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So I’m reading War of the Fang, which is about the Thousand Sons invading Fenris in revenge for Prospero. It’s mostly told from the point of view of the Wolves, and something keeps not making sense to me. There keeps being sentences like “the Wolves hurled themselves at a foe that they had long hated more than there were words to express”.
Why? Keep in mind this is like M33. So there’s been no major conflicts since the burning of Prospero. There was even a bit in the book where they discovered that rubrics, and thus the Thousand Sons, even existed. So do they have this intense hatred because they went to kill them all and the Thousand Sons fought back? Eventually?

Edit: I just got to the bit where an entire army of wizards can’t figure out how to stop one rune priest. What is this book?

Author mixed up Thousand Sons and Word Bearers? :lol:

thats weird. chris wraight is usually pretty solid in his writing.

lore wise, the wolves had animosity with the TS due to prospero..thats basically it.

although if you read wolfsbane, while russ doesnt seem too fussed about knocking magnus the eff out, he consistently expresses regret for what the legion did there, due to being duped by horus.

I think that the bad blood just stayed from that, then became particularly bad when magnus and the TS did kneel to chaos, and threw their lot in with horus

Not read this book but is the pint ever addressed that SW attacked prospero because they were using psykers despite that conference they all had. And then as you point out space wolves have psykers. Does anyone at any pint address there own hypocrisy. Or is it ok cause we know SW are goodies? We know DA secretly kept using psykers but then they didn’t attack others for doing so

mrFickle wrote:
Not read this book but is the pint ever addressed that SW attacked prospero because they were using psykers despite that conference they all had. And then as you point out space wolves have psykers. Does anyone at any pint address there own hypocrisy. Or is it ok cause we know SW are goodies? We know DA secretly kept using psykers but then they didn’t attack others for doing so

From what I understand, the Wolves are in serious denial. They swear up and down that their psykers are all using animal spirits or whatever, unlike every other psyker ever.

mrFickle wrote:
Not read this book but is the pint ever addressed that SW attacked prospero because they were using psykers despite that conference they all had. And then as you point out space wolves have psykers. Does anyone at any pint address there own hypocrisy. Or is it ok cause we know SW are goodies? We know DA secretly kept using psykers but then they didn’t attack others for doing so

Its pointed out many times. Dorn calls russ a hypocrite for it, especially as russ advocated fiercely for the nikaea edict. everyone knows it, but few people do anything about it. malcador mentions russ and the khan both using 'priests' but its ok because they do it wisely. the whole thing is a bit of a joke. as far as im aware.

the only legions who actually follow the edict are the disciplinarian dullards of the ultramarines and imperial fists. not sure about the salamanders, raven guard and iron hands, but everyone else just sacks it off, and before anyone knows it the heresy has broken out, and all rules are out of the window.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:


I think that the bad blood just stayed from that, then became particularly bad when magnus and the TS did kneel to chaos, and threw their lot in with horus

That was another bit that bugged me, forget what the name of the book is, but Ahriman and everyone do their big quest to put Magnus back together, and he goes “thanks for that. So I’ve thought about it, and I think we should join Horus and destroy the Imperium”, and all the Thousand Sons are all “cool. I mean whatever why not?”

Crackedgear wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:


I think that the bad blood just stayed from that, then became particularly bad when magnus and the TS did kneel to chaos, and threw their lot in with horus

That was another bit that bugged me, forget what the name of the book is, but Ahriman and everyone do their big quest to put Magnus back together, and he goes “thanks for that. So I’ve thought about it, and I think we should join Horus and destroy the Imperium”, and all the Thousand Sons are all “cool. I mean whatever why not?”

well i can understand that.. of course theyre going to be bitter. and joining the heresy basically gave them free reign to muck about with sorcery, so why wouldnt you? plus lorgar was cajoling magnus to choose a side since prospero.

mrFickle wrote:
Not read this book but is the pint ever addressed that SW attacked prospero because they were using psykers despite that conference they all had. And then as you point out space wolves have psykers. Does anyone at any pint address there own hypocrisy. Or is it ok cause we know SW are goodies? We know DA secretly kept using psykers but then they didn’t attack others for doing so

It's not really hypocrisy. Most Wolves aren't psykers so take all their knowledge on it from a mix of superstition and their own Rune Priests. Rune Priests do everything through a filter of the same superstition so they genuinely believe they do something different. The Space Wolves are wrong definitely but not hypocrites.

There's also the fact that the Sons were hated so much because of the way they went about their powers as well. They kept pushing the limits regardless of risks, blatantly told their supreme leader to F himself and constantly devolved into monsters which from an outside perspective they were okay with whereas everyone else lived in constant fear of that kind of thing.

