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Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






How exactly does demon summoning work in regards to list building? I understand the actual process of using the special rule (or incursion) and rolling 3d6 (or 4d6), but do I have to spend the reinforcement points on a specific unit or do I allocate an amount of points to reinforcements and then choose what unit to summon before or after rolling the dice?

I haven't played in a year and I recall that when I played last year (maybe I'm thinking of AoS) there were no reinforcement points being used.

I want to utilized demonic summoning but I'm not sure if it's really all that practical.

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You can summon whatever you want (given the usual keyword restrictions) as long as you've got enough spare points in your list.

Edit: and I believe you choose the unit you're summoning after the roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 18:12:06


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Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






craggy wrote:
You can summon whatever you want (given the usual keyword restrictions) as long as you've got enough spare points in your list.

Edit: and I believe you choose the unit you're summoning after the roll.


Okay, thanks.

Does anyone know which demons might be useful for summoning purposes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 19:07:12


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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Kharneth wrote:
craggy wrote:
You can summon whatever you want (given the usual keyword restrictions) as long as you've got enough spare points in your list.

Edit: and I believe you choose the unit you're summoning after the roll.


Okay, thanks.

Does anyone know which demons might be useful for summoning purposes?


The main reason to summon is because you don't have to choose in advance what you're bringing. So you can a big range of Daemons ready to go, and just see what you need in the moment.

If you don't want to collect a big range of Daemons, you're probably better off just adding Daemons to your army normally, especially if you can fit in a Battalion for all the extra CP you'll earn, some of which you can use for deep striking your Daemons into battle.
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Stux wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
craggy wrote:
You can summon whatever you want (given the usual keyword restrictions) as long as you've got enough spare points in your list.

Edit: and I believe you choose the unit you're summoning after the roll.


Okay, thanks.

Does anyone know which demons might be useful for summoning purposes?


The main reason to summon is because you don't have to choose in advance what you're bringing. So you can a big range of Daemons ready to go, and just see what you need in the moment.

If you don't want to collect a big range of Daemons, you're probably better off just adding Daemons to your army normally, especially if you can fit in a Battalion for all the extra CP you'll earn, some of which you can use for deep striking your Daemons into battle.


What I want is to ritually summon daemons like how chaos does in the lore. Buncha marines jump down on a planet and do chaos-y stuff and then daemons pour from the warp.

What are some good places to start? Flamers seem to be very good for their cost. I was thinking about saving 150 points in my 1,000 point list, 200 pts for my 1,500 point list, and 250 points for my 2,000 point list. I'm a bit unsure what sorts of demon units I might be most likely to use and which are actually viable as being summoned.

I own 30 pink horrors, 50 blue & brimstone, 3 flamers, an exalted flamer, 3 screamers, and 50 bloodletters. I was thinking about picking up the Nurgle collector's box, but I'm wondering if it might be better if I just get a couple boxes of plaguebearers instead since I worry only 10 wouldn't be good.

Does the Greater Possessed +1S to demons buff work on real demons? It seems to imply it is only usable on legionnaires who are also demonic.

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Made in gb
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I don't see any reason you can't fluff the Denizens of the Warp stratagem as ritual summoning.

But if you're set on using the Summoning rules then fair enough.

With the Daemons you own, you'll want to make sure you have all the relevant Chaos marks covered for characters in your army, as you can only summon the Daemons of a god if you have their mark.
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch





The main problem with summoning is the move restrictions. I have use summoning several times (mostly flamers which are really good) and the move restrictions are a real issue. Also most daemons work so much better with a herald so usually better to bring as patrol or such.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







As a returning player (I last played back before the plastic plaguebearers came out and the whole army deep struck), it’s hard to get used to the new summoning mechanics.

If you want anything summoned to charge, it’s looking at 9’s at best. Summoned flamers are going to be in range to shoot, but ...

The case I can see for summoning is that if you have Horrors and you’ve put points in reserves for splitting, you’re likely to run into situations where you’d be better off letting that unit get killed off and spend the points on something else.
   
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 solkan wrote:


The case I can see for summoning is that if you have Horrors and you’ve put points in reserves for splitting, you’re likely to run into situations where you’d be better off letting that unit get killed off and spend the points on something else.


That's a pretty good idea!

