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A couple of times in there you mention Terminators getting the built-in Transhuman Physiology bonus; it actually applies to all Deathwing infantry units, including the special characters and Bladeguard Vets. That's huge, as Bladeguard are a pretty solid unit and cheaper than actual Terminators (I think; I don't have the book yet).

Teeth of Terra has some usefulness for a generic bike captain or something (in the event you don't take Sammael for some reason).

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Do you guys think a space marine captain or a chaplain is better on a bike as an aggro CC threat?
Both seam to be able to do similar damage, with slightly different buffing affects to nearby core. Roll with some outriders/ attack bikes

You can set up a Primaris Bike Chaplain to be a nasty beatstick character, but to do it most effectively his litanies will be ones that mainly buff himself. Give him the relic crozius, The Imperium's Sword warlord trait, and the Mantra of Strength as his litany and he'll wreck almost anything he touches. But he gives up his ability to help his friends out to do this. If you want him as a buff machine, probably make him a Master of Sanctity (so he can do double litanies), Wise Orator, and I'm not sure what relic would be best, and choose whichever litanies will best help your list.

The Bike Captain, on the other hand, can be given a wide variety of weapons, including some very nice relics like the Teeth of Terra or the Heavenfall Blade. Not sure a Storm Shield is worth it on him anymore (although a 2+ save is nice). And his aura always buffs any CORE stuff around him, which is nice. He also has a good selection of warlord traits that can either buff him or guys around him and could take a Chapter Master upgrade (if you don't have Azrael in the same list).

Honestly, it's not super easy to choose between the two, as both have their uses. They do different things, so you should take whichever one would most benefit your list. Personally I prefer Sammael to a regular Bike Captain, but if you were running Successors for some reason (which isn't as terrible an idea as it sounds, although actual DA are better IMO), you're stuck with the generic guy.

How does everyone feel about the new Storm Speeder? I recently bought one and am very glad that I can make the options swappable without need for magnets (the wing missiles technically shouldn't be there for the Hailstrike/Hammerstrike, but they look so cool and would be a pain to magnetize), and I'm wondering if anyone else is thinking about them or planning to add them to their DA arsenal besides me. The combination of Jink and High-Speed Focus makes me think that DA might be the only chapter in which they are very viable. Kind of a bigger version of our Land Speeder Vengeance, costing more points but having somewhat more firepower.

Putting an Attack Bike with a regular Bike Squad is probably a decent way to go, as they then have ObSec. I wonder about putting a couple of meltaguns on the regular dudes to make them a decent little hunter-killer unit. Then again, at 40 points each for a biker with meltagun, maybe you'd be just as well to take Eradicators, although they are nowhere near as mobile.

I dunno, a big brick of Heavy Intercessors with Azrael giving them rerolls could be decent. Especially since I'm pretty sure they have all the right keywords to use the shoot twice stratagem. I honestly like that idea better than taking the old Hellblaster blob as it's a lot less points.

Rivener wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I dunno, a big brick of Heavy Intercessors with Azrael giving them rerolls could be decent. Especially since I'm pretty sure they have all the right keywords to use the shoot twice stratagem. I honestly like that idea better than taking the old Hellblaster blob as it's a lot less points.

Rapid Fire explicitly allows Intercessors Squads and Veteran Intercessor Squads to shoot twice. Heavy Intercessors may have the Intercessor keyword, but Rapid Fire doesn’t key off of that I’m afraid.

You're absolutely right. Oh well, I still think the idea has merit as 10 T5 3W bodies with a 4++ vs. enemy shooting, getting full rerolls when they shoot, could be nasty.

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.

 addnid wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
If you are just considering storm bolters and power fists, why not relic terminators?

This is actually a good idea if you want a cheap obsec terminator unit. 5 of them with LC/SB are priced to move (170 points for 5 dudes) and still have decent damage output against horde-type stuff like Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts, etc. This is actually something I want to try, as I have a Tartaros squad sitting around (mine actually have a Reaper cannon and Plasma Blaster, but those are cheap upgrades). The only downside is lack of access to either Teleport Homers or a Watcher in the Dark, but I'm not sure that's a deal breaker.

