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1) Unit Analysis: Pretty straight forward. It's just discussing a single unit more or less in a vacuum and what it seems to be capable of.
2) Detachment Analysis: This gets a bit into list building but I think is actually the most useful way to talk about tactics in Apoc. Because detachments are issued an order and move and act together it's really more about the synergy between units acting as some kind of super unit where Apocs strategy building really comes into play. Something that is okay on it's own could become amazing in the right detachment being issued the right orders.
3) Army List Analysis: Get those detachments together into a whole list and lets see what we can do with them.
4) Command Assets/Deck Building: What cards are you bringing and why?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is how I will start this off.
Detachment: Patrol
HQ Swarmlord -12
Troops Hormagaunts 30 -7 Hormagaunts 30 -7
Elite Venomthropes 3 -4 Tyrant Guard 3 -5
Total PL: 35
The Swarmlord and Hormagaunts are MEAN. Very few units can put out 12 attacks. The Hormagaunts will do it rerolling 1s. Very few Characters can put out 5 attacks. Thw Swarmlord does 5 hitting on 2+ with 4 of them being Destroyer. As much as it is semi wasted put the Force card in your deck. It's a psychic power that allows the psyker to make all their melee attacks Destroyer and add +3 to wound rolls meaning the SL would wound SAP/SAT 3+. Use it to annihilate a unit guaranteed.
The venomthropes provide the whole detachment with stealth (-1 to hit with ranged) and the Tyrant gaurd will keep that SL alive so much longer.
In bigger games this would be a Vangaurd Detachment instead with 2 Tyrant guard units. (don't bring 1 6 model unit. Bring 2 3 model units. That way they can pull 2-6 blast markers off the swarmlord each turn and force the enemy to split fire to get rid of them instead of 1 6 model unit which will survive longer but only pull 1-3 blast markers off the SL.) This detachment wants to assault always. Bring Adrenal Glands too. If your lucky enough to draw it early the Hormagaunts and SL can move 27" to get themselves into melee ASAP.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 00:34:05
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Unless your running 3 units of gargoyals in an outrider detachment its the only way i would bring a ht with wings.
Nothing in the game can really keep up with them. The walkrant is back imo.
Then i would spec them mostly for melee. Because if your going to move that fast might as well gain protection by getting into fights. With only 2w and no tyrant guard to keep pace i dont think they will survive very long.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i wouldnt bring the termagants in this detachment. The gants cant shoot while the rest of them are assaulting which means everyone else has to slow down to let the gants shoot.
If you want shooting build another gun battery detachment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 01:41:34
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Maybe. I am concerned about the survivability of them. I havent spent any time experimenting with flyrants yet. Ive only brought walkrants to support warriors and a prime or a rear field gun battery with biovores, hiveguard, and exocrine. In both cases the walkrant was able to advance and or aimed fire as needed and got me an extra card.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Look at it this way.
A Hive Tyrant has 2w and a 5+ save.
Getting a blast on it has to do with the weapon, not the Tyrant. So lets assume the player is shooting anti tank weapons at the heavy yeah?
A decent great anti tank weapon wounds on a 4+ a ok one is a 6+ lets for the sake of argument assume it's a 5+ and say there is a 2/3rds chance that a anti tank weapon that hits is going to place a blast.
With 2 successful wounds (average 3 shots anti tank) there is 1 large blast on the Tyrant. It now has a 1/3rd chance to pass a save or loose half it's wounds. This won't critically injure it mind you (you have to have LESS than half to be critical injured. It's actually impossible to critical injure a unit with less than 3 wounds). But it's still important. With 4 successful wound (6 shots) the Hive tyrant has a pretty decent chance of just being dead. With 5 the chance goes up a little, with 6 (9 shots) it's almost a guarantee.
Now let's throw a single unit of Tyrant guard in the mix.
They can remove 1-3 blast markers at the beginning of the damage phase.
