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With the current way that the orders system works, Guardsmen end up looking more like superhuman mega-freaks in game than the supposed "superhumans" depicted in the other factions.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to move twice for free in the movement phase: Lightning-fast eldar and harlequins specialized in close combat, swarms of genestealers commanded by the most notorious tyranid command monster in the whole galaxy, an angel imbued with the emperor's godlike power, and guardsmen. Recently GW made it so the angel couldn't do that anymore because it felt unfair.

There are a tiny handful of units that get to fight twice for free in the fight phase: Crazy bezerk sisters of battle strapped to death walkers, khorne bezerkers dedicated to the god of war and skulls, and guardsmen.

There are a small number of units that can double their shots at will in the shooting phase: Massive Tau mechas bristling with missiles and cannons who fire pneumatic support struts into the ground and brace themselves before unleashing hellfire, space marines in specialized body-encapsulating suits of iron man armor who stand still and unload into oncoming enemy swarms, highly advanced crystal-powered eldar grav tanks, and regular guard tanks and guardsmen.

I understand what they were going for with the orders system, but the current incarnation of the mechanic ends up making other armies and specialist units who make just one of the at-will commands their specific "thing" feel inadequate. In my last game playing my Guard against some Eldar, I was able to effortlessly outpace the fething Eldar in a last-turn objective grab, sending upwards of 40 guard bodies flying across the board 20+" to flood an objective with obsec bodies.

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Asmodios wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

but to your question, when the superhumans are only 16.6666% better than the humans, and the humans can more than make up that difference in quantity .. then superman is going to stay home feeling very inferior

I mean from a lore standpoint (depending on the regiment/general) guardsmen are often used as meat shields to protect valuable assets like tanks.

Also isn't this just another "space marine power armor needs a buff" thread? I don't think anyone is arguing that the SM codex (and their counterparts) don't need a rules update. But also holding game mechanics to fluff levels is just dumb. I mean for example you would have to field thousands of guardsmen to ever equal the fluff rules of marine army we see on the tabletop now

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

 Trickstick wrote:
No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

Couple things here.

1) I can have three for 90 points, the cost of almost every other faction's basic HQ.

2) They are still characters, hiding behind the cheapest screen horde in the game.

3) even when you get to them they have 5++ and W4.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:Caught myself wondering similar this morning ...

when did it change from guardsmen following tanks under heavy fire to infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank.

It's pretty much always been the infantry standing in a semi circle to protect the tank, except for 5E where everything rode in its own tank. Certainly you never hid behind the tanks in 6E/7E when anything making base contact with a tank basically auto-killed it

the_scotsman wrote:
It's less about the "quality vs quantity" aspect and more about "because of orders, guardsmen feel stronger in quality than the specialist units other armies have."

Guard have a plethora of free buffs on 30-50 point characters that would make other armies blush coming off of the auras of 200+ point characters or 2CP stratagems.

Having a squad of guardsmen fight twice next to an Officer (who does nothin but give orders) has a wee bit different effect compared with other armies where that 200pt HQ is a tank of a CC monster and the aura affected troops are individually many times more capable, and the Aura can enhance a larger number of units than any individual IG officer can. Now, there are cost issues for some things that can certainly be addressed, but the impact of these abilities between the different contexts is enormous. Also, Orders have been a thing for almost a decade and 4 editions now, largely doing the same things they do now.

Yes, "Largely" except in this context means "doing none of the things anyone is complaining about."

Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl." First Rank Second Rank didn't double your firepower, and in the olden days you had to stay still if you wanted to double tap (you know, like you would if you're firing in ranks . "Get Back in the Fight" was a morale thing, not a "Leave melee and shoot again at full effect like you've got a jet pack strapped to your back" thing.

Every order has the same NAME it used to have, but the effects have been amped to such goofy levels that you've now got guardsmen doing things that in other factions you have to be a fast close combat specialist, or a stationary shooting specialist, or using a 3CP stratagem to do.

Also, "every other faction can do that with auras" is a silly argument because A) show me a faction that has a fight twice, double your firepower, or move twice aura please, and B) GUARD GETS THE AURAS EVERYONE ELSE GETS ANYWAY. They have a morale aura. They have reroll to hit auras. They have +1 attack auras. They also have psychic powers, one of the better lists in the game. And all these aura giving/order giving/psychic power casting buff characters are half to a third the cost that other factions pay for these characters.

ccs wrote:
Guard infantry squads are awesome (and always have been) because whatever the edition, for the pts, you can get a helluva lot more shots at the enemy. End of the day it's about making your opponent roll as many saves as possible, as often as possible.
Guard are also awesome because they're cheap enough that you can also afford to bring a good selection of heavier options in addition to that hoard of infantry.

They really haven't been. I'm sorry, it is definitely a pet peeve of mine when people decide "thing that's strong now has ALWAYS BEEN TOO STRONG" because in many cases (like this case) it really isn't. Guard in previous editions were flimsier (due to basic weapons having AP5 and the old wounding system making S5 wound them on 2s), less offensively powerful (fewer shots from FRFSRF in 7th and 6th and in 5th you had to not move to even double tap) and costed more.