Not having even one storm shield means your squad is exposed to low ap threats, I think that is rather bad. Depends on your meta I guess

Being as it's a cheap unit, if you lose them it doesn't hurt as much. That's the whole idea with Relic Termies IMO. Definitely put some TH/SS in the squad if you're running CMLs or something (probably just a couple because hopefully that unit is near Azrael for the 4++). Also, Inner Circle makes those low AP threats much less, err, threatening, because they still need a 4+ to wound and your dudes have 3 wounds.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, weird question. I've played 40k for decades.... own seven huuuuuuuge armies... and somehow have never owned a Space Marine one.

What are people's thoughts on starting with two of the Dark Angel Combat Patrol boxes, even if I may well end up running them as a different Chapter? That box just seems to have a lot of the best units, with no dead weight?

Thoughts? They might initially become Iron Hands, but i'd love to try running all flavors to see what clicks.

Plasma Inceptors are solid gold, especially with Dark Angels. Redemptors are the best flavor of Dreadnoughts other than the Forge World ones. And you'll need Intercessors most likely as your troops. Two Chaplains are never really necessary, but maybe with a bit of imagination and some kitbashing/green stuff skills you could turn one into a Captain or Librarian or something. So getting two of those boxes could make a decent little core for you. Personally, I might go with one DA box and one BA box for a little variety, and you can sell whichever upgrade sprues you don't end up using.

Nice write-up. Your list is very much like what I'd like to run as an all-Ravenwing list, although I might try a Storm Speeder rather than a Vengeance in mine and see if it works well. Did you take Attack Bikes in your regular bike units? Because I'm giving that idea some serious thought myself.

I myself had put together a list I called "Oops, all Terminators", attempting to use only the models in my collection to make a pure Deathwing army with nothing but terminators, but then I realized I was actually one model short of actually being able to assemble the list. So I made a second version that I do have the models for:

The list has 39 models and really is not optimal for competitive play, but it's intended as kind of a meme list rather than something I would run in a tournament. Some of the regular dudes have chainfists instead of power fists but they cost the same so I didn't note them. I considered dropping one DW knight and adding other upgrades like more Watchers and making the Librarian a Chief Librarian, but decided to go with more of a "boys before toys" approach. This is basically every Terminator in my collection; I've got like 3 random guys left over.

To truly optimize this for tournament play, I would ditch the meme and probably replace Belial with Azrael, replace the Librarian with Ezekiel, and replace the Apothecary with a Ravenwing one. I would probably drop 2-3 of the Knights and the small Termie squad, replacing them with some Bladeguard for midfield brawling duty. I might have to post what I come up with as an optimized version of this list later.

New Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article showing the top 4 lists at a recent event in New Zealand, and Dark Angels took 2nd place with pure Ravenwing.

Linky for the curious: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-equinox-40k/

Apparently 5th place was also pure Ravenwing, but basically pure Land Speeders of various types. Curiouser and curiouser...

My takeaway from this is that I might need more bikes, especially Attack Bikes. I only own one and you can't find them anywhere, either in stores or on eBay unless you want some overpriced "pro painted" ones.

I'm actually looking for viable alternatives to Attack Bikes since they are kind of unavailable right now. My ideas for this are:
-Invader ATVs. I do own three of them, but they lack CORE, can't be revived by an Apothecary, and are significantly more expensive, although on the plus side they are more durable, especially with Jink being a thing.
-Eradicators. They aren't Ravenwing so wouldn't work in a pure list, but even with the price hike they got recently I think they are still very good. Not as OP as the doomsayers were thinking, though.
-Land Speeders. They can be okay melta caddies, perhaps, but honestly I like the ATVs better.
-Storm Speeder Hammerstrike: Very pricey, but basically carries a whole Attack Bike unit's worth of firepower. I like the stratagem to give it a 4++ without needing to Advance, which means DA might be the only chapter in which it is viable at all.
-Devastators: The OG melta bros. I like them, but they are basically worse Eradicators.

Speaking of Storm Speeders, I'm actually warming up to the idea of running a Thunderstrike as a backfield unit, using the range of its guns to keep it out of harm's way. It's durable enough that it takes real firepower to kill it, and it's dangerous enough to make the opponent want to spend that firepower on it, meaning that your other units (e.g. Black Knights) won't be eating those shots. I don't think I'd run more than one as only one vehicle can get the 4++ from the stratagem, but exactly one could have some play. Or at least it feels like it.

Another Goonhammer article, and another top 4 finish for Dark Angels, this time at the West Australia Iron Man event.