To guarantee that the tyrant will have ANY saves to roll you need to get 7 successful wounds (10ish shots). No small feat. Averaging the removal of 2 Blasts and trying to ALMOST guarantee the Tyrant will die the enemy needs to put 10-12 successful wound rolls on the tyrant in a turn (15ish shots). This almost doubles the survivability of the tyrant.
If you have 2 units of Tyrant guard pulling off 2-6 blasts a turn it takes 13 successful wounds to ensure the hive tyrant is rolling a d12 to make a single save. To almost guarantee killing it is 18 wounds (27! shots).
A flyrant is a more expensive tyrant with a DRASTIC cut in it's durability. Tyrant guard are no slouches in melee themselves so it's not like they are ONLY good for soaking wounds. But GOD DAMN are they good at soaking wounds.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 03:56:15
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I dunno if any tyrant guard are gonna live past the first turn. But they are the hottest models on the nid roster for that ability to keep the swarmlord alive. Swarmy is a beast for sure. Much salt about how he now beats Gman .
That said, nids achilles heel is their synapse, and so redundancy and survival are huge deals, and I can't see a game where the swarmlord isn't absorbing as many blast markers as needed to kill him. He's wasted just hiding behind terrain, but so is a tyrant really, there's cheap synapse hiders about already, so I see the tyrant as a dude to kill stuff with, but maybe he isn't the best model for that under apoc rules?
Automatically Appended Next Post: actually reading the hive tyrant in depth, the best, in my estimation, is the dakka tyrant with devourers, and taking multiples of those in deepstrike scenarios is, in my estimation, gonna be pretty strong. Don't use him as a combat platform.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 04:41:11
It all depends on how you build them. The tyrant Biocannons can be great SAT or great SAP depending on which one you grab. If you build it for melee they get as many attacks as the SL but with 1 worse SAT and no destroyer.
But they are psykers and synapse and thats good. If I have a tyrant in a detachment I want it to be the warlord so I draw an extra card. But then it's Heavy and can't get obscured and becomes a big target. Venoms and tyrant guard are the way to bolster that which means you can't have wings. I am sure there is a REALLY good way to use tyrants (for more than their draw 2 cards bit) but I am unsure exactly how you get there just yet. Wings complicate that equation a bit by reducing the number of units they really fit well with.
For instance, if you build them with double devourers then you need to put them in a detachment that is going to be issued advance and aimed fire orders. Is that mawlocs? Probably not. It's most likely gargoyles. If it's supposed to lead and support Mawlocs then you want it built for melee so you can issue it assault orders and get the most out of it.
Tyranid Warriors are GREAT. Not just because their weapons are pretty decent with a good amount of dice to roll but because they are synapse with a lot of wounds. My mobile gun battery is made up of warrior units.
Battalion:
HQ Tyranid Prime Neurothrope
Troops Warriors 6 (2 bio cannons) Warriors 6 (2 bio cannons) Warriors 6 (2 bio cannons)
Chuck in a unit of venomthropes if you can afford it and the neurothrope and prime will have a -2 to hit from ranged.
The entire detachment is synapse and can move and shoot or stay still and get a +1 to hit (making the warriors and prime hit on 2+ with their shooting).
It's a rock solid gun battery with decent to good melee capability if they get charged and can spread out a bit if need be to get the synapse web over a bigger area.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/16 04:59:12
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
didn't the trygon used to be able to transport models? oof that makes termies a little worse. They have such strong short range fire, but not very fast movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bio cannons? You mean venom cannons, or just their base bio weapons?
I've been finding picking the highest rates of fire is actually the way to go in apoc. To the point where some units (like hurrican bolter bikes) are a bit too good. Termies with devourers put out so much pain that really you're looking for a delivery. So, something like two detachments of 60 termies in tyrannocytes (3 of 20 macing out the capacity of 3 cytes) and a flyrant with devourers is the way to go? It is a lot of dakka for fairly cheap
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 05:13:25
If you bring Termagants I feel like you are wasting them if you don't bring devourers. Which gives them a decent range (18") and 9 dice to roll rerolling 1 to wounds. Which means get that Tervigon in there for the rerolling 1s to hit.