You get this a lot about Dark Eldar as well, who have averaged about as well as Orks throughout the editions. One tiny flare of high-tieredness in 5th and that's...about it until now.

 Trickstick wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
No other faction has a unit as weak as a commander giving out those buffs. Just murder them and be done with it.

Couple things here.

1) I can have three for 90 points, the cost of almost every other faction's basic HQ.

2) They are still characters, hiding behind the cheapest screen horde in the game.

3) even when you get to them they have 5++ and W4.

All true. You could use snipers but I know they are not the best units. How does that new formation stack up?

the_scotsman wrote:
Move Move Move used to be "roll 3d6 pick the highest when you run(advance), move an extra inch or two". Now it's "Advance AGAIN multiplying your move by two. Oh, if you're the right army tactic, you can still shoot after rofl rofl rofl."

You can't shoot after Move Move Move, it replaces shooting.

Which new formation? The space marine one that gives you the special Mordian order for 3CP?

Also - this is true, I thought it was just a second advance which would prevent shooting for non-tallarn. So I suppose the fastest Guard can move is 6"+D6"+3" embark+12"+D6"+3" disembark for 1cp (new Emperor's Blade Stratagem)

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Nah, originally it was a thread about why it is that Guard orders allow basic human mooks to do for free what almost every other faction has to pass a test, spend CP, or have a super specialized unit ala Khorne Bezerkers to be able to do.

Fight Twice, Move Twice, Fall Back and Shoot, and reroll all hits should not be thrown around like candy.

Fight Twice("Fix Bayonets!") requires you to be in 1" range to fight and be in range of an Officer to receive an Order.
Move Twice("Move! Move! Move!") is you foregoing Shooting and foregoing the ability to Charge, with the requirement of it being an "Advance" move instead of just moving as normal.
Fall Back and Shoot isn't. The Order("Get Back In the Fight!") is that you can shoot this phase even if they Fell Back--so the unit has to Fall Back during their Movement, they don't get to remain stuck in and then Fall Back+Shoot in one action.
"Reroll All Hits" isn't. The Order("Take Aim!") is to reroll hit rolls of 1. Cadians get a native trait that allows for them to reroll hit rolls of 1s, with "Take Aim!" instead getting the ability to reroll all hits if the unit remained stationary during its Movement


Also, as usual, it's worth mentioning that no one unit can ever do all of those things at once. If you receive an Order, that's it--you're done. No more Orders on that unit unless the Officer in question has Laurels of Command Relic and rolls a 4+. That Order is also 'consumed' effectively, as Officers have a set number of Orders.

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

That said, some of the things you're highlighting here as limits are...questionable. You have to be in close combat in order to fight twice. ooookay. You can't...remain stuck in combat, then fall back and still shoot? What other unit does that? Every unit that can fall back and shoot has to do it in that order and doesn't get to keep the enemy stuck. Even if you could The only units that can have their cake and eat it too are units that can continue firing while stuck in combat, like Space Wolves with a stratagem, and....well....guardsmen, with Vostroyan or Death Korps orders.

 Kcalehc wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Also - this is true, I thought it was just a second advance which would prevent shooting for non-tallarn. So I suppose the fastest Guard can move is 6"+D6"+3" embark+12"+D6"+3" disembark for 1cp (new Emperor's Blade Stratagem)

You cannot both Embark and Disembark in the same turn. Transports section of main rules.

"can" trumps "can't." If I have a stratagem that says "unit immediately moves as if it was the movement phase" that breaks the usual BRB restriction of only getting to move once.
You can tell that "Rapid Redeploy" does allow you to disembark even if you embarked, because the GSC version of the same stratagem (that costs the same, but has the additional restriction of only being able to get out 9" away and causes mortal wounds) has an additional restriction that says "you can't do it if you embarked that movement phase."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I have never claimed that orders are unlimited, just that they allow basic guardsmen to do things that other armies spend CPs on or only have on their most specialized units. I can't count the number of times I've looked at a Stratagem or other ability and gone "oh, it's like that thing I can do with my Guard, but with fewer limits and not CP free/automatic."

And did you ever think that's because if one goes and look at the "most specialized units" in Guard, they don't get access to these Orders?

That said, some of the things you're highlighting here as limits are...questionable. You have to be in close combat in order to fight twice. ooookay.

No, you have to be in 1" of an enemy unit in order to get to be issued the Order. You then get to fight during your Shooting Phase, and then you have a normal Combat phase afterwards.

You can't...remain stuck in combat, then fall back and still shoot? What other unit does that?
Every unit that can fall back and shoot has to do it in that order and doesn't get to keep the enemy stuck. Even if you could The only units that can have their cake and eat it too are units that can continue firing while stuck in combat, like Space Wolves with a stratagem, and....well....guardsmen, with Vostroyan or Death Korps orders.