Bare in mind that the Thousand Sons do fight back during the Burningof Prospero. Quite a few Space Wolves died and some of those deaths were quite horrible. Regardless of the Thousand Sons intent, the Space Wolves probably had little sympathy after the battle. The subsequent support for Horus later probably encouraged that. The subsequent deaths from the campaign Alpha Legion and the attempt to kill Horus all built on top of that. There’s no reason for Space Wolves not to hate the Thousand Sons even though Magnus did nothing wrong.

People have a very strange idea of nothing wrong...

pm713 wrote:It's not really hypocrisy. Most Wolves aren't psykers so take all their knowledge on it from a mix of superstition and their own Rune Priests. Rune Priests do everything through a filter of the same superstition so they genuinely believe they do something different. The Space Wolves are wrong definitely but not hypocrites.

It makes them ignorant hypocrites instead.

The main fault of the Thousand Sons was, as you said, they went way over the top with their psychic experiments, and refused to listen to any moderating opinions. But Russ hating psykers and using his own, understanding it or not, was still hypocrisy.

At least Mortarion hated his own psykers too. Didn't Angron also hate his psykers, and disband his Librarius?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:It's not really hypocrisy. Most Wolves aren't psykers so take all their knowledge on it from a mix of superstition and their own Rune Priests. Rune Priests do everything through a filter of the same superstition so they genuinely believe they do something different. The Space Wolves are wrong definitely but not hypocrites.

It makes them ignorant hypocrites instead.

The main fault of the Thousand Sons was, as you said, they went way over the top with their psychic experiments, and refused to listen to any moderating opinions. But Russ hating psykers and using his own, understanding it or not, was still hypocrisy.

At least Mortarion hated his own psykers too. Didn't Angron also hate his psykers, and disband his Librarius?

I'd argue that understanding that Rune Priests were psykers is a needed understanding for it to be hypocrisy and on top of that as I recall there was a significant difference between witches (Thousand Sons and co) and the rune priests in that the hatred was based on a lack of restraint and control of the psychic powers.

Didn't Angron also hate his psykers, and disband his Librarius? 

No, he just didn't care. He didn't disband it but didn't support it either. Since every psykers who received the nails died, they didn't get many if any new recruits, and many of them either died in battle or trying to 'shock' angron back into sanity, eventually there were just none left.

Wow. This again. Ok...space wolf players, aka furry-lovers, think Magnus was awful and revel in Russ being a puppet of Horus and act like Russ did nothing wrong and was the victim. Despite being a raging hypocrite about his own psykers.

Thousand Sons lovers generally appreciate the fact that Magnus disobeyed orders but did so in order to try to protect the imperium and by doing so screwed everything up. And accept he was supposed to be punished for it, although the punisher was duped and everything went to crap.

So Russ=gullible hypocrite with anger issues
Magnus=paranoid teenager with daddy issues

I think that about covers it.

pm713 wrote:I'd argue that understanding that Rune Priests were psykers is a needed understanding for it to be hypocrisy and on top of that as I recall there was a significant difference between witches (Thousand Sons and co) and the rune priests in that the hatred was based on a lack of restraint and control of the psychic powers.

Ultramarine psykers were fairly methodical and restrained when it came to their gift, making them far more like Rune Priests than the TS psykers. They still disbanded their psykers. The Space Wolves didn't.

Again, we all know that the main point of the Edict was to curtail the rampant OTT psykers, not the more reasonable ones. However, the severely anti-psyker Primarchs, hypocritically or not, swayed the whole thing to be a condemnation of all psykers. And while Legions like the Fists and Ultramarines followed the rules set down, like it or not, the Wolves didn't. They were most likely ignorant in this, but that still makes them hypocrites in my eyes.

locarno24 wrote:

Didn't Angron also hate his psykers, and disband his Librarius? 

No, he just didn't care. He didn't disband it but didn't support it either. Since every psykers who received the nails died, they didn't get many if any new recruits, and many of them either died in battle or trying to 'shock' angron back into sanity, eventually there were just none left.

I was under the impression that his Librarius were disbanded after Nikea. They were already rare in the Legion due to the Nails, but they were still disbanded as a formal entity.

The Librarians still existed, up until Nuceria, but the Librarius, the organisational entity, ceased to exist long before, because of Nikea.

No, do you really think angron and his legion cared about the edict of nikaea? They just ignored it.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wow. This again. Ok...space wolf players, aka furry-lovers, think Magnus was awful and revel in Russ being a puppet of Horus and act like Russ did nothing wrong and was the victim. Despite being a raging hypocrite about his own psykers.

Thousand Sons lovers generally appreciate the fact that Magnus disobeyed orders but did so in order to try to protect the imperium and by doing so screwed everything up. And accept he was supposed to be punished for it, although the punisher was duped and everything went to crap.

