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What do you figure they're going to do with this?

Honestly as much as they don’t need it could be a buff

Do you mean are they due a trip to the Veterinarian? If so, there will be a great disturbance in the Farce. As if a million soul stones shattered at once . . .

Hopefully, they will finally figure out a way to balance SFD without having to constantly nerf it. Maybe come up with some way to make Ynnari be across your entire army, but give you access to one set of stratagems or more? Not sure, but like put an end to taking a DE Kabal detachment just for Vect. Maybe like your entire army has to be Ynnari, so detachments can't take craftworld/kabal/troupe rules.

I'm actually not sure how Ynnari even work now.

I have a feeling that inari may end up like the special detachments in both vigilus books. So you pay X CP for some set up of units and they get the Inari trait instead of the eldar,harli or dark eldar trait. A bit like the fallen . And each such "battalion" could be linked to taking specific heros. So to get inari eldar, you would have to take the demon thingy and a farseer, to get the dark eldar the Red Baron and some dark eldar HQ, harlis would be the cat lady and something harlequin in nature.

Inari specific stratagems. relics. they could even have a rule that says, you can only take a inari battalion with other inari battalions, so people stop running non Inari DE with them.

Regardless of balance (nerfed or buffed), I really hope the rules are cleaned up considerably.

The best way I can think of would be to remove that whole YNNARI detachment Keyword swapping nonsense.

The 3 Characters should be the only YNNARI units period. And, like Assassins, you add them to an AELDARI army in one of 3 ways:
-1 in an Aux detachment
-All 3 in a Supreme detachment, even though they are 2 HQs and 1 LoW
-Spend 1 CP and add one of them

After that, make SfD an aura ability and/or Stratagem that the Characters give out to AELDARI unit(s). This ability should give a bonus (+1 attack or +1 to wound rolls, etc) and NOT be a duplicate action.

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Karol wrote:
I have a feeling that inari may end up like the special detachments in both vigilus books. So you pay X CP for some set up of units and they get the Inari trait instead of the eldar,harli or dark eldar trait. A bit like the fallen . And each such "battalion" could be linked to taking specific heros. So to get inari eldar, you would have to take the demon thingy and a farseer, to get the dark eldar the Red Baron and some dark eldar HQ, harlis would be the cat lady and something harlequin in nature.

Inari specific stratagems. relics. they could even have a rule that says, you can only take a inari battalion with other inari battalions, so people stop running non Inari DE with them.

That is a great idea.

If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Well if reapers couldint shoot twice and stuff fight twice it could just be pointed accordingly so i can take it in a normal cw army without it being stupidly overcosted and redundant.

The faction containing one kit box isint really an army... maybe turn ynnari into an actual army and give them 4 kits like garlequins so they can keep their grubby hands to themselves and not affect monodex points.

I'm really hoping for a nerf.

More importantly to me, I want to be able to take Kabs and Guardians and Troupers and Corsairs in one Ynnari detatchment again. Hopefully they can find a way to make that happen without being OP. But there's almost no chance of them doing that.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Honestly as much as they don’t need it could be a buff

I'm certain they'll add interesting stratagems and such that could be strong, but tackling SFD would be the best thing GW could do aside from handling Castellans.

 Argive wrote:
Well if reapers couldint shoot twice and stuff fight twice it could just be pointed accordingly so i can take it in a normal cw army without it being stupidly overcosted and redundant.

I'd rather have Reapers simply shoot twice like a Leman Russ, or maybe even with a strat like Endless Cacaphony, but not give up chapter traits, a useful warlord, be limited to only one unit doing it, pass a fickle and deniable psychic test to do it, give up my free relic, etc.., etc..

Yeah being a strat like.. 1cp for one unit to shoot or fight twice, 3 cp for 2. And then buff the sfd to just work, not need a death to happen. Cause we are eldar and we deserve things. I’m not being sarcastic either

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Agreed. Shoot twice, Fight twice, etc should be a Strat only, maybe also a Psychic power. SFD should be a 6-12" aura that any of the Ynnari Characters give Aeldari units and be a simple as +1 to wound rolls, or something like that.

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Maybe some sort of death mechanics, where you stack upp oints for stuff being dead, and have a list of effects you can spend the points on. onet oken could be something simple like re-roll, while a lot of tokens could have table wide effects.