Your portrayal of the Order made it read to me as though the unit would get to tarpit and then retreat+shoot in one action. I just wanted to make sure people are aware of the way things work.


Just like I'm sure you know that, as mentioned, "Take Aim!" doesn't do what you claimed it did.

"Take Aim" does do what I claimed it does, you just have to be a particular subfaction to get it and not move - which basically means that the order is for HWTs who don't want to be moving anyway, because FRFSRF is always better for regular guard squads.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Are Guardsmen in general considered powerful? Or could you run some infantry and Leman Russes (without Catachan) and have fun in some home games without steamrolling friends?

There is definitely space for casual guard lists. I play a Meta that is supremely casual for the most part and we do have guard players who just play what they've collected through the years.

Amazingly I've never encountered the magical unicorn everyone always brings up who is a player who collects an army for aesthetics then magically ends up with a tournament competitive army. I've had players who claimed to be that, who just happened to ebay their collection every half edition for an army that's winning tournaments they just happen to love the fluff of, but never seen it occur honestly.

There's a wide gulf between 150 unupgraded guardsmen standing between you and a wall of ignores LOS arty using Catachan or Cadian tactics and a regular collection of random stuff with upgrades, oddball units and load outs that aren't currently optimal.

Ice_can wrote:
Funny thing is guardsmen just need someone to yell at them to outrun a plane.

Catachans are so jucied even Justin Gatlin is impressed

Catachan jungle tanks are so bad ass they kill more enemies than famed dedicated tank units.

Lasguns are sound operated but only respond to officers in case the milita get above themselfs.

Cadians spent so long standing guard they can't move and do things at the same time.

^This is the reason I created the thread. Not the overall effectiveness of guard in tournaments, the over-the-top way their orders mechanic gets transferred to the game that makes them feel crazy strong, fast, accurate, etc when compared to other stuff in the game.

It's like my pet peeve that Eldar vehicles are faster than Dark Eldar vehicles, when DE vehicles are literally using the same engines but they've stripped off all the armor and safety features and built the whole thing just to maximise speed.

Guardsmen can move faster not just than the basic troops from the "Fast" factions like Dark Eldar and Harlequins, but literally faster than units that can FLY, using the Move Move Move order.

The problem is, with orders being automatic (unlike Psychic powers and Acts of Faith, it's not harder to get off better orders) and unlimited in the sense that you can use them repeatedly (unlike Canticles of the Omnissiah, where one is clearly better than the other but you can only use the best one once) they must be designed such that there's a compelling reason to use EVERY order over every other order.

The "run faster, don't shoot" order has to be sufficiently powerful to give you a reason to use it over the "shoot better" order, so you get guardsmen running faster than jetbikes. The "Fight in close combat" order has to compete with the "run away from close combat, turn around, and shoot at full effectiveness" order, so you get Khorne Beguardzmerkers.

If I were going to fix it, I'd make every order have its own restrictions, and I'd add power to an order if it ends up too weak.

"Take Aim!" - unit must not have moved in the movement phase
"Bring it down!" - unit must fire all its guns at the same target
"First rank, fire! Second rank, Fire!" - to be issued this order, every model in the unit must be touching the base of at least one other model in the unit, and the unit must contain a Sergeant to direct the firing.
"Move, Move, Move!" - Same as current order, however I would remove the "instead of shooting' restriction allowing Tallarn and Assault weapons to still work, and make it only +D6" extra move instead of 6+D6"
"Get Back in the Fight!" - officer must shoot a member of the squad
"Fix Bayonets!" - Rather than the current pile in and fight, I'd have this be "the unit immediately charges, if they succeed, they fight. In the ensuing Fight phase, they do not count as having charged".

 Mmmpi wrote:
While I did forget about the first three characters, Scion orders don't apply to normal guardsmen.

if you wnt to get super duper technical there is no hard limit on orders, because you could 4+s on the laurels of command forever.

 Mmmpi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
While I did forget about the first three characters, Scion orders don't apply to normal guardsmen.

if you wnt to get super duper technical there is no hard limit on orders, because you could 4+s on the laurels of command forever.

Or you could never roll the 4+ and get nothing for it.

That's not usually how "hard limits" work.

I tell a lie though - since you can only order one unit once, and some of the orders are conflicting, you can only issue 4 max on each unit you've laurels'd.

So, the actual hardmax orders would be:

Comcom with master of command and laurels with Kell: 16
Other two comcoms: 4
Platcoms: 3
Creed: 3
tank commanders: 3
Pask: 2
temp primes: 3

So, 26 infantry orders, 5 tank orders and 3 tempestus orders, theoretical maximum. Worth considering if you're playing a 9000 or so point game and you have the rule of 3 active.

 Trickstick wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
temp primes: 3

*Cough Command Rods and Auto-Reliquary = 7 Cough*

Also stratagem for +1.

Mea culpa on the reliquary and command rods, but remember that +1 is actually +4 because you put it on your guy with the laurels who always rolls 3 4+s every time he issues an order.

that puts us at 34.