So Russ=gullible hypocrite with anger issues
Magnus=paranoid teenager with daddy issues

I think that about covers it.

I think that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

queen_annes_revenge wrote:No, do you really think angron and his legion cared about the edict of nikaea? They just ignored it.

I don't think they "cared", but they definitely followed it. However, I think that was largely because they'd already disbanded their Librarius - the Edict was just a formality to them.

pm713 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wow. This again. Ok...space wolf players, aka furry-lovers, think Magnus was awful and revel in Russ being a puppet of Horus and act like Russ did nothing wrong and was the victim. Despite being a raging hypocrite about his own psykers.

Thousand Sons lovers generally appreciate the fact that Magnus disobeyed orders but did so in order to try to protect the imperium and by doing so screwed everything up. And accept he was supposed to be punished for it, although the punisher was duped and everything went to crap.

So Russ=gullible hypocrite with anger issues
Magnus=paranoid teenager with daddy issues

I think that about covers it.

I think that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

The truth is dumb? Gotcha. I would ask what you take issue with, but I imagine it’s “everything that doesn’t involve space wolves being awesome and perfect”. We’ve done this dance every time this discussion comes up. No space wolf player will ever accept that their heroes are hypocritical A-holes who think they’re special and can break the rules but nobody else can.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wow. This again. Ok...space wolf players, aka furry-lovers, think Magnus was awful and revel in Russ being a puppet of Horus and act like Russ did nothing wrong and was the victim. Despite being a raging hypocrite about his own psykers.

Thousand Sons lovers generally appreciate the fact that Magnus disobeyed orders but did so in order to try to protect the imperium and by doing so screwed everything up. And accept he was supposed to be punished for it, although the punisher was duped and everything went to crap.

So Russ=gullible hypocrite with anger issues
Magnus=paranoid teenager with daddy issues

I think that about covers it.

I think that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum.

The truth is dumb? Gotcha. I would ask what you take issue with, but I imagine it’s obviously that I am being rude, condescending and the kind of person that keeps people out of a hobby.

Would you like a dictionary so you can remember what truth is?

Guys, if you're going to go back and forth, at least provide evidence to back up your statements, if not that just back out. . It's very boring for everyone else having to trawl through lame arguments like this.

I actually find the whole topic boring. It comes up once a week, everyone gets pissed off at each other and it’s never “decided” amongst the group who is right. The dance has been done to death. However...anyone who actually reads “A Thousand Sons” can see the disrespectful and hypocritical attitudes of the Wolves for themselves. The captains who speak to Magnus like an inferior. The runepriests who tell the psykers why it’s ok what they do, but how bad psykers are. Pick up the book and read. I went into that story being “in favor” of neither side, and came out wishing somebody would just exterminate the Space Wolves.

And yet...I’m not the one twisting a quote and attacking the twisted quote. But if PM is offering to buy me a dictionary, I’d like the most expensive one shipped overnight at his expense!

generally you can;'t deny the space wolves are anything but hipocritical. unless you genuinely belive Russ, not the space wolves but RUSS, didn't know what rune preists really where, something I find absolutely unlikely.

Wolf fans tend to be die hard imho. Which is both a blessing and a curse in these discussions. Then again im making a sweeping generalization so..........

With the exception of supposed rarities (who all the novels are written about) Space Wolves hate everything.

Half the Wolf Lords wanted to kill the Wulfen during Warzone Fenris, pretty savage considering one of the Wolf Lords IS a Wulfen.

1. The SW hate the TS because a) they're tricksy maleficarum b) the SW were tricked into launching a full assault on the TS, so they're a bit conflicted/guilty about it and take it out on the TS.

2. In the Battle of the Fang, and other sources, there are references to the spirit of Fenris, the "world soul". There is something special about Fenris, or the relationship between the SW and their planet. Quite what it is, is not clear. But the Rune Priests are able to tap into it.

Splog wrote:


2. In the Battle of the Fang, and other sources, there are references to the spirit of Fenris, the "world soul". There is something special about Fenris, or the relationship between the SW and their planet. Quite what it is, is not clear. But the Rune Priests are able to tap into it.

I’ve only read Battle of the Fang, so I don’t know about these other sources, but I took all that as sort of a comfortable delusion on the rune priests part. Like how in A Thousand Sons they keep talking about their tutelaries, being cute and benign balls of light that followed them around, until it was revealed that they weren’t. With that in mind, what’s to stop some daemon from going “why yes, I am the spirit of Fenris. Let me help you with that spell.”?

Probably all the anti-chaos talismans like Seal-tags, runes and wolf-tails they’ve draped themselves in.

So out of curiosity, when a rune priest is casting a spell and rolls two 1s, what do you call that?