unit runs out of wounds, all six locations are pulled from the battlefield at once.

If any of the locations move, the combined total movement of the locations may not exceed their movement stat.
If one of the locations is entirely within cover, all locations are counted as being in cover.
If any of the locations are in close combat, they're all in close combat.

Since they're all a single model, there is no squad coherency that needs to be worried about. Each model counts as being in range of itself.

fe40k wrote:
It's actually real simple - you have a unit (MekGun+5GrotKrew) that is represented in multiple locations on the battlefield.

The unit may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations - consequently, the enemy may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations as well.

When the unit runs out of wounds, all six locations are pulled from the battlefield at once.

If any of the locations move, the combined total movement of the locations may not exceed their movement stat.

If any of the locations are in close combat, they're all in close combat.

Because they are all the same "Model" it means that the Grot's ability of "Cannot be targeted or attacked" applies to everything in the squad.

It never says they're a single model. They're still 6 models. They just count as a single model for rules purposes. However, the Grot Krew rule specifically outlines what is the Gun and what is the Krew. Even if they count as a single model, they're still considered to be separate entities with their own restrictions.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

fe40k wrote:
It's actually real simple - you have a unit (MekGun+5GrotKrew) that is represented in multiple locations on the battlefield.

The unit may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations - consequently, the enemy may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations as well.

When the unit runs out of wounds, all six locations are pulled from the battlefield at once.

If any of the locations move, the combined total movement of the locations may not exceed their movement stat.

If any of the locations are in close combat, they're all in close combat.

Because they are all the same "Model" it means that the Grot's ability of "Cannot be targeted or attacked" applies to everything in the squad.

"Cannot be targeted or attacked SEPARATELY"; I don't have the codex, so I'm going off the initial wording in the thread.
You're not attacking each model separately, you're attacking them as a singular unit - so, sadly, grotkrew rules don't apply here; as far as I can tell based on the wording.

There is no data-sheet entry that suggests the GrotKrew miniatures are anything except a singular MekGun.

1MekGun+5GrotKrew ALWAYS equal ONE model; regardless of how they're represented or placed on the table.


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 flandarz wrote:
It never says they're a single model. They're still 6 models. They just count as a single model for rules purposes. However, the Grot Krew rule specifically outlines what is the Gun and what is the Krew. Even if they count as a single model, they're still considered to be separate entities with their own restrictions.

They are not 6 models.

They are, for any purpose of the game, 1 model - regardless of how it's displayed on the battlefield.

Even if you say "they're just one model", the fact remains that the rule itself delineates what is a Grot Krew and what is a Mek Gun, and what you can do in respects to each. If you don't read past "treated as a single model" and ignore the rest of the rule, don't be shocked when your opponent packs up their miniatures and gives you the finger.

fe40k wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

fe40k wrote:
It's actually real simple - you have a unit (MekGun+5GrotKrew) that is represented in multiple locations on the battlefield.

The unit may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations - consequently, the enemy may draw LOS and measure distance, to and from, any of those six locations as well.

When the unit runs out of wounds, all six locations are pulled from the battlefield at once.

If any of the locations move, the combined total movement of the locations may not exceed their movement stat.

If any of the locations are in close combat, they're all in close combat.

Because they are all the same "Model" it means that the Grot's ability of "Cannot be targeted or attacked" applies to everything in the squad.

"Cannot be targeted or attacked SEPARATELY"; I don't have the codex, so I'm going off the initial wording in the thread.
You're not attacking each model separately, you're attacking them as a singular unit - so, sadly, grotkrew rules don't apply here; as far as I can tell based on the wording.

There is no data-sheet entry that suggests the GrotKrew miniatures are anything except a singular MekGun.

1MekGun+5GrotKrew ALWAYS equal ONE model; regardless of how they're represented or placed on the table.

That interpretation makes sense; and I agree with you.

However:
"Grots" can still be used to extend LOS.
"Grots" can be daisy chained for buffs.
A Mek can still repair a "Grot"
"Grots" can still be deployed to different locations across the map, using their low profile to make the "unit" hard to hit.
A single "Grot" in cover means the unit is obscured, granting the "unit" +1 cover save.

Any other rule weirdness?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
"Grots" can still be deployed to different locations across the map, using their low profile to make the "unit" hard to hit.

No. From page 105 of Codex Orks:

... all of its Mek Gunz must be placed within 6" of at least one other Mek Gun, and with each grot krew within 1" of their Mek Gun.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
"Grots" can still be deployed to different locations across the map, using their low profile to make the "unit" hard to hit.