Never talk about hard limits on a forum full of rules lawyering pedants

 Trickstick wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Never talk about hard limits on a forum full of rules lawyering pedants

I'm not sure I understand your 4 order limit. Why can't I order a unit to Take Aim, roll 4+ then order frfsrf, roll 4+ then order bring it down, and do this for the 6 normal orders +1 regimental order (for example, the catachan one). You could even do 7+1 if you are within 1" of an enemy, as fix bayonets is the only order with any restriction.

Edit: Was looking at FAQ in case I missed something, then saw that I had forgot about Superior Tactical Training. That would be even more orders.

Well, I guess you could amp up their shooting to ridiculous levels then say "screw it, MOVE MOVE MOVE" and you'd have 4 shots rerolling 1s to wound and 1s to hit that you wouldn't get to use because you advanced so that'd be 5 per on ZE UBERCOMMANDERMANDER.

the others are limited because you can't advance when you fell back (so you can't Get Back In the Fight), you can't fight if you are moving around/shooting (so you can't Fix Bayonets) and I wasn't counting move move move because as I said that'd make you not able to shoot at all.

I was going for FRFSRF, Take Aim, Forwards for the Emperor, and Bring it Down as the 4. Alternatively swapping Forwards for Get Back In.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Mmmpi 768621 10283987 75809f10970bbb4dc24a2252a89f9a8a wrote:

I didn't see any mono-factions when I looked up lists. They were all soup. Pretty much my deffinition of an IG list is one where the major components of the list are IG. I've already said that those had a brigade, and all but one of those had six squads of IG IS's. No more than that. Which is the minimum requirement for a brigade. None of those lists took a 2nd guard battalion. Every list where another imperial army was the major faction, they took at best a battalion, usually the L32, sometimes a few mortar squads.

Most of the lists where they're taken it's either to make the requirements for a brigade, and even then, they only got upgrades a fraction of the time. At least a third of the lists left half their IS's with just las guns. The only thing else was the L32, usually just with a mortar team.
So, no. No one is spamming imperial guard infantry squads. (IGIS). They either take a battery, or the bare minimum for a brigade.

You didn't see any mono lists at all? Then your data is incomplete.

I'm not sure of the point in telling me that 'lists that didn't take primary IG didn't have a brigade of IG'. That would be obvious and expected. Where lists are primary IG are where we see the double battalions and Brigades. And both are taken regularly. As I mentioned there have been multiple lists that took 8 units of Guardsmen which is obviously more than the minimum for a brigade.

Personally I would say that if an unit is an autotake in a soup list then it is spammed. Whether 32 or 80 are taken the fact of the matter is that they feature in 90 odd percent of Imperium lists.

They can also perform feats that don't make any sense in game, like move faster than a super human or even a supersonic jet. They can fire twice as fast as other units. Or magically increase their armour to ludicrous levels. It makes no sense and breaks all immersion. Even for Guard players in my experience.

And both used a bare minimum of Guard infantry. Not the 10+ squads they could have taken. I saw one list that took more than 6, and at least half were naked.

And I say I disagree with your definition of spammed, as I use a more conventional usage.

As for feats of 'orders', well that's the game. The problem is more that Supersonic Jets are moving under 50 MPH, not that guard are running faster than them. They can fire twice as fast...with las guns. And I'm not sure what order you're looking at that increases their armor.

Your experience is different than mine. I find the orders mostly flaverful. God forbid a non-super soldier gets a special rule.

The only things I’m aware of that can increase guardsman armor saves from the IG codex are the psychic power Psychic Barrier and the Stratagem Take Cover!

Yeah. And honestly, given the limits on those things (both once per turn, both requiring expenditure of CPs/psychic test) they are perfectly fine and not particularly immersion-breaking. The immersion break for me is when 50 guardsmen and their officers up and book it faster than every other "fast" troop in the game and faster than most bikes/mounted units to secure an objective somewhere, or get boosted to crazy levels and double-attack to wipe out 20 ork boyz. Orders and their versatility make guardsmen feel far more "super" than the "super-human" factions like marines or eldar.

Tech-Priest Enginseer 30
Tech-Priest Enginseer 30
Skitarii Rangers 35
Skitarii Rangers 35
Skitarii Rangers 35

165.

Also, as you just yourself said, new sisters do a battalion for less.

People do not take guardsmen battalions only for CP, imperial soup has cheaper options for CP farming.

They take guardsman battalions because guardsmen paired with 2 CCs outperform any other detachment at that point level to an absurd degree because of their flexibility with orders.

Those skitarii rangers can't do anything REMOTELY like pumping out 40 shots from a 40 point squad, or booking it 19" across the table to obsec swarm an objective. Every other cheap as chips filler battalion in the game can do little more than stand around and die. Guardsmen with a tournament vet playing them win people games, regularly.

