Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The reworked ynnari have a pretty heavy melee lean to their rules. Their chapter tactic equivalent only works in melee. Their Doom-equivalent only works in melee. Many of their strats are specifically boosts to melee. The ynnari special characters don't have a shooting attack to their name. They're clearly geared to be a melee army. Which is fine. However, the more lists I create with the ynnari rules, the more I wonder if I'm actually coming out ahead in melee by using them.

I keep hearing people mention that Harlequins benefit a lot from the situational +1 to hit from Strength From Death, but I'm pretty sure that's mathematically less good than simply using the Frozen Stars rules to keep +1 Attack. And the masque form doesn't require a unit die first to benefit. The ynnari strat and psychic powers letting you reroll to-wound in melee is nice, but harlequins already have access to that in the form of troupe masters. So to my mind, harlequins are getting a worse alternative to the Frozen Stars rules while also giving up a lot of the mobility and durability provided by space clown strats, psychic powers, and relics. Plus you give up solitaires which is probably a nerf to your overall melee prowess.

Drukhari are a bit tougher to break down. The +1 to hit bonus from Strength From Death is less beneficial to them because essentially everyone is hitting on 2+ at the start of turn 3. So unless a melee unit with a -1 to hit penalty is giving you trouble, the +1 is redundant.

Most kabal units don't have enough melee ability to really want to be in a position to benefit from Strength From Death in the first place. Those that do (archons and lhameans) are probably pretty comfortable being ynnari and maybe come out slightly ahead compared to their drukhari options. Wych cult units like having a +1 to hit on turns 1 and 2, but they can already get that with drugs if they really want it. But generally they'd probably prefer the +1 Attack obsession (just like Frozen Star harlies) or the +1 Strength obsession. Incubi like the +1 to hit, but you give up Onslaught to get it and have to spend 2CP to benefit from it at all. But least drukhari enjoy having access to to-wound rerolls in melee (on models that don't already have that benefit).

Pretty much anything craftworlder would probably prefer to be Alaitoc in terms of raw optimization, but even their melee units don't seem to gain that much from being ynnari.
Warlocks (which are too overpriced to field as a squad anyway) like the +1 to hit but can already get it via a psychic power. Plus, they can use that psychic power on any of the other craftworld melee units. That's less good than an army-wide +1, but you have to lean into having lots of melee units for that to really be a dramatic benefit, and at some point you're taking so many suboptimal melee units that Strength From Death ceases to be a net benefit.

Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees don't really kill things this edition; they tackle and tie units up. Between a low number of attacks and a low strength value, these units just don't kill much more with Strength From Death than without it. Although getting bonus attacks with a scorpion exarch on a 4+ is fun. Storm Guardians are basically cheaper, even less lethal scorpions/banshees. It will be neat to hit more often, but probably not noticable enough of a boost to make your craftworlders into a melee force.

Wraith units (especially wraith blades) do get a boost from Strength From Death and are good targets for Word of the Phoenix, but you could already get similar results using the Iyanden relic.

Shining Spears seem like the best craftworld unit for ynnari. They don't have a lot of attacks, but each attack is deadly and expensive enough for a +1 to hit to feel useful. They're also a good target for Word of the Phoenix and can get a Saim-Hann-esque stratagem as ynnari. Still, they give up several mobility durability-boosting options they would have had as non-ynnari. Going ynnari with these guys seems like a mostly horizontal change. Do you want to reroll wounds in melee and the ability to heal the unit, or do you want to reroll wound in melee AND shooting, a 3+ invul save, and 5+ feel no pain?

So far, I've neglected to mention the "always swing first" part of Strength From Death. Personally, I don't value it all that highly. Mostly because it's not actually "always swing first." As aeldari, we're typically either charging in on our own turn (thus going first anyway) or else falling back with units that are bad at melee. We don't usually like staying locked in with enemy units that are stabby enough to worry about swinging first anyway.

