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HI all, used my librarian in a game at the weekend and realised I seem to go through the same process every time I use one. I get to the point of power selection and pause realising there aren't really any powers to choose from that will change the game in a meaningful way.
I take a libby for his decent deny ability and for tossing out a smite or two at opportune moment but when I see the powers various other psykers can put out the Librarius discipline seems very lackluster.
Am I wrong? What killer combos and useful tricks have I missed?

As a reminder, the powers:

Veil of time - WC6: Re-roll charges and fight first on a unit. - The re-roll is ok I suppose but marines aren't exactly excelling in combat so I don't take many units that want to assault. Fighting first would be alot more useful if it went before chargers but it doesn't making it pretty poor.

Might of heroes - WC6: Give a model +1 S,T,A - I usually end up with this one, its ok on a character built for combat or on a vehicle to push it up to T8/9 but seems really bad when compared to other attack boosting or protection powers.

Psychic Scourge - WC6: Targetable smite that requires a LD roll off to work - Targetable is sometimes usesful but generally this power is just worse than smite as you need to win a roll off, it can't do D6 damage and is higher WC.

Fury of the Ancients - WC7; Draw a 3D6" line, each enemy unit touched take a MW - I've never taken this, the line seems too random and short to ever really cover many units and a single MW to each doesn't impress me much.

Psychic Fortress - WC5: Choose a unit to auto pass morale and it gains a 4+ save against psychic MWs - The morale is largely irrelevant for marines, the psychic protection can be used in the early game to throw a unit forward and soak up mortals against psychic heavy armies but as they get to move before casting its pretty easy to ignore.

Null Zone - WC8: Enemy units within 6" can't take invulnerable saves and halve the results of their psychic tests - This is a very powerful if situational power, its got a very high WC (highest in game?) and very short range making it quite unreliable but take it on a jump libby and get it close to a powerful enemy unit that relies on invulnerables and watch them crumble. The psychic modifier is even more situational as they can just move away to cast.


That's my thoughts let me know what I'm missing. My attitude towards them may just be due to the general weakness of the marine codex atm, buff powers are less attractive when you don't have good things to buff but out of a list of 6 powers only one comes across as powerful with the ability to really change a game and that is hard to cast and situational in its use.

 WisdomLS wrote:
Might of heroes - WC6: Give a model +1 S,T,A - I usually end up with this one, its ok on a character built for combat or on a vehicle to push it up to T8/9 but seems really bad when compared to other attack boosting or protection powers.

Seems pretty standard, perhaps hampered by a lack of good targets. Diabolic strength for instance is +2 S and +1 A... but much more impactful with a daemon prince to use it on.
Boosted dreads are an option though, and consider using it on targets you want to discourage your opponent from shooting for a turn (i.e. a toughness 9 landraider)

 WisdomLS wrote:
Null Zone - WC8: Enemy units within 6" can't take invulnerable saves and halve the results of their psychic tests - This is a very powerful if situational power, its got a very high WC (highest in game?)

Same WC as death hex which is practically an auto-pick. Hex is a longer ranged attack and generally easier to use, though it lacks the psychic shutdown of null zone - halving the psychic test might as well read 'opponent may not use psychic powers within 6"'.
There are a few WC9s out there for what it's worth.


The rest are fairly generic and unremarkable. Scourge is your standard mind war-style character sniper, veil was for increasing your deepstrike charge odds but can help with slow moving units, fortress like might would benefit from having something worth casting it on other than a smite screen, and fury is too circumstantial.

What kind of non-marine psychic powers were you comparing them to?

It's a so-so set. A few decent powers, but no truly great ones. The best psychic lists only really differ in that they have one standout awesome power on them, and Librarius doesn't really have that.

I play against and with various other psychic armies, in comparison:

Eldar: Obviously better and they should be but they are not even in the same ball park.

Space Wolves: Better Buff, better defence and better smite like powers.

Blood Angel: These aren't necessarily better but certainly have better synergy with the way the army works.

Dark Angels: Not all great but a couple of real standouts.

Tyranids/Genecult: I'm not an expert but they seem to have some really powerful powers.

Astra militarum: The +1 save and -1 to be hit powers are super good, these guys really shouldn't be better than a libby.

Chaos of various flavours: To many powers to really analyse here but the basic ones are certainly better with deathhex being a much better null zone (the range is key) and warptime being bonkers.

Ork: Haven't played against them yet but weird boys seem to be in most of the lists which is a good indicator.

Grey Knights: A bit lackluster for such a psychic army.

Do you disagree with these assessments? let me know what you think, I play some of these but have only played against most, perhaps using them gives you a different perspective on their power. If you play against marines which of their powers makes your buttocks clench in fear?

 WisdomLS wrote:
Ork: Haven't played against them yet but weird boys seem to be in most of the lists which is a good indicator.