FWIW - because Admech was the thing I had my battlescribe opened to, I ran a quick durability calculation. 90 points of Kataphron Breachers actually do outlive guardsmen against any weapon until you get into Overcharged Plasma territory, when the multiwound and toughness max favors the guardsmen for obvious reasons.

Other elite troops like custodes, intercessors etc outperform guardsmen versus small arms, and then you've got troops like brims that will solidly outperform guardsmen against anything that has AP, again for pretty obvious reasons.

The statement that Guardsmen are more durable against anything than any other troop for the points is patently false. But they're pretty unusually durable for the points considering that most other comparable infantry either has drastically worse defenses (grots, gaunts) or costs a large percentage more (guardians, kabalites, fire warriors etc). Or both. And none of them even come even in the neighborhood of the ridiculous flexibility afforded to guard by orders.

catbarf wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Finally real life backs all of this up. Which is why they are taken en masse in the vast majority of Imperial lists.

I've been following the last couple of pages of discussion waiting for someone to explain how taking the absolute minimum needed to meet CP requirements, implying that there is no reason to take them besides farming CPs, constitutes using them 'en masse'. At best it sounds like they're the most useful CP-farming choice, which is first and foremost a matter of cheapness rather than anything they do on the table.

Do you think they'd be showing up in every soup list if CP generation were nerfed? If so, why, if currently nobody is taking any more than they are required to for CP purposes?

Guardsmen and CCs are not taken purely for CP generation purposes. As I explained above, if they were, then people would be taking 15 rangers+2 techpriests instead, for 15 fewer points.

Guardsmen and CCs are taken because 180 points of them are as useful or more useful than 400-500 points of other armies' CP generating troops.

Every CP generating screen detachment is going to have two major purposes: The obvious, giving 5 or 12cp to your real workhorse units (it's in the name) and whatever secondary use you can get out of them. Guard has the second-cheapest Battalion in the game behind admech at 165 with other competitors being Chaos Daemons at 292 for the usually-taken nurgle battalion and Drukhari at 234 (imperial soup has a huge advantage in CP generation over the other soups). Tau are not a soup army but they do out-do guard at 160pts I believe (forget the exact pts cost of a fireblade).

One is screening, keeping your opponent from getting close turn 1/2 by putting a paper-thin buffer zone of movement blocking models on the table. Guardsmen are not the best at this job at the Battalion level, because they have no pregame movement with which to widen the net zone - currently, only Nurglings and marine Scouts do this from the troops role for free. I'll take "the reason scouts exist in competitive 40k" for 300, Alex. Guard does do this if you go to Brigade level by bringing Scout Sentinels, who you see start to crop up any time a fast assault turn 1 or an all-out deep strike turn 1 becomes a meta move. Depending on how ork da jump affects the meta, you'll probably see guard detachments go from battalion to brigade.

One is bubblewrap, keeping your opponent from getting close by actually not dying, and tying things up. Guard have no competition here, their CP detachments are nearly 1.5x as durable for the points as their closest competitor, nurglings/poxwalkers/plaguebearers, and they blow away competition like marine scouts, grots, kabalites and skitarii. To be more durable than naked guardsmen with no support for the points against anti-chaff firepower, you need to either be elite infantry with extreme weaknesses against anti-elite firepower (intercessors, kataphrons, etc) or you need to be buffed up by expensive aura buffers.

Another is damage. Again, thanks to orders, the Little Guard Detachment That Could is head and shoulders better than any competition even close to their price bracket. Guardsmen outdamage the cheaper admech minimum detachment by 2x against almost all targets. Pretty good for 15pts. many min detachments (like nurglings, grots, wracks, and brims) put out zero firepower. Their closest competition I believe is Tau, makes sense, the longrange shooting faction, who Guard only outperform by 33%. You wear that second-place medal proudly, tau.

Another is holding objectives. Guess which minimum obsec detachment moves the fastest? Hint, it's not Eldar.

One more time for the people in the back: Tournament players are not taking minimum guard detachments just because they give the best CP for the points. Because they don't. people are taking minimum guard detachments because they are head-and-shoulders above every other CP-generating detachment in the entire game while still being one of the very cheapest. And not just better at one thing. Better at everything. Anything you want to do with cheap troops from any faction, Guard does better.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

My guess is that it's the body count over all. The guard however to have access to longer ranged weapons, meaning they can camp backfield objectives better.

Both sisters and Admech are only fielding 17 models, as opposed to 32. Officers are more combat oriented then Techpriests, and techpriests can't fix stuff outside of IG or AdMech. Officers are cheaper than a canoness, and have options, unlike the current Missionary.

So you're saying that the Guard are better for their points than other alternatives? Almost like they were too cheap for what they bring!

No, I said more bodies.

Fifteen sisters actually have more fire power and both have more durability per model. Actually, AdMech probably have more firepower as well. But It's the bodies that people value right now.

This is the most hilariously short-sighted way of looking at this, that I'm not even certain how to respond to it.