On your opponent's turn, he'll be the one doing the charging, so he'll get to attack with whichever one of his melee units is most important first anyway. When you then proceed to swing second with a soulbursting unit, you'll only get to swing against something that matters if your opponent made the mistake of charging into an ill-advised position (leaving a character open to being attacked by shining spears for instance) or if he failed to fall back. So in order to really feel the benefits of "always strike first," your opponent has to have several valuable units in melee with one of your own melee units that can actually hit hard enough to do some damage.

Am I underestimating something or downplaying one of the new ynnari strengths? I keep building ynnari lists trying to make a melee-centric list that feels like it benefits from jumping through ynnari hoops, and I generally end up feeling like I broke even at best.

Thanks for the break down. I don't have any to add though.

Shining Spears with doom, jinx, fortune, guide, quicken, protect and conceal are so much better than anything Ynnari can offer. Always swing first is not a great trait when the last thing Eldar want to do as a faction is get stuck in close combat for more than a phase.

Expensive T3 bodies with relatively weak damage compared to other faction's CC units (GSC acolytes, bloodletters, daemonettes, etc) are simply not built for prolonged CC.

Nice breakdown!

The best melee Aeldari units are Grotesques and Taloi.
However, both don't benefit from Ynnari rules.
I'd stay away from Ynnari if you ask me.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Am I underestimating something or downplaying one of the new ynnari strengths? I keep building ynnari lists trying to make a melee-centric list that feels like it benefits from jumping through ynnari hoops, and I generally end up feeling like I broke even at best.

Who says ynnari is any good though? Can you point out any benefits for shooty units that make shoot ynnari viable? H2h ynnari losing to non-ynnari eldar variants in h2h just shows ynnari is bad as a whole.

GW factions aren't balanced so it's no surprise for ynnari to be at best in h2h yet be worse than non-ynnary harlequin/eldar/dark eldar. That's GW balance for you.

Coven units are just about the only Aeldari unit that you wouldn't mind getting charged rather than being the charge-er. And they can't be Ynnari.

Wyches will enjoy getting to swing first in the opponents turn, but they don't have any problems hitting, so the second half of the buff is fairly useless to them. And besides, the possibilities for +1S and morale immunity, or +1 attack in the first round, etc. Are better. The re-roll wounds strat / power could be good for their weight of dice, though.

Kabalites don't want to enter melee, so you're better keeping them in a Drukhari detachment.

The one possible niceness for Drukhari is the ability to mix Wyches and Kabalites in a single detachment, and to still get a small bonus. Succubus, <YNNARI HQ>, 3 Wych mobs, and Ravagers to proc SFD during the shooting phase might be a nice cheap battalion, for example.

Most Craftworld melee units aren't that great... Shining Spears are about it. And if they don't get the charge, their Lances become a little useless, so they'd rather be Saim Hann for the strat.

Wraithblades have been tossed around as a possible option, but they're pretty overcosted for what they bring.

Yvraine and the Visarch are both DRASTICALLY overcosted atm, and the Yncarne even moreso. The obligation to bring one per detachment is quite grating as well.

I would add Wraithlords. They don't usually see use because there is no way to buff them (not infantry or biker), but in Ynnari they can brofist things on 2+, re-rolling 1's from Spiritseer (who's aura is not doctrine dependant) and get 5++ against shooting and close combat attacks, as well as re-rolling all wounds in close combat. They can even make use of strange 1CP stratagem when degraded into worse WS by killing something with flamers and getting another +1 to hit.

Basically as Craftworlds player I was wondering about Spearhead of Yvraine + 3 Wraithlords. They all move 8 and so you can just put her into a triangle of Wraithlords, activate 5++ and go in.

But that's just couch-hammer. Overall I don't find Ynnari attractive to play in any way.

The Wraithseer benefits quite à bit and reavers are much better as Ynnari.

Ynnari seem almost purpose-built to be awful now.

All melee focused armies are fekkeing awful, this edition like the last two is focused on shooting.

Elite melee players just face an up hill struggle that's not worth it.

hobojebus wrote:
All melee focused armies are fekkeing awful, this edition like the last two is focused on shooting.

