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Having played a friendly game recently against Harlequins and then against a Custards player who was using the -1 to hit banner i can say with some confidence that Orkz need a rule that they always hit on at least 5s and it needs to be faction wide!

The impact of -1 to hit is pretty important to a lot of factions. A Marine player shooting with -1 to hit loses 25% of his accuracy, a Guardsmen player loses 33%, a Custards player loses 20% Here is the problem though, with a few rare exceptions, -1 to hit against an Ork player is a 50% decrease in hits. 50%!!

With custards having their banner, Harlequins, Eldar, Nidz etc having easy access to loads of -1 to hit...there just isn't a real way for a gunline Ork army to even have a chance. One more example of GW not understanding how their rules interact with the Ork faction, a 50% reduction in accuracy is just too big of a mountain for Ork shooting to overcome.

Put it another way, lets say I get 3 koptas into range against a voidweaver, USUALLY, against a target like that they would get 12 shots, 4 hits, 2.6(ish) wounds and 1.7ish would go through for 5.3dmg. Against -1 to hit voidweavers with their 4+ invuln it actually works out to 12 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds for about 2dmg a turn. Without the invuln its slightly better but not much. So to kill 1 voidweaver with deffkoptas would require 450pts worth of them. 450pts to kill 90. Without the -1 to hit it would be 4dmg a turn and would only require 4-5 koptas to kill 1, or 200-250pts to kill 90.

Keep in mind, -1 to hit in CC is fine, but against any army with 5+ to hit at range? Its devastating. I like the -1 to hit mechanic, I just think it needs to be more balanced across the armies that play the game. Mind you, a balancing mechanic might be to give bad BS units a lot more shots to compensate for their horrendous accuracy. Problem with that approach though is that then against units without -1 to hit you end up with just too much dmg output. I'd love to hear others opinions on this.

With the way the rules are going if I was you I'd be pulling for something a bit more ambitious.

Orks have a few BS4 options. And a few flamer options.
So if your regularly facing -1 to hit? Adapt. Make use of those options.

Looking at the complaints about the lethality of the game I'd say we need much more -1 to hit and it should stack. Moving heavy weapons, shooting through cover, shooting at something with an inherent -1 should all stack. This would help Orks, too because they can only ever receive -1 while Custodes can be hit by up to -4.
We had that in 8th and it's one of the most problematic changes from 9 th, especially since 6s always hit now for everyone.

No, that's much worse. Giving the active player the feeling that they can't accomplish anything is horrifyingly frustrating.

And it doesn't help orks at all. I'm not sure why it would- 'another faction can suck as much as we do if they happen to run into someone who can stack penalties beyond all reason' isn't a positive thing.

I suppose this is why Orks have descent Close Combat options. They soften you up with shooting before they get to Krumpin. After all Orks tend to have WS 3+ with a Warboss aura of +1 to Hit in Fights.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Looking at the complaints about the lethality of the game I'd say we need much more -1 to hit and it should stack. Moving heavy weapons, shooting through cover, shooting at something with an inherent -1 should all stack. This would help Orks, too because they can only ever receive -1 while Custodes can be hit by up to -4.
We had that in 8th and it's one of the most problematic changes from 9 th, especially since 6s always hit now for everyone.

This pretty much. They created the rule where a 6 to hit always hits. However there's not a lot of stuff with a shooting profile and BS6+. It was silly and an overreaction.
It also shows GW is unable to experiment with the various profiles of units and rules (which really showed when they made their new wounding chart). For example, Iron Hands could have a rule where they ignore the first modifier on their to hit roll due to all the bionics or some crap like that.

SemperMortis wrote:
Having played a friendly game recently against Harlequins and then against a Custards player who was using the -1 to hit banner i can say with some confidence that Orkz need a rule that they always hit on at least 5s and it needs to be faction wide!

The impact of -1 to hit is pretty important to a lot of factions. A Marine player shooting with -1 to hit loses 25% of his accuracy, a Guardsmen player loses 33%, a Custards player loses 20% Here is the problem though, with a few rare exceptions, -1 to hit against an Ork player is a 50% decrease in hits. 50%!!