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

Sh sh sh, you’re making to much sense. Those units aren’t as good as dark reapers in their eyes cause they aren’t eldar therefore your argument is invalid. Just to be clear I agree with you, but that’s what others will say

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Sh sh sh, you’re making to much sense. Those units aren’t as good as dark reapers in their eyes cause they aren’t eldar therefore your argument is invalid. Just to be clear I agree with you, but that’s what others will say

Now you're just being disingenuous about what Ynnari brings to the table currently.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

Sh sh sh, you’re making to much sense. Those units aren’t as good as dark reapers in their eyes cause they aren’t eldar therefore your argument is invalid. Just to be clear I agree with you, but that’s what others will say

Way to build a straw man there!

Dark Reapers are better than Berserkers though. Not in a vacuum of course, but in the context of real armies.

People conflate "too easily/cheaply" with "Free". And doing so destroys any actual dialog that might be possible.

Ynnari get double actions too easily/cheaply. They pay, although they may not pay enough.

That said, compared to IoM Guard/Knight/Beatstick lists, it's rather apparent that they *don't* get it too easily/cheaply. But compared to the vast majority of the armies out there, they certainly do.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

considering stuff like dark reapers or s spears are undercosted, then the tax thing doesn't really happen. And the over laping buffs in form of eldar psychic powers make them even better. I mean if inari were so balanced or even weak, then wouldn't DE and eldar armies place higher then them in most events? Yet somehow it is always the Inari lists that do better. My fight another time works in melee, costs 3CP, can be vected, and my army also doesnt get to use relics or anything other then maybe 2 out of all of their stratagems.

 Galef wrote:
The best way I can think of would be to remove that whole YNNARI detachment Keyword swapping nonsense.

The 3 Characters should be the only YNNARI units period. And, like Assassins, you add them to an AELDARI army in one of 3 ways:
-1 in an Aux detachment
-All 3 in a Supreme detachment, even though they are 2 HQs and 1 LoW
-Spend 1 CP and add one of them

I like that idea (and btw the Yncarne is also an HQ).

I also hope for a complete rework of SftD. I don't like fight/shoot twice abilities, even as stratagem, so I would prefer if they just removed it completely.
Auras could be nice, and they could re-use some of the current SftD mecanism. When a unit is destroyed, an Aeldari unit close by, if it's also under the aura of an Ynnari character, gets a buff. And the buff could be something like +1A, or +1BS, or +2" movement or something, until next turn (or until the end of the unit's next move/shoot/fight phase). It would keep some of the same vibe, while removing the most busted combos.

Overall, I think the idea that your units get something if they're close to people dying is a pretty nice thing, both fluff wise and in terms of game mechanism. The problem is the nature of the buff.
You could even have some type of on/off state for the units: if they're close to a dying unit, it switches their "invigorated" state on. Could be something fancy, or a boring 6+ FNP, but I really think they need to keep the "get close to units when they die" thing.

Karol wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

considering stuff like dark reapers or s spears are undercosted, then the tax thing doesn't really happen. And the over laping buffs in form of eldar psychic powers make them even better. I mean if inari were so balanced or even weak, then wouldn't DE and eldar armies place higher then them in most events? Yet somehow it is always the Inari lists that do better. My fight another time works in melee, costs 3CP, can be vected, and my army also doesnt get to use relics or anything other then maybe 2 out of all of their stratagems.

Hahaha..haha.. aah, you said dark reapers and Spears are UNDER costed? No my friend.. far from the truth.

Bharring 773368 10395721 wrote:

Hahaha..haha.. aah, you said dark reapers and Spears are UNDER costed? No my friend.. far from the truth.

a S Spear costs less then a paladin has more harder hiting attacks, augmented by eldar psychic powers, has hard to compare speed, can fight twice without paying 3 CP for it. And can be souped to have access to vect or other eldar or D eldar support units. Same with reapers a unit that can deep strike and then vanish behind a wall to be unshotable, can be pulled off by my dread with astral aim. The thing is it is hard to compare a las+rocket launcher dreadnought with a unit of dark eldar. Which again can be buffed by doom, protected by vect etc.

They seem cheap to me, for what they do.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Sh sh sh, you’re making to much sense. Those units aren’t as good as dark reapers in their eyes cause they aren’t eldar therefore your argument is invalid. Just to be clear I agree with you, but that’s what others will say

Now you're just being disingenuous about what Ynnari brings to the table currently.

Nobody says they aren't good.

But claiming double activations are somehow unique to Ynnari and/or unique to Ynnari as a non-stratagem or not a common feature in basically all 40K armies is disingenuous too.

To some extend, just soul bursting cannot logically be the problem, because if it was, Drukhari Ynnari would arguably better than Craftworld Ynnari, as Drukhari perform better as non/Ynnari than Craftworlds perform as non/Ynnari.