Elite melee players just face an up hill struggle that's not worth it.

In this edition, its better for an Aeldari army to keep the enemy at arm's length,
unless you play Grotesques, Taloi, or Shining Spears.
Aspect Warriors and Harlies with their T3 are not durable enough in cc.

 vipoid wrote:
Ynnari seem almost purpose-built to be awful now.

This.

New Ynnari rules are essentially squatting the faction without having to admit to all the people who bought the triumvirate box that they wasted their money.

The idea behind faction way they continue to implement it never could have worked because you are giving same series of boni to three different factions. And the moment anything new for any Eldar faction comes out you have to backtrack and re-balance Ynnari.

The only trustworthy way to make Ynnari is to copypaste all units from codices which can be Ynnari and build a new Codex out of them (i.e. Ynnari Banshees, Ynnari Wyches, Ynnari Troupes) with its own prices.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The idea behind faction way they continue to implement it never could have worked because you are giving same series of boni to three different factions. And the moment anything new for any Eldar faction comes out you have to backtrack and re-balance Ynnari.

It would have been difficult. However, they could have at least tried for a bonus that wasn't worthless for basically every character (including the Ynnari ones), and every single DE unit from turn 3 onwards. Likewise, they could have given the Yncarne an aura that isn't worthless for every single Dark Eldar unit.

As an example, if Soulburst gave +1 to Wound instead of +1 to hit, virtually every (melee) Eldar, DE and Harlequin unit would be able to make use of it.

They could also have not mandated that every Ynnari detachment include one of the godawful special characters. But apparently you're not even allowed to build a Ynnari list without juming over several spiked hurdles.

 Shadenuat wrote:
The only trustworthy way to make Ynnari is to copypaste all units from codices which can be Ynnari and build a new Codex out of them (i.e. Ynnari Banshees, Ynnari Wyches, Ynnari Troupes) with its own prices.

This is exactly what I was hoping they'd do. But apparently even pressing Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V several times is too much effort for GW designers. Hence why we're instead stuck with the mess of 'If you include one of these special characters in a detachment then you can choose to make it a special Ynnari detachment which means that some of the rules are replaced by other rules and some keywords are replaced by other keywords, any units get the Ynnari bonus instead of their normal bonus except on these specific units which are Ynnari without actually being Ynnari and this unit that is Ynnari without actually being Ynnari unless you spend 2CP on a stratagem to make them Ynnari.'

Well, I really don't understand Phil Kelly at al.
The whole effort to release a new Ynnari (index) codex.
The codex goes definitely in the wrong direction.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I really don't understand Phil Kelly at al.
The whole effort to release a new Ynnari (index) codex.
The codex goes definitely in the wrong direction.

Thas because he hadnt been writung rules for a few years now.

I was very happy when I heard that they want to rework them, finally balanced Ynnari that will unlock other builds, make units that are unplayable seen on the tables. Force players into bad spoot trying to build their armies. But instead what was released reeks on fear, GW were so afraid to release decent rules that they intentionally tried to make one more bad faction. Instead of trying to use it like opportunity they allowed fear to control them and stop their imagination. When I look at the new Ynnari I see the necrons and space wolfs design, to many restrictions, to many filler stratagems and relics. It`s like we needed to give 17 stratagems, so leds make from the 11 unique 2 totally useless and 7 situational. Led`s try to make them take infantry army, but don`t provide not single one movement stratagem, bonus or trick. Strengt from death? wtf is that CWE can run circles around the Ynnari and 4 pts infantry is 3 times faster than soulbursting aeldar.
I don`t understand why people are happy with the Ynnari rework. It only destroy my believe that GW will be able to make cool factions like necrons and space wolfs decent. Sad it looks to me GW are able to create or totally busted rules or below average rules, rules that need to be addressed as soon as possible. I`m sure most of the testers suggested to at least lower the points of the named characters, but no dice elder need to have the most over coasted characters in the game.
Even from lore prospective GW messed up, don`t allow single named character to be included in Ynnari army, hello Eldrad created Ynnari, Prince Yriel was revived by them, Jain Zar joined them. You have to pay extra to include one of the most thematic Ynnari units the Incubi.
Fail in every direction, the smell of fear is to strong in the may2019 white dwarf.

 vipoid wrote:
As an example, if Soulburst gave +1 to Wound instead of +1 to hit, virtually every (melee) Eldar, DE and Harlequin unit would be able to make use of it.