With custards having their banner, Harlequins, Eldar, Nidz etc having easy access to loads of -1 to hit...there just isn't a real way for a gunline Ork army to even have a chance. One more example of GW not understanding how their rules interact with the Ork faction, a 50% reduction in accuracy is just too big of a mountain for Ork shooting to overcome.

Put it another way, lets say I get 3 koptas into range against a voidweaver, USUALLY, against a target like that they would get 12 shots, 4 hits, 2.6(ish) wounds and 1.7ish would go through for 5.3dmg. Against -1 to hit voidweavers with their 4+ invuln it actually works out to 12 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds for about 2dmg a turn. Without the invuln its slightly better but not much. So to kill 1 voidweaver with deffkoptas would require 450pts worth of them. 450pts to kill 90. Without the -1 to hit it would be 4dmg a turn and would only require 4-5 koptas to kill 1, or 200-250pts to kill 90.

Keep in mind, -1 to hit in CC is fine, but against any army with 5+ to hit at range? Its devastating. I like the -1 to hit mechanic, I just think it needs to be more balanced across the armies that play the game. Mind you, a balancing mechanic might be to give bad BS units a lot more shots to compensate for their horrendous accuracy. Problem with that approach though is that then against units without -1 to hit you end up with just too much dmg output. I'd love to hear others opinions on this.

Yeah wow, that -1 really does mess up Orks. I'm not very familiar with them; do they have access to any strats/ auras/ clan rules/ relics that confer a +1 they could use to cancel it out? I mean, I know that's an extra thing, and that imbalance still exists- I'm not saying that access to +1 means everything is okay- I'm just genuinely curious as a guy who doesn't have access to the Ork dex.

Freebooterz can counter the -1 to hit. Their Klan Kultur is part of why Orks got hit with the nerf bat last year.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Freebooterz can counter the -1 to hit. Their Klan Kultur is part of why Orks got hit with the nerf bat last year.

Probably going to be tough to pop say a skyweaver hitting on 6s and have enough left to take advantage of it though.

SemperMortis wrote:
Having played a friendly game recently against Harlequins and then against a Custards player who was using the -1 to hit banner i can say with some confidence that Orkz need a rule that they always hit on at least 5s and it needs to be faction wide!

And you've already put more thought into Ork rules than GW.

The problem with Orks is not this specifically, it's that consistently they're given underpowered options, and when they have powerful options accidentally they're nerfed quickly. GW doesn't want Orks to be good; they're not one of the "chosen" factions. They're meant to make little Timmy feel good for having beaten them with his space marines.

Hecaton 804403 11338879 wrote: They're meant to make little Timmy feel good for having beaten them with his space marines.

In 9th ed? Unless he plays a WS tournament list, he ain't beating no orks unless the dice gods smile on the marine player.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Looking at the complaints about the lethality of the game I'd say we need much more -1 to hit and it should stack. Moving heavy weapons, shooting through cover, shooting at something with an inherent -1 should all stack. This would help Orks, too because they can only ever receive -1 while Custodes can be hit by up to -4.
We had that in 8th and it's one of the most problematic changes from 9 th, especially since 6s always hit now for everyone.

Sure. Just give same bs to all

ccs wrote:
Orks have a few BS4 options. And a few flamer options.
So if your regularly facing -1 to hit? Adapt. Make use of those options.

Ork BS4 options are Mek gunz (No kulture, no strats, can only take 3 total in 3 separate squads otherwise morale kills them)
Flashgitz (24' heavy weapon so if they move they are right back to 5+ to hit, massively overpriced for their dmg output, still incredibly flimsy defensive wise)
Big Mekz (its an HQ, all its weapons are terrible, SAG is garbage level bad now)
Grots (No kulture, not Obsec, S3 Pistols, 7+ save armor and -1 to attrition tests)
Grot Mega Tank and Grot tanks (Incredibly expensive FW units, slightly better than Ork versions of similar vehicles but still not good)
SJD (limited to 3 per army at most, only counts on its main gun which is assault 2 S8)
Rukkatrukk squigbuggy (Nerfed to hell and back, still only averages 3.5 hits a turn at S5 -2AP 2dmg)
Kannon Wagon: (150pts for 2D6 shots at BS4 S8 -2 3dmg blast....not worth it)