Link: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-brisbane-west-australia-iron-man/

Interesting mix of Deathwing and Ravenwing, a combo everyone was talking about when the book first dropped.

So, with DE being the new army to beat, might it be time to bring the Stormcannon Leviathan back into lists? Autocannon profile weapons seem to be more value against their vehicles than just about anything else and the aforementioned Leviathan pumps out 16 such shots.

I've been thinking about a combined Greenwing/Ravenwing list with a Leviathan, some Eradicators and maybe some Bladeguard in a Patrol (plus the obligatory troops and HQ), and then a main Ravenwing Outrider detachment with some ObSec bike units, some Attack Bikes, and maybe either a Storm Speeder or Land Speeder Vengeance. I definitely think you need to have something in there to take some of the heat off the Leviathan or it'll just eat every Dark Lance shot from the DE Raiders (or equivalent from other armies).

Okay, fair points there. Now I'm actually trying to think of everything Dark Angels have that could be good at killing a Raider at range. Leviathans, as mentioned, are an option but not a particularly good one. Personally I don't think very highly of Suppressors either, although at least they are Core. Other units with Autocannon-type weapons include the Predator Destructor (meh), Invictor Warsuit (also meh) and I think Contemptors can take Autocannons of some kind, or the newly popular Volkite whateveritscalled.

Then I got to thinking about our flyers, and how they might actually have a puncher's chance of causing real trouble for DE. The Nephilim's Avenger Mega Bolter puts out 10 D2 shots (at S6), which is pretty nice, in addition to the heavy bolters and missiles. Then there's the Dark Talon and it's mortal-wounding Rift Cannon, and its bolters can cause trouble for most infantry gribblies. Those seem pretty solid for the Death Guard matchup as well, as each successful wound with the Rift Cannon just flat kills one of those ever-popular Deathshroud Terminators.

The Nephilim is probably overcosted for what it does (and would absolutely be a lame duck in the DG matchup), but the Dark Talon might have some real play potential that I have so far overlooked. Flyers aren't super great in general in 9th edition, but being able to kill stuff in your opponent's zone, particularly either objective holders or transports full of melee nastiness, could be useful.

Got a game in against a friend's Raven Guard recently. We weren't running anything super competitive, and it was fairly close when we had to wrap it up.
My list:

His list, as best I can remember:

I don't remember everything about how the game went, but it was a pretty close one. We did add up the points and I would have won by 2 if the last turn we played (turn 3) was the end of the game. Overall it was nice to actually see what Raven Guard can do. They have some neat little tricks! Azrael got his ass sniped on turn 1 by the Phobos Captain and Eliminators. I totally underestimated those guys and paid the price. My 10-man Intercessor brick also got whittled down pretty good on the first turn, and my Pred ate the Eradicators' meltas and also died.

My takeaways:
-As I expected, the Predator is pretty much just a bullseye with treads in 9th edition. There's just way too much hyper-tuned anti-tank stuff in the meta for them to thrive (Eradicators, Retributors, Dark Lances, etc.). Granted, if I had gotten first turn it would have been different but still...
-The Repulsor did better than I expected, but still not really worth its points. If you do insist on running it, it's probably best to use it as an anti-infantry dakkaboat like I did here.
-Invader ATVs are pretty solid. I imagine they are even better in our lists thanks to Jink. More durable than Attack Bikes if not as efficient points-wise. Lack of CORE does hurt though, as my opponent lamented.
-Transhuman Physiology for the win! My Suppressors tanked a bunch of melta shots from the ATVs due to this stratagem (and some unlucky dice from my opponent). Having it always on for Deathwing is amazing as well.
-Talonmasters are pretty great in both melee and shooting if you give them a Heavenfall Blade. You don't even really need the warlord trait.
-Suppressors are good, but not great. Better than they used to be, especially if Drukhari continue to dominate the meta. They are decent at killing Marines too.

So, it looks like as far as changes go the only major one specific to us is that the Talonmaster is going up by 15 points. Ouch, but honestly they were underpriced at 160. I've also heard that the Chief Apothecary upgrade is going to cost more, possibly a lot more, but I haven't seen confirmation on that as yet (haven't looked for it specifically either). That will affect us quite a bit as the Ravenwing Apothecary is in basically every competitive DA list. But, Storm Speeders are getting a reduction and a recent high-placing Ravenwing list had two of those in it, so maybe there's some play there.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Any suggestions for fighting a super hardcore competitive player who will be bringing Mortarion, a bunch of those War-Dogs (Chaos Armigers?) and assorted Chaos soup? This guy is a high level player so there is no amount of counter-cheese I am unwilling to bring.