Are you actually trying to say that orders should be discounted for the guard detachments when you take two company commanders in every one?

against nearly any target, Guard+2CCs with FRFSRF outdamage:

15 skitarii rangers
15 tau firewarriors (assuming Tau are in range of the Cadre Fireblades they brought with AND the fireblades got 1 markerlight on their target)
15 marine scouts (assuming the scouts have a captain aura)
15 sisters of battle (assuming the sisters have the same aura from one of their canonesses)
30 GSC neophytes
30 Termagants
30 grots+2 smites from weirdboyz
15 kabalites in an archon aura (and even if they have the reroll 1 to wound aura relic too)

and obviously, all the min detachments that don't shoot at all, of which there are several.

and this damage gap comes along with the fact that the loyal 32 are often 2/3 to 1/2 as expensive as many competing detachments.

Nah, if you want to repair stuff, you don't play tournaments, because nothing gets repaired.

If you want massive short range firepower and DTW attempts, you take a guard brigade, which has 120 S3 AP- attacks within 12 +9d6 S4 Ap- attacks that ignore LOS and have range = board, 3 DTW attempts that can also be 3 smites, and costs 609 points.

15 sisters with reroll aura do not outdamage 30 guardsmen with FRFSRF. At any range. Try again.


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Also, lol@ "more durable per wound."

Because that's a thing people consider, right? it's why Terminators are the best units in the game.

 Mmmpi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

My guess is that it's the body count over all. The guard however to have access to longer ranged weapons, meaning they can camp backfield objectives better.

Both sisters and Admech are only fielding 17 models, as opposed to 32. Officers are more combat oriented then Techpriests, and techpriests can't fix stuff outside of IG or AdMech. Officers are cheaper than a canoness, and have options, unlike the current Missionary.

So you're saying that the Guard are better for their points than other alternatives? Almost like they were too cheap for what they bring!

No, I said more bodies.

Fifteen sisters actually have more fire power and both have more durability per model. Actually, AdMech probably have more firepower as well. But It's the bodies that people value right now.

This is the most hilariously short-sighted way of looking at this, that I'm not even certain how to respond to it.

Are you actually trying to say that orders should be discounted for the guard detachments when you take two company commanders in every one?

against nearly any target, Guard+2CCs with FRFSRF outdamage:

15 skitarii rangers
15 tau firewarriors (assuming Tau are in range of the Cadre Fireblades they brought with AND the fireblades got 1 markerlight on their target)
15 marine scouts (assuming the scouts have a captain aura)
15 sisters of battle (assuming the sisters have the same aura from one of their canonesses)
30 GSC neophytes
30 Termagants
30 grots+2 smites from weirdboyz
15 kabalites in an archon aura (and even if they have the reroll 1 to wound aura relic too)

and obviously, all the min detachments that don't shoot at all, of which there are several.

and this damage gap comes along with the fact that the loyal 32 are often 2/3 to 1/2 as expensive as many competing detachments.

Then why did you respond?

But I suppose you want an actual answer to your wondering.

When did I say orders should be discounted? RF2 las guns don't really equal the damage on heavier things compared to two meltas and a combi-plasma.

I think you're also forgetting all the other abilities those units have besides raw firepower.

What detachment here has 2 meltas and a combi-plasma? The sisters one? Because that's not a 215 point detachment, that's a 332 point detachment. And it does do more damage against vehicles within 12". For the points, it does...a bit more than twice as much more.

For the points, guard lasguns do a little less than half as much damage versus TANKS

as MELTA GUNS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You guys do realize a major problem with the data you were talking about right?

Until two or three weeks ago, guard *were* the cheapest battalion.

To say no one takes the AdMech 17 or Faithful 17 to tournaments is self evident - they weren't cheaper till a bit ago. Now that they are, I suspect they might go up in popularity.

I know my superheavy tanks are using an IG bn AND an AdMech BN. :p

Faithful 17 is not cheaper.

Let's just say I...strongly suspect that the guard battalion having twice the durability, twice the firepower, twice the movement range and twice the screening footprint will probably be worth 15 points to most tournament players.

You are arguing dishonestly in the most blatant way.

Why, in a post where you say "it's not cheaper, by 35 points" presumably referring to the 180 point Guard Battalion and the 215 point sisters battalion, do you give the guard squads a plasma gun and a mortar each and the sisters squads two meltas and a plasma?

None of those things are in the minimum detachments. You're also looking here at 332 points of sisters versus 222 points of guardsmen...and the guardsmen still do more damage, lol.

You have to resort to "versus marines, in a detachment entirely unlike the detachments we're actually talking about, within 12", and with 100 more points, guardsmen only do very slightly more damage" to try and muddy the waters at this point.

Please, keep going, I'm having a wonderful time. Next analyze 600 points of fire warriors vs 180 points of guardsmen at 25" range to prove why fire warriors are better.


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The minimum sisters of battle detachment is 35 points more, which is 210 points of sisters with BOLTGUNS, not special weapons.