That's like doubling every unit's Strength - free Empower for everyone. Shining Spears with re-roll would wound anything in the game 75% of the time. Could have been one of the Revenant powers though.

Marin 775926 10459162 wrote:
I don`t understand why people are happy with the Ynnari rework.

People seem to like it. From what I understand people are happy that grey knight are bad now, because they were good 10 years or so ago. Hard to argue with something people like. I hate football for example, but most people in the world seem to think it is the sport of gods. Probably the best way to deal with it is either by playing a faction that can be played as many differen't things or that can be played in different GW games. If khorn demons are bad in w40k, then maybe they are good in AoS. Inari eldar are bad, maybe normal CWE are good.

 Shadenuat wrote:
That's like doubling every unit's Strength

That's simply not true.

S3 vs. T3 wounds on a 4+. Soulburst would make it wound on a 3+ instead. That's the equivalent of +1 strength, not doubling strength.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Shining Spears with re-roll would wound anything in the game 75% of the time.

Wow, so a melee unit might be good in melee. God forbid.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Could have been one of the Revenant powers though.

In other words, let's just keep Ynnari as useless garbage.

I see the new Ynnari being quite gak for what they are. However, I think that this is an interim codex until they realize what they want to do with the Aeldari factions; a stop gap measure if you will as Ynnari were very dominant in the tournament scene.

The big problem with the Aeldaris that GW needs to decide on where they want to take the story with them, and when that happens we will see an expansion of what the Aeldari are and their evolution.These days it seems GW only does new stuff as long as they justify it with some "plot progression".

That's the equivalent of +1 strength

+1 to Wound rolls means any Strength wounds anything on 5+ regardless of Toughness.

Effectively depending on Toughness it's more like +2 Strength to everyone. Shining Spear with S7 would wound Knight on 5+, with +1 to Wound on 4+. Wraithlord with Ghost Glaive wounds Knight on 3+, with +1 on 2+ meaning instead of S9 he strikes at S16, etc.

So it all depends, but I'd say - too salty.

I'd be happy with +1S on everyone though. I find it fits many Eldar flawlessly, turning them from "we can't even wound 4 ppm Guardsmen right" to "hey we actually can do our job now without extra hundred points or two of buffs stacked on us".

Ynnari have received an absolute beating and are no longer worth playing, as far as I can see. That's quite sad, even given their recent dominance.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I see the new Ynnari being quite gak for what they are. However, I think that this is an interim codex until they realize what they want to do with the Aeldari factions; a stop gap measure if you will as Ynnari were very dominant in the tournament scene.

The big problem with the Aeldaris that GW needs to decide on where they want to take the story with them, and when that happens we will see an expansion of what the Aeldari are and their evolution.These days it seems GW only does new stuff as long as they justify it with some "plot progression".

Or rather they write up what model designers do. GW is models first, rest comes from them company.

 Shadenuat wrote:

That's the equivalent of +1 strength

+1 to Wound rolls means any Strength wounds anything on 5+ regardless of Toughness.

Effectively depending on Toughness it's more like +2 Strength to everyone. Shining Spear with S7 would wound Knight on 5+, with +1 to Wound on 4+. Wraithlord with Ghost Glaive wounds Knight on 3+, with +1 on 2+ meaning instead of S9 he strikes at S16, etc.

So it all depends, but I'd say - too salty.

I'd be happy with +1S on everyone though. I find it fits many Eldar flawlessly, turning them from "we can't even wound 4 ppm Guardsmen right" to "hey we actually can do our job now without extra hundred points or two of buffs stacked on us".