So take a Tzeentch detachment in your army, teleport in with Denizens of the warp. Also hold back the points for Blue Horrors/Brimstones. But if in the game you decide you don't want to split, you can use the points to summon something else.
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Use a master of possession to move in the movement phase, use warptime on him if necessary, then cast incursion, to summon in the psychic phase. Dont give him a mark of chaos, so he can summon whatever he wants to.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/09 08:10:30


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 xeen wrote:
The main problem with summoning is the move restrictions. I have use summoning several times (mostly flamers which are really good) and the move restrictions are a real issue. Also most daemons work so much better with a herald so usually better to bring as patrol or such.


I've found the cult armies (i.e. DG and TS) take to the summoning much better due to the plethora of support characters that can be used for the ritual. Normal CSMs only have their HQs which sometimes you don't want standing still.



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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

You can take a R&H Battalion for ca. 220pts, with four Characters who don't want to move anyway.

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You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






So, a couple things:

1) My legion is undivided; meaning they all have the mark of chaos undivided, which no longer exists but the point is they are not taking marks of chaos.
2) To use denizens of the warp requires a demon detachment which is not something I want, nor is the stratagem something that interests me; been there, done that.
3) I have a master of possessions who'll be using Incursion to summon with 4d6 in the psychic phase with no threat of mortal wounds.

I do also plan to take a sorcerer, possibly with warptime.

Can someone verify that undivided marines can summon demons? As I understand it, if you have a mark you can only summon demons of that mark's deity, but if you are undivided than you can summon from any deity. Also, I've read that you must declare the deity you are summoning from prior to rolling the dice but can then select the unit from that deity afterwards.

Are Pink Horrors any good? They seem to barely be psykers and I'm unsure if their shooting potential is useful. I could use a unit of Horrors mixed with Cursed Earth from the master for a 3+ invul save and use them as forward objective grabber.

I think I've got the point of Bloodletters and Daemonettes.... vs elite and vs horde respectively. Plaguebearers are simple in that they are tough to kill.

What are some demon units that I should plan on getting because they are generally/universally good and/or complement chaos space marines well? I was considering buying Wrath and Rapture, and then a box of start collecting demons of Nurgle. But I wonder if I might be better served just getting 4 greater demons and 4x30 lesser demons.

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Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

Undivided can summon ANY daemon if the roll is high enough and I am completely unaware of any rule compelling you to declare anything at all before you roll.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Excommunicatus wrote:
Undivided can summon ANY daemon if the roll is high enough and I am completely unaware of any rule compelling you to declare anything at all before you roll.


Battlescribe's rule Demonic Ritual says as such. I wont bother quoting since I have neither experience nor the actual rules, so you can check for yourself next time you're inclined.

Also, I am rather intrigued by this R&H idea. I like the fluff of having traitor guardsmen with my chaos space marines and I think it might be a nice complement to the force. I've heard their rules are not as good as the loyalists (what else is new!) but having some immobile guardsmen commanders who may or may not implode into the warp would be lots of fun!

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 Kharneth wrote:

Are Pink Horrors any good? They seem to barely be psykers and I'm unsure if their shooting potential is useful. I could use a unit of Horrors mixed with Cursed Earth from the master for a 3+ invul save and use them as forward objective grabber.


Pinkies are good if you have more than 20, you can buff them with flickering flames, boon of change, and a herald of tzeentch. You cant give pinkies a 3+ inv. Cursed earth only works with <LEGION> DAEMONS. Pinkies dont have the <LEGION> keyword. There is no way to give pinkies a 3+ inv.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 14:07:54


 
   
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Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 p5freak wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:

Are Pink Horrors any good? They seem to barely be psykers and I'm unsure if their shooting potential is useful. I could use a unit of Horrors mixed with Cursed Earth from the master for a 3+ invul save and use them as forward objective grabber.


Pinkies are good if you have more than 20, you can buff them with flickering flames, boon of change, and a herald of tzeentch. You cant give pinkies a 3+ inv. Cursed earth only works with <LEGION> DAEMONS. Pinkies dont have the <LEGION> keyword. There is no way to give pinkies a 3+ inv.


I'm looking for some demons that would be useful that fit within 100-150 points (including any additional things, such as the herald) to be summoned. Since I need to invest points into whatever I'm summoning I can't actually take too much.