Bring meltas. Morty's damage reduction seriously reduces the effectiveness of D2 weapons (like supercharged plasma), although Weapons from the Dark Age mitigates this a little. So D6-damage weapons are better to use if possible. If you have Terminators, make sure you take a Watcher in the Dark on each squad for the chance to deny psychic shenanigans.

Another DA list made a top four and thus was featured in a Goonhammer article, and this one actually took a decent sized Greenwing detachment alongside Azrael and the Deathwing.

Here's the link

I never would have thought this list was good; shows what I know, eh? Apparently Greenwing are plenty viable and it's not just about Ravenwing and Deathwing. The guy even had an honest-to-God Tactical Squad in there. And apparently there's something to bringing along a Land Speeder Storm or two.

Invaders might have gotten slightly better, not in and of themselves, but by their main competition (Attack Bikes) getting a price bump. They probably still don't get there, but Attack Bikes are not as much cheaper now, although they do have CORE and can be revived by an Apothecary (ATVs cannot due to a FAQ, as we all know).

Maybe it's better to spread Attack Bikes out and put them in regular Bike Squads. Dilutes their firepower, but makes it harder to just swat all of them in one fell swoop. That's something you can't do with Invaders.

Another thing that might be relevant in the current meta is the fact that a Dark Lance or Cognis Lascannon shot will straight up delete an Attack Bike if the bike fails its save. This is not true of an Invader ATV, which takes two such shots to kill. Invaders might be more susceptible to stuff like the big scary Skitarii Vanguard blob using Enriched Rounds, though even there having more wounds to chew through helps them not die as fast, and while an Apothecary can't revive an ATV, he can restore some lost wounds and keep them around longer.

Dark Angels take 3rd place (and 5th) at the Atlantic City Open:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-drukhari-endgame/?fbclid=IwAR2ZsqOTej9PEVUIANEzYnYKgHgfH9-67fMmlqz_umYkUyZcYBP1kUpOriU

All the usual suspects in the 3rd place list, plus Land Speeder Vengeances. Maybe I need another one of those. I don't have BCP, so I couldn't see the 5th place list, but from the description it seemed to be a mostly Greenwing list, which is unusual in such high level play. Very good showing for Dark Angels though, to get two lists in the top 8.

Amaurosis wrote:
Hello,

I am asking on behalf of a friend, who is playing Dark Angels.

He is confused about some rule in the DA supplement:
It seems there is a section, which says that all units from the original Space Marine codex, that have the Deathwing category gain the Inner circle as well, when played as a Dark Angel.

To some part this is confirmed by Battlescribe as the Captain in Terminator having the Deathwing category gets that Inner Circle ability.

Not so the normal captain, though. Although having the Deathwing category he seems to have to "buy" that Inner circle ability via Rites if Initiation; making him cost even 5 points more than the Termi Captain??

And the librarian having Deathwing, too, seems no way of getting Inner circle at all, although bearing the deathwing category.

He is totally confused and does not know to what make out of this rule. I have to add that he has the German rulebooks.

Can somebody help?
Thank you!

Cheers Amaurosis

This is correct. Normal Captains do not have the Deathwing/Inner Circle rule and must pay extra points via Rites of Initiation. The Terminator Captain has the Deathwing keyword and thus automatically has the Inner Circle rule. As do all of the named characters. Librarians have Deathwing and therefore get Inner Circle as long as they are in a pure Dark Angels list (as in actual Dark Angels, not a Successor chapter).

Basically, anything with the <DEATHWING> or <INNER CIRCLE> keyword gets the Inner Circle rule as described by the codex supplement.

Dark Angels take second place at the Show Me Showdown in Kansas City, Missouri (about a 2-hour drive from where I live):

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-skitarii-super-sunday/

Apparently the Azrael/Hellblasters combo of yesteryear is not dead after all and seems to be pretty effective vs. the boogeyman of the month, Lucius Skitarii. MSU Bikers and Bladeguard are also very much a thing, and not an Attack Bike in sight. What I really like is the giant blob of Relic Terminators and the Bladeguard Ancient with the relic banner taking the Rites of War trait to make them ObSec. That's a pretty good combo, making already tough Terminators able to contest objectives against cheaper troops. Other than the Relic guys and a unit of Bladeguard I could actually run this exact list as long as nobody had a problem with using normal Hellblasters as the assault ones. Maybe balanced lists like this are the way forward for DA.