Flamer options are
Burnas: (Over priced, low dmg output, NO DURABILITY)
Skorchas: (Basically heavy flamers, few units can take them and the ones that can generally dont want to do to points constraints)

So there are options, none are competitive, and none will hold up on the tournament scene.

 alextroy wrote:
I suppose this is why Orks have descent Close Combat options. They soften you up with shooting before they get to Krumpin. After all Orks tend to have WS 3+ with a Warboss aura of +1 to Hit in Fights.

Ork boyz are now worse than ever before, Meganobz are ok but outshown by basically any other 30-40pt CC infantry, Stormboyz are just faster more expensive boyz,IE don't do much dmg..I can keep going but the point I am making is that orkz aren't particularly good in CC either compared to a lot of other competitive options.

PenitentJake wrote:

Yeah wow, that -1 really does mess up Orks. I'm not very familiar with them; do they have access to any strats/ auras/ clan rules/ relics that confer a +1 they could use to cancel it out? I mean, I know that's an extra thing, and that imbalance still exists- I'm not saying that access to +1 means everything is okay- I'm just genuinely curious as a guy who doesn't have access to the Ork dex.

The only real +1 to hit offered in the codex is Freeboota Kulture, and it only goes off after you kill a unit, its good, but somewhat unreliable in the current meta.

Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

Dakka is an Ork term, you know.

You CAN build a melee-focused or almost exclusively melee Ork list.
But you shouldn’t have to-Orks might not be the most elegant of marksmen, but they’re damn well effective with the sheer storm of bullet they put down.

Unfortunately, the rules don’t reflect that well.

Karol wrote:
In 9th ed? Unless he plays a WS tournament list, he ain't beating no orks unless the dice gods smile on the marine player.

I'm talking about what's meant to happen. The power creep is also real. The lack of care and thought put into the ork codex really shows.

Question: Is it still the case that special ork guns (thinking lootas, flashgitz, etc.) are pretty cheap for their profiles? I remember being able to look at the cost of a loota vs a dark reaper and sort of see how GW landed on their respective prices with the lootas losing out due to lack of durability and buff support more than baked-in killing power. Wondering if the new 'dex (and in the increased Toughness stat) has further skewed the effectiveness of ork dakka infantry.

Still getting my feet wet with the new eldar book. Are harlequins really all that durable now? I see that they still have a lot of the same durability tricks they did before, but they're also still a T3 army with a (usually) 4+ save. (It just happens to be a 4+ save that doesn't care about AP or light cover.)

A change in the ‘to hit’ mechanism, where BS vs Height is compared in the same way as S vs T, might help.

But Ork shooting has been consistently downgraded since 3rd Ed (or other factions’ has improved), and they have become more vulnerable. Various army lists I play consistently die vs Eldar, the only way I have of causing damage is to spam Tankbustas in 5 man units. And no, I can’t ‘play the mission’ when my units are being deleted.

The rules have been in an absolute state of mess for years now.

There is only one option.

Rules need to be free, available in Digital PDF format, downloaded from their website or through an app for a small fee (1.99$).

The reason for this is so that they can make changes and adjustments on the fly, and have all of the data for what is overperforming and underperforming and then make corrections for it.

This constant drip feed of rules, only to see them completely redone again next year is starting to cause problems. A lot of people are choosing to look for their rules elsewhere, thus not buying the books as much anymore.

I'm reading from this that Harlequins need fixing, not that ork shooting is suddenly a bust. Most armies have some -1 to hit, internally or externally, including the battlefield. Its when it's on most of the army who also pack decent invulns you're seeing the issue.