Getting at least 1 more unit of 10 Termagants is good. And it has 3 wounds which is nice but only a 6+ save which is a little bit of a bummer.
I would be interested to see how effective a detachment of
Tervigon
Tervigon
Termagant 30 Dev Termagant 30 Dev Termagant 30 Dev
Venomthropes
would do. That costs 54 PL for a mid ranged gun battery putting out a LOT of dakka. If you are lucky enough to spawn a few units and get a hold of that card that lets you shoot twice I think it would be very difficult for any light units in range to survive and maybe even a heavy or 2.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
stratigo wrote: didn't the trygon used to be able to transport models? oof that makes termies a little worse. They have such strong short range fire, but not very fast movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bio cannons? You mean venom cannons, or just their base bio weapons?
I've been finding picking the highest rates of fire is actually the way to go in apoc. To the point where some units (like hurrican bolter bikes) are a bit too good. Termies with devourers put out so much pain that really you're looking for a delivery. So, something like two detachments of 60 termies in tyrannocytes (3 of 20 macing out the capacity of 3 cytes) and a flyrant with devourers is the way to go? It is a lot of dakka for fairly cheap
Yeah trygons can't transport any more. Mixed blessing? You want Trygons to be in melee so transporting shooting units wouldn't mesh with the orders you are issuing.
Yeah Venom cannons or Stranglethorn Cannons.
I dunno man. 6 dice on 20 termies with 4 wounds or 9 dice rerolling 1s with 6 wounds. I would rather have the expensive spawning battery moving and shooting together. And again, if you get into range, aimed fire means hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s and rerolling 1s to wound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 05:23:34
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
stratigo wrote: didn't the trygon used to be able to transport models? oof that makes termies a little worse. They have such strong short range fire, but not very fast movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: bio cannons? You mean venom cannons, or just their base bio weapons?
I've been finding picking the highest rates of fire is actually the way to go in apoc. To the point where some units (like hurrican bolter bikes) are a bit too good. Termies with devourers put out so much pain that really you're looking for a delivery. So, something like two detachments of 60 termies in tyrannocytes (3 of 20 macing out the capacity of 3 cytes) and a flyrant with devourers is the way to go? It is a lot of dakka for fairly cheap
Yeah trygons can't transport any more. Mixed blessing? You want Trygons to be in melee so transporting shooting units wouldn't mesh with the orders you are issuing.
Yeah Venom cannons or Stranglethorn Cannons.
I dunno man. 6 dice on 20 termies with 4 wounds or 9 dice rerolling 1s with 6 wounds. I would rather have the expensive spawning battery moving and shooting together. And again, if you get into range, aimed fire means hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s and rerolling 1s to wound.
the thing is, you could take trygons in their own detachment and not in their units detachment, meaning they can still fight while what they transport shoots. But not to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 05:27:58
Blndmage wrote: I'm a bit confused by the datasheet for them though, as they've got the HQ role, but the sheet talks about taking them as Heavy Support.
Forge World being bad? Unpossible! That's a copypaste error from the Carnifex datasheet, though I guess until it is fixed the unit is borked.
@ BCB in your Battalion with the SL I would combine the 2 venoms into a single 9" stealth bubble unit and take 2 3 model units of Tyrant guard. Being able to pull 2-6 blasts off the SL is much more valuable then having 1 tougher unit that can pull 1-3.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, where did you get the battlescribe files? I have been watching for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 05:46:12
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: @ BCB in your Battalion with the SL I would combine the 2 venoms into a single 9" stealth bubble unit and take 2 3 model units of Tyrant guard. Being able to pull 2-6 blasts off the SL is much more valuable then having 1 tougher unit that can pull 1-3.