They do less than half as much damage against all targets, at all ranges. They move half as much. They die at a faster rate to all weapons, from lasguns on up. They have half the footprint on the table.

They have one, and exactly one, redeeming feature, which you mentioned: DTW attempts. Imperial Guard can add DTW attempts at 25pts per, if they want them.

PSA: mmpi's math here is absolute nonsense. For fun, try figuring out how many sisters squads with 2 melta, 1 combi-plasma and 2 boltguns it takes to do those numbers to marines in 12".

The answer is different for each category of weapon.

Also...wait...the math is just wrong here. He's got the mortar and laspistol numbers from 3 squads of guardsmen, the lasgun numbers are for 4.5 squads of guardsmen, and the plasma gun numbers are for 4 squads of guardsmen.

I think this is all just made up. The sisters are also doing 25% more damage with their plasma than they should be, 25% more with their melta, half as much with their bolters...

Yeah this is all just a fantasy.

Actual "mmpi's weird math comparison" numbers, for the curious.

3 guard squads with plasma+mortar+laspistol because feth free bolters amirite vs marines in rapid fire range:

4.16 las weapons
1.66 plasma guns
.874 mortars
6.694 dead marines.
222 points of guard.

3 sisters squads with melta+combi-plasma in canoness range at rapid fire distance:

0.78 from bolters
2.59 from plasma
3.11 from melta
no krak grenades because they're not in range
6.48 dead marines
332 points of sisters.



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 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-math.

3 Squads of Guardsmen, Mortar, Plasma Gun.
2 Company Commanders (out of range to shoot, in range to order).

3 Squads of Sisters (5-girl), 2 Meltas, Combi-Plas (only Plasma firing).
2 Cannonesses (out of range to shoot, in range for auras).

Guardsmen get FRF,SRF
29 Lasgun shots
3.5 Mortars
2 Plasma

29/2 S3 hits
7/4 S4 hits
1 S8 AP-3 D2 hit

Against MEQ...

29/6 wounds
7/8 wounds
5/6 AP-3 wounds

6.54 dead Marines per Squad

Sisters get RR 1s to-hit.
4 Bolt shots
2 Melta Shots
2 Plasma shots

28/9 bolt hits
14/9 melta hits
14/9 plasma hits

14/9 bolt wounds
35/27 melta wounds
35/27 plasma wounds

2.90 dead Marines per squad

But I do question why MEQ-hunting squads take anti-tank weapons.

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope, try again. You're off on those guard numbers by about 3x. Lasgun shots do not have a 1/6 chance to kill marines, they have a 1/18 chance.

Asmodios wrote:
I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta? We know that spam has been taken in guard lists this edition (conscript and hellhound) so its not like its against some internal code. Also, spam, in general, has been incredibly strong we have seen
Cultist Spam
Termigants Spam
Hellhound Spam
PBC Spam
and on and on and on
So where are the 200 guardsmen lists? there's effectively no limit on how many you can take. According to dakka they are always going to be in rapid-fire orders range melting everything on the field and they are utterly unkillable. So why do we see not only other units but other troop units spammed to great effect but not the beyond overpowered guardsmen? Its almost like there real strength is CP generation and that's what we see them for. We saw more of the loyal 32 before the CP generation change and more battalion now but still no actual spam lists.

Honestly curious why we haven't seen it if they are the super soldiers some seem to think they are

Ah yes, the old "if evolution is real, why do we not have a link between man and this LAST link I asked for???" argument.

in the span of time between conscripts not being mathematically superior to guardsmen and now, I see 31 winning "guard-primary" lists on bloodofkittens. The vast majority have brigades, usually with 6 squads, then a soup detachment to take care of the one thing guard don't do best of the imperial factions - spend CP on killing heavy elite models. Custode Captains, Smashcaptains, and Raven Castellans are taken to do that.

Argument: There does not exist a CP-generating unit with better firepower, faster movement speed, or greater durability per point than guardsmen.

Response: Then why isn't anyone taking a list with only them in it?

Because you use something else to spend the CP the guardsmen generate.



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catbarf wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I've already said like a hundred times in this thread that they aren't only taken in minimum sizes to fulfil CP requirements. Are you sure you read the last few pages?

Scotsman also mentioned a cheaper Imperial Battalion in Ad Mech. If cost was the only factor that would be taken instead but it isn't.

Perhaps I'm missing a post, but I haven't seen much evidence of soup players using more than the bare minimum required for CP. Looking through the top ITC lists for October from Blood of Kittens, and feel free to tell me if this is an outlier, I see the following:
Minimum battalion: 5
Minimum brigade: 2
More-than-minimum battalion: 1 (6 Inf + Straken + Priest, so going for that melee blob)
More-than-minimum brigade: 1 (all-Guard list save for a Castellan, took 8 Inf squads)

That doesn't exactly scream 'infantry are great and you should spend lots of points on them' to me, it says that they're the best choice for soup lists to fill battalion/brigade slots. I can absolutely buy that they're the best CP tax available to soup lists, but being the best CP tax doesn't necessarily mean they're brokenly overpowered. It just means that they're the only sub-200pt battalion that actually pulls its own weight (in contrast to, for example, the useless Tech-Priests in AdMech battalions), which is a very different thing from performing above their cost. Kill CP farming and I suspect the number of Guardsmen showing up in tournament-winning lists will drop considerably.