Mind you partially that's due to them being our cheapest HQ and since we need 4-6 HQ's....Other options are warbosses that became less essential in codex(especially if index is banned for you), trike HQ(120 pts, not that spammable) and bik megs(again if index is banned leaves you ~110 pts mega armour w/kff one or SAG one for 84 pts). They don't need to be THAT great powers to be fielded on the sheer fact they cover 50-75% of your HQ requirements to give you that 2 battallions minimum!

Albeit da jump, fist of gork and warpath are all useful. Da jump basically mandatory, other 2 bit more situational.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Astra militarum: The +1 save and -1 to be hit powers are super good, these guys really shouldn't be better than a libby.

To be fair the AM Primaris Psyker only gets 1 cast, Librarians get 2. So I'd say Librarians are clearly the better Psyker even if their list is questionable.

Overall the Guard list is more chaff than wheat, but you are right that those two powers are very good. Especially as you can stack both of them onto a Shadowsword!

All psychic powers this ed seem bad to me, they chose to replicate a type of phy phase that was tried before and was terrible, the powers seem bland and samey.

Might of heroes is the only gold-standard power libbies get. It really is a great power, that's very flexible:

1) Main use is buff your T8 monster: Leviathans, Ironclads, Repulsors, Spartans all love this power. Added bonus if the unit is good in CC, but you're really unlocking OC-plasma wounding on 5s and Lascannons wounding on 4s.

2) The beast is dead. Now throw MoH on your slam captain and watch him go to town!

3) Oh dear, everyone's dead. Ah well, libby power himself up and charges in to crack some heads.

Every other power is problematic, with Null Zone obviously in 2nd place and Fortress in 3rd...

And yeah, the AM discipline is streets ahead. What gets my goat is Psychic Maelstrom, which is the best damage-dealing psychic power in the game. It's horrible, especially when you have a CP to burn for a reroll (and what guard army doesnt?)

Librarius discipline is probably the worst in the game, but i still always take one for MoH, assuming I'm running a T8 unit.

They are poor overall, but as has been said one libby for MoH and Null Zone is definitely worthwhile. Null zone is one of those powers that can seriously wreck your day depending on matchup.

"Alright my knight's got a 3++....I mean...hm....so those are Lascannons you say?"

the_scotsman wrote:
They are poor overall, but as has been said one libby for MoH and Null Zone is definitely worthwhile. Null zone is one of those powers that can seriously wreck your day depending on matchup.

"Alright my knight's got a 3++....I mean...hm....so those are Lascannons you say?"

Yep there IS reason why dark angel+space wolf+codex librarian supreme detachment is fairly popular.

Nullzone is enemy MODELS (not units like Death Hex), it's actually worse than it seems

I've never seen any but Veil of Time and Might of Hero's really be a better choice than Smite.

Scourge might be interesting if your a Ultramarine. Start LD 9, Ultramarine makes you LD 10, then be within the range of the Banner and you LD 11. Seems like a good chance of seeing that one proc.

On paper Null Zone looks ok, but in practice it's pretty difficult to use because of the extremely limited range.

The massive advantage Death Hex has is that it's range allows you to use it from deep strike. That difference is huge.

Might of heroes is the only good power. +1 attack for Gman is nice - though the str and toughness are mostly wasted.

What the marines need is a defensive buff from their psykers. Like a 5++ aura or +1 armor or -1 to hit. You know...powers that don't suck. You know. Powers that trash IG psykers get.

As a Dark Eldar player, who's second army is IG, I think the Librarian's powers are OK.

As others have said, MoH and Nullzone are my go-to when playing a Librarian (who is always takes the Index Bike, which may skew my results). You definitely need to build a list around the Libby, or else he is a waste.

Compared to IG, the Libby is much stronger, but needs to be built around. With the IG psykers (Primaris and Astropath), you can just add them in as an afterthought, and they will work. I genrally add two Primaris with the -1 to hit and +1 save powers, plus a Astropath with one of the Smite-lite powers. They dont do MUCH to the list, but always helps.

In comparison, the Libby on a Bike is part of my Space Marine Bike Star (smash captain on a bike, libby, bike squad). The Bikestar moves up a flank, pops MoH and Nullzone/smite, then unloads with plasma. Works OK.

In this configuration, Nullzone is amazing. The enemy is forced to play around the Libby, and if you are good (which I am not) you can dictate the battle.

Please note that I am talking about 1000pt battles, have not played Space Marines at larger points in 8th yet.

They're bad. I wanted to build a second Librarian, but then I realised that I would actually never use one.

They are bad for the cost of the Librarian. For 100 points you don't get much.

Null zone is for me the best, but hard to get with 8.

MOH is good for increasing the T of a Dread. It increases the chances of surviving for example fusions.

Fisheyes wrote:


Compared to IG, the Libby is much stronger, but needs to be built around. With the IG psykers (Primaris and Astropath), you can just add them in as an afterthought, and they will work. I genrally add two Primaris with the -1 to hit and +1 save powers, plus a Astropath with one of the Smite-lite powers. They dont do MUCH to the list, but always helps.