The kicker, to a large degree, are the strong psychic buffs available to Craftworlds and the ability to get "double value" out of those buffs thanks to soul burst.

Addressing some of those issue, e.g. making doom work only for (non/ynnari) craftworld eldar with the same <craftworld> as the farseer, for example, is something overdue for Eldar, ynnari or not.

And, of course, other double activations are also problematic and, IMO, somewhat too frequent in the game. Especially as strats.

From a game-design perspective, I think soul burst is a far better mechanic for double activation because the opponent can interact with it through denys, smart pulling of casualties, etc.. It's "a game" here. With stratagems or extra activations like those of the Sisters (which might also be a template for Nu-Ynnari), that player interactivity is lost and the double activation is far more predicatable/powerful, abusable and less fun as a game-mechanic.


I also think Ynnari are an important part of the diversity of the meta. It's one of the few (if not the only? As Custodes drift further and further?) that can hang in a competitive game with "normal" 5-10 men (or elf) units that just do their thing, neither spamming million of bodies nor playing the raw math game of a T8 3++ wall.

The game IMO needs more armies (whether Eldar-Codex based or not) that fight "competitively" with under 40 models of T3 or T4 guys, maybe a single transport and a handful of support characters.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

This is how you know Eldar players are disillusioned. You want a 5 wound psyker with a 4++, a +1 to cast and deny on all spells , who heals back for every model slain around her and can cast two powers per turn to cost less than 100 pts...

Do you understand that a chaos sorcerer is 98 pts, only he doesn' have a 4++, nor a +1 to cast, with only 4 wounds , less movement, who doesn't heal himself and does not confer ANY ability whatsoever?

"considering stuff like dark reapers or s spears are undercosted, then the tax thing doesn't really happen."
See, if you said "But the cost is so low, and the units it gets used with are so good even without it, that it feels free", you'd have made a reasonable and informed argument. Instead, your comment just seems to argue that Ynnari are "free".

" I mean if inari were so balanced or even weak, then wouldn't DE and eldar armies place higher then them in most events?"
We actually do see that fairly frequently - non-Ynnari Aeldari are taking many of the formerly-Ynnari slots at the top levels.

"My fight another time works in melee, costs 3CP, can be vected"
Ynnari Fight Twice can fail to manifest or be denied. Which will happen much more frequently.

"I also hope for a complete rework of SftD"
Likewise. Maybe stratagems. Maybe death refunds CP somehow. Maybe just weaker buffs. I'd rather SfD were things like "5+ FnP" or "+1 WS/BS" or "Reroll 1s".

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Malfurious wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If they do that I’d be fine with it. But then add in a formation where you take dark reapers and they shoot twice, shining spears fight twice, you know things that make us not lose the playability of our army and how it works. Maybe some points drops too. Yvraine should literally be like.. 100 points. If that.

Other armies have stratagems for that, generally in the 2 to 3CP range.. Ynnari getting that for basically free is/was ridiculous

Ynnari don't get it for free. They have to take pricey HQ tax characters, loose chapter tactics, loose the free relic, AND it's far more easily countered than strats (they also lose CP farming to fuel the strats).

And lots of armies get it totally free without a strat. Khorne Berzerkers, all Imperial Guard on Move! Move Move!, the Swarmlord just does it to another unit, Leman Russ, etc.., etc..

So the Swarmlord is not a "pricey HQ tax character"? Also, I remember the last time I went to a tournament and 40% of the table were Khorne Berzerkers. Indeed. If SfD is so crappy as you describe it, how come every last competitive dude prefers to play it instead of anything else?

"a S Spear costs less then a paladin has more harder hiting attacks"
Your Termies have less than 2 attacks? And they're below S6?

Stock Marine Termies cost about the same as a Spear, have the same number of attacks, and is either +2S or +6S depending on whether the Spear charged. Yes, that is +6.

"augmented by eldar psychic powers, has hard to compare speed, can fight twice without paying 3 CP for it."
Reasonable points.

"And can be souped to have access to vect or other eldar or D eldar support units."
But can't be souped into Loyal32 or with Castellians or anything else from the top Faction - unlike even GK.

"Same with reapers a unit that can deep strike and then vanish behind a wall to be unshotable,"
For 2CP, using stratagems.

"can be pulled off by my dread with astral aim. The thing is it is hard to compare a las+rocket launcher dreadnought with a unit of dark eldar."
LasRocket Dread? Lets take a look at the BL/ML Wraithlord.

"Which again can be buffed by doom, protected by vect etc. "
But again, can't get Assasisns or Loyal32 or Castellians or...

On the balance, Spears are good. But you're overstating.