I've said before and feel I should reiterate: I'm strongly in favor of Guardsmen going to 5ppm, and I'm okay with reworking orders to make them a little more subtle/reasonable, since Guardsmen seriously should not be the most flexible infantry in the game. I just don't think this idea that Guard hordes are sweeping the tournament scene is an accurate assessment; they show up in every soup list because they're the best CP battery, and killing that mechanic should cut down on the number of Guardsmen showing up in tournaments. Then we can look at how they actually perform as a unit without this 'they're in 2935% of tournament lists!' baggage muddying the waters.

I'm also not sure why people keep repeating that AdMech have a cheaper battalion. That is only true as of CA a couple of weeks ago, so of course we're not seeing it much in tournaments yet (although one of the winning lists in the link above did actually take an AdMech battalion for CP). Give it time.

"guardsmen spam is sweeping the tournament scene" is not the argument being put forward, it is the argument being assigned by the opposition to create a strawman.

Exactly what you listed is the argument: min detachments of guardsmen massively outperform min detachments of anything else, leading to a balance problem where they are an auto-include to generate CPs.

catbarf wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Argument: There does not exist a CP-generating unit with better firepower, faster movement speed, or greater durability per point than guardsmen.

Response: Then why isn't anyone taking a list with only them in it?

Because you use something else to spend the CP the guardsmen generate.

Then the most straightforward and necessary nerf is to kill their ability to generate CP for other things, no?

If they're only being taken in the minimum quantity needed to generate those CP, then clearly they're being chosen for CP first and firepower/movement/durability second.

That still does not address the other three problem with Guard. There is no unit even close to their price range that does what they do, and it has never been demonstrated that just because you take them in the configuration where the squads grant you CP, they are not overly efficient with that CP generation being a factor in their cost.

Guard squads are taken in multiples of 3, or 6, most commonly, because in those configurations the guard squads are generating you CPs in addition to their other capabilities.

If you removed their ability to generate CPs for Knights, Blood Angels and Custodes, would we see people taking lists of only Knights, Blood Angels and Custodes, or would we see people taking lists of only Guard, replacing the heavy element with something like a Catachan Shadowsword in a Supreme Command?

We don't know, because that hasn't happened, but in tournaments prior to the Blood Angel/Knight codex release, Catachan Brigades with a Shadowsword were pretty common, usually showing up alongside a Celestine+culexus mini-detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another issue is that we don't yet have a way to nerf a unit's "CP generation" besides making them not troops, upping minimum squad size, or upping point costs.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


"Why don't we see armies of only Guardsmen?" is a complete and utter false equivalence. The answer is the same reason you don't see armies of pure kabalite warriors, or 4ppm Cultists or any other troop unit you believe to be under costed. There is a strength in taking mixed lists that maximise efficiencies, strangely enough.

If I may offer a counterpoint: there are other units also composed of Guardsmen that can fill other roles in ways which have no equivalents for these units from other armies, that do allow you to build a whole cohesive army. Heavy and Special weapons squads and Veterans. Yet these units are relatively rarely seen next to the Infantry Squad, despite being similarly costed with the same orders and abilities and weapons and arguably even more cost effective in some respects at many tasks.

What we see 90% of the time in the competitive arena is just enough troop guardsmen to fill out the detachment requirements, with these other units rarely fielded (HWS's appear sometimes, almost exclusively with just mortars).

Now, to be fair, the rule of 3 kneecaps these other units to some extent, but we still see these other Guardsmen composed units relatively rarely despite otherwise offering pretty much the same advantages except theyre just not Troops.

Ice_can wrote:


So index armies and other things like inquisition and assasins should just be squated then?

These things aren't really armies in the first place in and of themselves, and GW handling of them really needs to be changed. They need to be generic plug ins for Imperial armies, Assassins are not an army on their own in any sense and shouldnt be treated as such. Neither is the Inquisition, they take command of armies but are not an army inherently. Index lists need to be updated.

The CP sharing needs to be addressed however, Guardsmen or no. Allies shenanigans are, above and beyond any one faction, the single largest issue the game faces.

HWS aren't seen? When half the reason the rule of 3 exists is because people were taking 15+ mortar teams in their lists?

Special weapons squads and veteran squads aren't seen because their job is done better by Command Squads and Scions who have the same special weapons access but get deep strike/don't have to take lasgun bodies.

When there is a unit that is strong to decent, but there exists a 100% better version that uses the same models, you'll basicaly never see that unit no matter how good they might be.

I bet you a nickel the ratio of tactical squads to company veteran squads/sternguard squads we'll be seeing in marine lists from now on is going to have a 0: on one end of it.