I'd be perfectly happy with +1 strength. I just want something that isn't worthless on all characters and DE units.

I think the only thing Ynnari is really missing aside from that is a movement buff. Maybe Storm of Whispers could be replaced with something more along the lines of Warptime?

If I was really dreaming, I'd suggest that Ynnari could get an artefact that gives an Infantry-character 14" movement and Fly.

The main issue is that Ynnari (apart from the triumvierate) isn't really a faction, since it doesn't have its own models. It's really just an alternative chapter tactic/WL trait/relic/stratagem pool.
And as is usually the case, one chapter tactic is much better than the others. Ynnari is pretty bad, just like Iyanden is pretty bad. If you play CWE units, you always have the option to run them as Alaitoc instead of any other Craftword/Ynnari.

In order to work, Ynnari would need to either have special units, or ways to make the different books interact with one another. Tuning the faction bonus will usually just make it switch from garbage to auto-take (again, like Alaitoc), unless GW magically finds a way to balance chapter tactics, which usually isn't the case.

Ynnari have 3 overcosted characters and you have to take one per detachment. This is bad. Yvraine isn't too bad imo (10-15 points maybe), but the Visarch is more like 30-40, and the Yncarne could go down 80~ and still not, to my mind at least, be an overpowered auto-take.

Strength from Death is not an especially powerful ability and you have to activate it. If you are fluffing your dice rolls and nothing dies (which will happen from time to time) you don't get the bonus. This is bad.

They have a set of serviceable stratagems, warlord traits, relics and spells - but nothing that is obviously better or game changing versus what Eldar can take already (even with the FAQ nerf to cross-soup psychic). This is okay, but there isn't really an obvious reason why you would even want one Ynnari detachment, never mind a whole army.

All in, I think you can make a fun fluffy army containing slightly improved units you don't typically see if that your thing. It isn't however going to be as good as going with the usual Aeldari suspects - and I don't think is going to meaningfully trouble the competitive meta.

Tyel wrote:
Ynnari have 3 overcosted characters and you have to take one per detachment. This is bad. Yvraine isn't too bad imo (10-15 points maybe), but the Visarch is more like 30-40, and the Yncarne could go down 80~ and still not, to my mind at least, be an overpowered auto-take.

Strength from Death is not an especially powerful ability and you have to activate it. If you are fluffing your dice rolls and nothing dies (which will happen from time to time) you don't get the bonus. This is bad.

They have a set of serviceable stratagems, warlord traits, relics and spells - but nothing that is obviously better or game changing versus what Eldar can take already (even with the FAQ nerf to cross-soup psychic). This is okay, but there isn't really an obvious reason why you would even want one Ynnari detachment, never mind a whole army.

All in, I think you can make a fun fluffy army containing slightly improved units you don't typically see if that your thing. It isn't however going to be as good as going with the usual Aeldari suspects - and I don't think is going to meaningfully trouble the competitive meta.

You hit the nail on the head - The issue is the characters. If the Yncarne was priced at like 210-220. The army would be playable.

Tyel wrote:
Ynnari have 3 overcosted characters and you have to take one per detachment. This is bad. Yvraine isn't too bad imo (10-15 points maybe), but the Visarch is more like 30-40,

You're more generous than I am. Frankly, you could halve the Visarch's cost and I'd still have to think twice about using him.

Tyel wrote:
All in, I think you can make a fun fluffy army containing slightly improved units you don't typically see if that your thing. It isn't however going to be as good as going with the usual Aeldari suspects - and I don't think is going to meaningfully trouble the competitive meta.

I think if they wanted it to be a fluffy army, they should have removed the character requirements. They're completely unnecessary and are nothing more than a middle-finger to anyone wanting to play Ynnari.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You hit the nail on the head - The issue is the characters. If the Yncarne was priced at like 210-220. The army would be playable.

Again, I think the requirement to include one of the Ynnari characters in every detachment is entirely unnecessary to begin with.

I see why they have the requirement considering how tiny the Ynnari are as a faction. They really should have remembered that you're forced to take them as much as you are though.