No. From page 105 of Codex Orks:

... all of its Mek Gunz must be placed within 6" of at least one other Mek Gun, and with each grot krew within 1" of their Mek Gun.

There's only one model in that squad, and that is the Mek Gun.

"Some units - usually Characters - have abilities that affect certain models within given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect."

See above.

Doesn't matter. You can't spread the components of that 'one model' across the board and break the rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Doesn't matter. You can't spread the components of that 'one model' across the board and break the rules.

From the Grot Krew ability

Each Mek gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes,

I don't believe as it stands there's any rules for "one model" with "many parts".

Could you explain in RAW rule terms how the "Grot Krew" is different from the "Mek Gun"?

Grot Krew
Each Mek gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes, the krew must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the Mek Gun, not the Krew.

Literally everything in here aside from "treated as a single model". "Cannot be targeted or attacked seperately." "Must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun." "The range and visibility of all attacks made by the Mek Gun are measured from the Mek Gun, not the Krew."

The rule itself delineates what is the Krew and what is the Gun. As I said above, if you ignore all of that and just focus on "treated as a single model", you're gonna find yourself bereft of people who are going to be willing to play with you, because no one likes a rules cherry-picker.

The way it's read, though they count as a single model, a Grot Krew is not the Mek Gun they man. In the same way that a Choppa is not a Boy

Each Mek gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes,

That's the important part that allows this gak, as they now qualify as both Mek Gun and Grot Krew for their own rule.

fyi I would never play it RAW, RAI it is very obvious what it is intended to do.

The fact this has devolved into an argument at all is proof that even RAW is ambiguous as to what it means. That one line directly contradicts everything that comes after it, even though it's in the same sentence. If it didn't specifically call out a Grot Krew and a Mek Gun being different things, and just ended at "treated as one model for all rules purposes" I'd agree with you, even if the RAI was obviously not meant that way. But we got to look at the rule as a whole, and as a whole rule, it has restrictions on how your Grots must be placed in relation to their Gun and how line of sight and distance is measured.

You cannot use one part of a rule to invalid the rest if of the same rule. You must interpret a rule in a way that allows all part of the rule to be applied.

This argument relies on using one part of the rule to then ignore the rest of the rule. That is simply not RAW.

With alextroy here. The rule clearly states how the gunners are supposed to be handled, you must follow those rules without exception.

alextroy wrote:You cannot use one part of a rule to invalid the rest if of the same rule. You must interpret a rule in a way that allows all part of the rule to be applied.

This argument relies on using one part of the rule to then ignore the rest of the rule. That is simply not RAW.

Jidmah wrote:With alextroy here. The rule clearly states how the gunners are supposed to be handled, you must follow those rules without exception.

Yeah, I agree with these two. Even disregarding all of this, no opponent or judge will accept the arguments to allow you to shoot from a grot and even if they did the advantage is absurdly minor in practice.

 alextroy wrote:
You cannot use one part of a rule to invalid the rest if of the same rule. You must interpret a rule in a way that allows all part of the rule to be applied.

This argument relies on using one part of the rule to then ignore the rest of the rule. That is simply not RAW.

I am inclined to agree here. A permissive ruleset relies on AND gates, not OR gates.

If you have a rule saying "You can shoot this turn" and a rule saying "You cannot shoot this turn", the only legal actions are ones that satisfy BOTH rules, thus you may not shoot.

I think part of the issue is that the OP is interpreting the phrase "counts as one medel" to mean "Counts as a mek gun".

Nowhere does it say that this single model is a mek gun, and as such it doesn't state that the grot krew becomes a mek gun. If the entry is a "Mek Gun & Crew" then that's the single model, not a Mek Gun".

As such, with this wording the grot would only be within 1" of a "Mek gun & crew" and not a "Mek Gun", and so would not be able to be placed there.

It's really very obvious how you're supposed to play this.

 some bloke wrote:
I think part of the issue is that the OP is interpreting the phrase "counts as one medel" to mean "Counts as a mek gun".

Nowhere does it say that this single model is a mek gun, and as such it doesn't state that the grot krew becomes a mek gun. If the entry is a "Mek Gun & Crew" then that's the single model, not a Mek Gun".

As such, with this wording the grot would only be within 1" of a "Mek gun & crew" and not a "Mek Gun", and so would not be able to be placed there.

It's really very obvious how you're supposed to play this.

This would appear to be the answer.

Moving on.