I agree with the Tyrant Guard. For the Venoms though the point is to have them split apart so they can cover a larger area and also try and cause overkill (and thus wasted shots) when the opponent tries to clear them.
Lance845 wrote: They can be taken as a single model unit as a HQ or they can be taken as a 1-3 model unit as a Heavy Support.
Why the rippers instead of more hormagaunts?
That's all the Nids I have.
It was my 4th ed list, super Rippers.
A post exterminatus list, at one point it was a 2,000+Point list, it always through folks for a loop.
My goal was to play to a draw(and pulled my fair share of draws too!), but I haven't touched the models since then.
Yeah. I have had great luck with 3 raveners and a red terror as a deep strike detachment. Get in there with lots of attacks and plenty of wounds to stick around.
But lictors? They are all 1 wound with a not great save and only 1 attack. Deathleaper at least has a -1 ld aura for enemies but regular lictors will just get killed having killed noone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @bcb the bigger advantage of splitting up the biovores is you can shoot them at different targets with barrage (catching characters hidden out of los). 1 big unit has to shoot all their shots at a single target.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 16:30:16
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a lictor costs 3 points vs 5 points of raveners. It is also just 1 model which can fit anywhere with DS and still capture objectives.
In defensible terrain they might be nasty because if - 2 to hit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 19:47:22
A unit can point each weapon profile at a different unit. They cannot divide up the shots from a single profile. A unit of biovores has the spore mine launcher. Attacks user. With 1 model the unit has 1a. 2 model 2a. 3 model 3a.
The units profile spore mine launcher with 3 models gets 3 dice they have to fire at a single enemy unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is my 150 PL list.
Some of this is limitations of the models I own, and some of it is making it fit nicely on a 6x4 table.
The Swarm Lord patrol is my melee hammer and distraction. The SL and hormagaunts get in there, tie people up in melee and just murder the crap out of things. This exact detachment has been through several games so far and it's worked great. I am not bringing a 3rd Hormagaunt unit for 2 reasons. 1) it would actually get very difficult to get the SL into fights with that many hormagaunts running around. Just... no room for it up in the front. 2) I only own 60 Hormagaunts. This unit will take heavy fire and I expect to use a lot of defensive cards to keep it ticking. This detachment will always assault.
The Spearhead is both a heavy gun battery and partially a character hunter with the biovores. Neurothrope to babysit with synapse and produce a card draw. This detachment should mostly be aimed firing but might advance if need be.
The vanguard is a deepstriking surgical strike unit. Hit enemies back field. Strike at things the Hormagaunts and SL can't get to yet. I won't deepstrike them turn 1. I will do it on turn 2 or 3 when the swarmlord is in a position to provide them with synapse. All assault all the time.
My second patrol is a mobile gun battery and character hunter. The warriors all have the anti tank cannons and the prime and neurothrope support them both with a card an a +1 to hit aura. (the Neurothrope is the commander because he always rolls a d12 to save and it might keep the prime alive longer). The Hiveguard have the anti personal barrage guns because hunting characters. The warriors are decent in melee if someone tries to assault the unit and can be supported by the hormagaunts if need be. This unit should mostly be advancing, but if they find themselves in a good spot with some good targets then they will aimed fire.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 02:33:42
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
A cool little detachment I used to good effect in my first apoc game: 3x9 spore mines (18PL). Hold them until you draw the kraken triple movement card (easy when you have lots of detachments led by Tyrants) and use it on the spores to give the 9” movement, which lets them drop in a nuke a unit of choice within 12”. Very nice.
That is probably the best use of spores since nothing makes them any more. Adrenal glands would also give them tripple move. Despite their utter crap save having 2 wounds gives them some measure of durability too since they auto pass morale tests. I could see using endless swarm to respawn a unit as a potential good use of the card too.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
.
60PL 
12PL 