Right now, I'm looking at:

Master of Possession - Incursion, 1 other spell
Chaos Sorcerer - Prescience, 1 other spell (likely warptime)
10 CSM - 2 Autocannons
10 CSM - 2 Heavy Bolters (considering swapping for plasma)
10 Cultists
2 Obliterators (perhaps a 3rd)

With the 3rd Oblit, I have ~100 points left over, which is a weird amount due to the cost of demons. I'd only be able to summon a unit of 10 or Flamers or something non-rank-and-file. I can omit the 3rd Oblit, which is probably smart if I'm not going to take the invigorating spell on the MoP. That'd leave me with 200+ points, so I could summon 30ish Pinks and perhaps even have some points left for blues and brimstones. I was kind of thinking bloodletters or demonettes would be more useful as a counter-melee unit, but regardless, I am worried that taking 800 points in 1,000 points is too few to leave for reinforcements, especially since those obliterators won't be entering the field until turn 2 or 3.

Thoughts?

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Made in gb
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Honestly, 100 to 150 pts of Daemons is not going to do very much. Daemons being effective relies on big units and overlapping buffs.

As such, I don't really think it matters what kind of Daemon unit you bring at those kind of points.
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

150pts is enough for twenty Daemonettes with an Instrument and a Banner.

They're not going to wreck face, but they'll be far from useless.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Excommunicatus wrote:
150pts is enough for twenty Daemonettes with an Instrument and a Banner.

They're not going to wreck face, but they'll be far from useless.


Yeah, I'm not expecting them to wreck face.

We're talking about a 1,000 point force. So it's simply unrealistic for me to take in 250 pts of demons. Perhaps I could omit the Obliterators and upgrade my autocannons to lascannons so then I can invest more into demons.

Would 750 points out of 1,000 points with 250 reinforcement points be useful? Theoretically, I could summon a massive unit and a herald to accompany them, though I'm not sure how I'd manage summoning both (perhaps demonic ritual with the sorcerer and incursion with MoP).

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Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
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 Excommunicatus wrote:
150pts is enough for twenty Daemonettes with an Instrument and a Banner.

They're not going to wreck face, but they'll be far from useless.


Oh for sure, I don't think it's useless entirely. It's just that you aren't going to see a huge amount of difference in performance between say Daemonettes or Bloodletters at that level.
   
Made in us
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Honestly, for 70 to 140 or so points, I think the primary effectiveness of a unit of 10-20 whatever daemon troops is to put a troop unit down securing an objective. Or just being able to threaten that you're going to do that.

Suddenly a harmless character unit you've got hiding behind a ruin becomes something that the other player has to deal with, instead of concentrating on your other units.

   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






It's kind of frustrating that the master of possession cannot buff any of the demons that it summons. Maybe I should be looking at a 1,500 point list anyway since everyone seems to play 1,500, 1,850, and 2,000.

In 1,500 points, how many points would you leave open? I believe it's roughly 270-280 reinforcement points to have room for any full lesser demon unit + herald or a greater demon. Should that be the number I try to leave out?

I'm also unsure about the legion trait. I had planned to go Alpha Legion, but have recently heard that the Red Corsairs are good and I would love to take 3x10 CSMs. The thing I'm unsure about is whether I'd really need all of those command points. I feel like the only ones I used to use were Veterans and the attack again Khorne one.

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Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
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I don't know what your local group is like, but round here 2k is very much considered a 'proper' game, and anything less is considered undersized (though we do sometimes like to play it, it is fun).

Anyway, there's not really a standard summoning pool, as summoning is generally considered very poor. Sorry to keep harping on about it but you really want to be able to drop a big unit with some buff characters to support and that's much more viable with Denizens. Sorry!

That aside, I wouldn't make your summoning pool too big, as you want to be confident you can get as much of it onto the board where you need as soon as you need it. I wouldn't go above about 400pts max, and even that I'd only consider for more casual games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 19:19:27


 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

20 bloodletters are 140 pts. (PL8), 150 with instrument for +1 to the charge roll, and they are pretty good on their own, without additional buffs. A roll of 8 with 4 dice when using incursion shouldnt be a problem. But you need to roll an 8 on the charge, without re-rolls.

Its hard to say how many points should be put aside, because almost no one plays with summoning. Red corsairs are good because you can use a mini battalion for 315 pts, and it gives you 8CP. They have a 3CP stratagem which allows you to remove a unit of CSM and set it up again at full strength, like tide of traitors for cultists. This works best when you use CSM units of 15 or 20 models.
   
Made in us
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 Stux wrote:
I don't know what your local group is like, but round here 2k is very much considered a 'proper' game, and anything less is considered undersized (though we do sometimes like to play it, it is fun).

Anyway, there's not really a standard summoning pool, as summoning is generally considered very poor. Sorry to keep harping on about it but you really want to be able to drop a big unit with some buff characters to support and that's much more viable with Denizens. Sorry!