The Libby is not much stronger, he's much more expensive and has less useful powers. A pair of psykers can turn a baneblade into a serious defensive proposition. They have the best damage spell in the game (maelstrom). They cost buttons. Primaris psykers are also the same as libbies in CC (1S less, that's it). ... The reason you can add them in as an afterthought is because their powers improve every list, and they're so cheap you could bring 3 for the price of a razorback... the reason you have to build around a libby isn't that he's more powerful, but that his powers are more situational, and so paying more for them has to made worth it, or you're hobbling your list.

47 pt smitebots can't be beat, imo.

Most loyalist marines have trash tier psykers. Vanilla are the worst offenders. When one of your two “good” spells is WC8 and you have no special rules to make that not a crapshoot you’re in for a bad time.

 Stux wrote:
On paper Null Zone looks ok, but in practice it's pretty difficult to use because of the extremely limited range.

The massive advantage Death Hex has is that it's range allows you to use it from deep strike. That difference is huge.

Don't space marine bikes advance 20"?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Stux wrote:
On paper Null Zone looks ok, but in practice it's pretty difficult to use because of the extremely limited range.

The massive advantage Death Hex has is that it's range allows you to use it from deep strike. That difference is huge.

Don't space marine bikes advance 20"?

It's better on a bike for sure, but you still need to get around screens, which is much less of a problem with Death Hex.

Bremon wrote:
When one of your two “good” spells is WC8 and you have no special rules to make that not a crapshoot you’re in for a bad time.

They have the same stratagem as the thousand sons for boosting their psychic roll.

The difference is opportunity cost - having three TS psykers somewhere within 18" of something you want to blast is pretty much a given. Having three librarians within 6" of something you want to blast is a little less likely.

It's one of the weaker disciplines, perhaps the weakest. The killer combo is to take other Imperium psykers instead, like Rune Priests. Or just don't take any.

As a 1kson player I can say we have a few duds that I would trade for any of those powers. While the power you listed may not be godlike, they are all serviceable and most are actually quite good. Also, wc9 is the highest, which we have two spells at that level.

Table wrote:
As a 1kson player I can say we have a few duds that I would trade for any of those powers. While the power you listed may not be godlike, they are all serviceable and most are actually quite good. Also, wc9 is the highest, which we have two spells at that level.

Everyone has duds on their powers list - SM are the only ones without a single Teir 1 power. Null zone has the potential to be one but with the most asinine cost and range requirements - it is effectively useless in most situations.

Deatch hex however - is a Tier 1+ spell
Warptime - another Tier 1
Glamore of Tzeentch is Tier 1
Infernal Gateway is Tier 1
Prescience is Tier 1

Like seriously - stop BSing. The only good power is MOH and it's a T2 spell at best. The rest of the powers are T3 to T-4 on a scale of 1-4.

I play Sons too. Of course we'd trade in a power from our trash tier, from our 18 powers, for MoH. What does that prove? The difference is night and day, Sons have it soooo good.

I want them to bring back the generic power charts again. It was nice that you could pull book powers if you got a crappy discipline. Just don't have the one or two problem powers come back.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Might of heroes is the only good power. +1 attack for Gman is nice - though the str and toughness are mostly wasted.

What the marines need is a defensive buff from their psykers. Like a 5++ aura or +1 armor or -1 to hit. You know...powers that don't suck. You know. Powers that trash IG psykers get.

The str and toughness don't suck actually, strength 9 with the Emperors Sword means he is gonna to wound the IK on 3s while keeping the potential MW induced. While T7 makes him better against lots of Str 6/7 attacks, like assault cannon / autocannon, power maul, most of the Tyranids Scything Talon and MRC, etc.

I once use Tigirius casting this power on a Repulsor, as well as poping auto launcher and master of prescience on it. Saved it from the firepower from the OP Eldar army!!!

I find the CSM basic powers to cover almost all the bases. Almost none of them are awful, so even when you take multiple psykers you never feel penalized giving out some of the powers you don't normally take.

Eldar powers are good, but they actually need to be. Eldar, generally speaking don't get access to auras from characters. They have the re-roll 1's from the Autarch and morale immunity from the Avatar, but generally no basic auras you find in the Guard or Marine books. So they really heavily rely on the Warlock branch of spells.

I play an opponent who has Dark Angels and has access to the following auras:

-Invuln saves
-Re-roll 1's to hit
-Re-roll 1's to wound
-Re-roll failed attacks in close combat
-Use character's morale etc.
-Roll to shoot when slain
etc.

Generally speaking Eldar don't get it. I'd love to have access to something like a Priest that the Guard get who adds +1 attack to units around him --- would love to use something like that to make Aspect Warriors better etc. But, outside of the Phoenix Lords (which are 'okay') we don't have access to them. The lack of auras and stuff like orders, etc. makes the Eldar rely on all the buffs they can manage via psykers.