Another week, another Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article featuring top tournament lists. This time around Dark Angels take three top-four spots (including one win!):

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-machine-superiority/

Even in the midst of broken AdMech's reign of terror, Dark Angels are holding their own. And each of the featured DA lists is very different from the others, so it's not like we're shoehorned into building a certain way. That is a great thing for us.

leerm02 wrote:
Hey folks, quick question here:

With the DA chapter-tactics, do DA get to shoot flamers in engagement range? I was watching a game the other day and flamers kept coming up as quite good in one army's list... which made me think about the chapter tactic... which made me think: "No way! That would be insane!!"

So, can DA run, for example, a squad of Company vets with flamers in one hand and a storm shield in the other? Being able to move, advance, fire, and then later when they get into melee KEEP FIRING those dang flamers?

Cause if so: wow.

Sure, you could do that. The question is, why would you want to commit the resources to that little trick instead of something a lot more useful? It's not as powerful as it sounds, even with the flamers getting AP-1 in Tactical doctrine.

I have been thinking about Company Veterans, though. Namely the idea of putting Meltaguns/Combis and Storm Shields on them and sticking them in a drop pod to use as a deep strike anti-tank threat. Devastators with Multimeltas are probably just better though for the drop role, although they can't get invul saves unless you put Azrael in the pod with them (which would be a colossal waste of Azrael, obviously!). Yes, technically you could just drop them inside Azzy's shield bubble but then you are limited as to where you can drop. The Veterans, on the other hand, don't need a character to babysit them and are non-trivial to kill (2+/4++ with 2 wounds each takes a decent amount of firepower to remove). If they get killed, that's less guns shooting at the rest of your army. For bonus points, drop the pod on an objective and force your opponent to either waste guns on it or move one of their ObSec units over to that objective, potentially keeping them from being used elsewhere.

But again, it's probably a gimmick and I suspect there are far better uses of your points than suicide melta veterans, not to mention better sources of anti-tank (such as Eradicators and Attack Bikes).

On the topic of Attack Bikes, yeah they are scarce to find. Fortunately I managed to snag an STL file for a decent-looking one (complete with a Ravenwing tail fin) so I can 3d print a few as needed. You might be able to go that route as well, either printing them yourself if you have a 3d printer or getting someone else to do it for you.

As for your list, overall I like it. I think you don't want to put the CMLs on the home objective though, as usually you want to be out of LOS for Stubborn Defiance and that means the launchers won't have anything to shoot at most of the time. On a board where you can't hide, it's not a terrible plan though. With 190 points left, one thing you could do is add some more meltas to the bike units (melta + combi on sarge) and then stick in a unit of Outriders or a 5-man regular bike squad (comes to 2k on the nose). Gives you more mobile board control options. Or you could add a second LSV and have 70 more points to throw around, maybe add another bike to each of the existing units and a LC on each sergeant. The second Talonmaster option would not be a terrible choice either.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I think you could run three Talonmasters in a single Outrider Detachment. They are Lieutenants, so you can take two in a single HQ Force Org slot. So you take one as your Warlord. You then take another Talonmaster as your second "free slot" Lieutenant according to Company Heroes. You then take a 3rd Talonmaster as your 2nd HQ slot.

Did I get that right?

Pretty sure you're limited to one Captain and two Lieutenants per detachment, regardless of slots. I don't have my book in front of me right now though, so I could easily be wrong.

leerm02 wrote:

So...

Ravenwing: Black Knights or Outriders? Which works better? Use both in a force? Thoughts?

Apples and oranges, they don't really have the same role in a list. As T2B said above, Black Knights are much better vs. harder targets, but Outriders gain ObSec in a Ravenwing Outrider detachment. So it's really more of a question of what your list needs.

As for Outriders vs. regular bikes, I definitely lean towards regular bikes myself, especially now that Outriders are 50 ppm and there are more weapons that are really optimized to kill 4-wound models (Dark Lances, Cognis Lascannons, Entropy Cannons, etc.). Outriders are definitely not total garbage though and still hit harder than normal bikes in melee (3 Outriders = 19 attacks on the charge, 5 normal bikes with chainswords = 16 attacks on the charge, both cost 150 points).