That aside, I wouldn't make your summoning pool too big, as you want to be confident you can get as much of it onto the board where you need as soon as you need it. I wouldn't go above about 400pts max, and even that I'd only consider for more casual games.


Any points value is proper. I've seen a lot of them playing 1,500 points, though I'm not sure why. And tournaments are generally either 1,850 or 2,000.

Denizens doesn't work on its own, it only works if you take a detachment. So 1) you're looking at either investing in a lot of demon units or you're looking at investing in a detachment that isn't going to provide any CP (negative CP since you're using CP to denizens a unit that didn't even generate CP), and 2) you aren't going to have the versatility of selecting your unit mid-game and will instead be simply deep striking a unit. Deep striking a unit that you paid to take is entirely different from summoning a unit of demons that you decided to take after a game has already begun.

You can keep giving me the same advice over and over again, but it's not what I'm asking.

You say 400 points is max, or perhaps too much. I'm assuming that's 400 out of 2,000, which is 20%. With that rationale, I'd assuming 200 points in a 1,000 point list is about as much as I'd be looking to invest in reinforcements, which feels about right.

I understand that taking a big unit is the best due to how their buffs work and that bringing a herald is "better". Honestly, I've never found the herald useful with my bloodletter bomb as the herald ends up out of range by the time combat starts anyway, but I have no experience with the other demons. Also, I'm not sure why we keep talking about lesser demons as I've continuously been asking about the others. Skullcrushers, flamers, etc. Such units do not cost 250 points and do not need to be huge in order to be effective. Are screamers any good in 40k? I'm trying to figure out which demon units are useful and which are not useful. I'm also considering the Keeper of Secrets as its much easier to summon. 240 reinforcement points might work in a 1,500 point list and would leave room for a large unit or MSU depending on the situation.

I don't have 2,000 points and I'm not looking to spend another $200 right now, so what would your gaming community recommend for me? That I just don't play until I buy twice the guys I've already bought? Does your community never do 1,000 point tournaments? Or double's tournaments where each player brings a 1,000 point list for 2v2?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 19:34:01


Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
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I didn't mean the points level stuff to be confrontational in any way, it just sounded like you were asking for advice on what point level to aim for. As I say, 2k is the standard 'full size' game. But if you posted in our group saying "anyone want a 1k game this week" there's always someone up for it.

Final thought on Daemon detachment - you can take 30 Bloodletters with Skulltaker and a Bloodmaster for 350 points and it will earn you enough CP to deep strike them all. You can have them all arrive simultaneously, no random chance to spoil it.

If you're looking for optimisation, the Daemonic beasts are all quite underwhelming in my opinion. Lesser Daemons are good in big numbers. Greater Daemons are pretty good too. Most of the rest are quite meh. They're just too easy to kill for their points in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding summoning in a 1k list, if you're going 200 it's probably worth stretching to 210, so you have the points for 3 minimum troop units. As pointed out above, dropping some troops on objectives is probably about the best use for summoning.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 20:21:41


 
   
Made in ca
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Rzhev

At 1K, I probably wouldn't go beyond twenty Daemons, preferably with a Banner and an Instrument, so depending on which Daemons that's between 145 and 165pts.

Summoned units don't get ObSec so their value as an Objective holder is, IMO, dubious.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in gb
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 Excommunicatus wrote:
At 1K, I probably wouldn't go beyond twenty Daemons, preferably with a Banner and an Instrument, so depending on which Daemons that's between 145 and 165pts.

Summoned units don't get ObSec so their value as an Objective holder is, IMO, dubious.


Oh good point... Yeah, they need to be in a detachment to get ObSec. Nevermind.
   
Made in ca
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Rzhev

Ok, so... I'm a Slaanesh fanboy so all I can talk about with even a veneer of authority is Slaanesh...

A single KoS will likely get shot off the board in the first turn.

A Daemon Prince might not be a bad choice. For less than 200pts they're a lot more survivable than Greater Daemon and can wreck face by themselves. Syll'Esske is good, but much better with a Daemonette horde to lead.

Fiends are decent but squishy and really only work as part of a combo-punch with Seekers or Chariots or both. If you take them, you need something to charge into melee alongside them to do the lifting.

Daemonettes are just great. You should take twenty of them. With an Instrument. And a Banner.

Seekers are great, too. Fast and choppy. Squishy.

Hellflayers are decent, but again they're squishy and require support.

Ditto Seeker Chariots.

Soul Grinders are bad.

Zarakynel is bad.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
 
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