Edit: not to say that ork gunlines are fine and a competitive option, I'm just pointing out you're using the most durable, unfriendly and unbalanced units to fire into to make a point.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

They used to, when power klaws could instant kill multiwound models and even vehicles. Now melee is a joke for orks, we are below average in close combat. And the majority of the ork units in the codex are shooting oriented, aka only shooting or mix shooting/melee with shooting part being better than melee part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Freebooterz can counter the -1 to hit. Their Klan Kultur is part of why Orks got hit with the nerf bat last year.

Not that easy to get when the best shooters hit on 6s before triggering that bonus. Especially against really tough units like custodes ones. Against aeldari or tyranids (unless they leave the squishy stuff at home) it's certainly easier to get that armywide +1 to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Question: Is it still the case that special ork guns (thinking lootas, flashgitz, etc.) are pretty cheap for their profiles? I remember being able to look at the cost of a loota vs a dark reaper and sort of see how GW landed on their respective prices with the lootas losing out due to lack of durability and buff support more than baked-in killing power. Wondering if the new 'dex (and in the increased Toughness stat) has further skewed the effectiveness of ork dakka infantry.

Lootas and flash gitz are utterly expensive for their profiles. That's why they never see the table.

"Cheap" gun platforms are bikes, a couple of planes, deffkoptas, buggies, a couple of mek gunz. So typically S5 AP0/AP-1 D1 or S8 AP-2/AP-3 D3/DD6 weapons.

SemperMortis wrote:

ccs wrote:
Orks have a few BS4 options. And a few flamer options.
So if your regularly facing -1 to hit? Adapt. Make use of those options.

Ork BS4 options are Mek gunz (No kulture, no strats, can only take 3 total in 3 separate squads otherwise morale kills them)
Flashgitz (24' heavy weapon so if they move they are right back to 5+ to hit, massively overpriced for their dmg output, still incredibly flimsy defensive wise)
Big Mekz (its an HQ, all its weapons are terrible, SAG is garbage level bad now)
Grots (No kulture, not Obsec, S3 Pistols, 7+ save armor and -1 to attrition tests)
Grot Mega Tank and Grot tanks (Incredibly expensive FW units, slightly better than Ork versions of similar vehicles but still not good)
SJD (limited to 3 per army at most, only counts on its main gun which is assault 2 S8)
Rukkatrukk squigbuggy (Nerfed to hell and back, still only averages 3.5 hits a turn at S5 -2AP 2dmg)
Kannon Wagon: (150pts for 2D6 shots at BS4 S8 -2 3dmg blast....not worth it)

Flamer options are
Burnas: (Over priced, low dmg output, NO DURABILITY)
Skorchas: (Basically heavy flamers, few units can take them and the ones that can generally dont want to do to points constraints)

So there are options, none are competitive, and none will hold up on the tournament scene.

1) You left out Kanz, the Wazbomb, & the Legendary Big Gunz.
2) So, as-is, the army you field is gak against the particular problem you're facing. You've got several units that although flawed do counter it, but you dismiss the options citing their non-competitiveness tourney wise.
Oh no, not that.... I mean, what's going to happen? They''ll preform worse than whatever you're already doing?? At least you'll land a few more shots on the way to your loss.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

I really do wonder why there are so many people who keep parroting up this nonsense despite the overwhelming evidence of it being wrong.

ccs wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

ccs wrote:
Orks have a few BS4 options. And a few flamer options.
So if your regularly facing -1 to hit? Adapt. Make use of those options.

Ork BS4 options are Mek gunz (No kulture, no strats, can only take 3 total in 3 separate squads otherwise morale kills them)
Flashgitz (24' heavy weapon so if they move they are right back to 5+ to hit, massively overpriced for their dmg output, still incredibly flimsy defensive wise)
Big Mekz (its an HQ, all its weapons are terrible, SAG is garbage level bad now)
Grots (No kulture, not Obsec, S3 Pistols, 7+ save armor and -1 to attrition tests)
Grot Mega Tank and Grot tanks (Incredibly expensive FW units, slightly better than Ork versions of similar vehicles but still not good)
SJD (limited to 3 per army at most, only counts on its main gun which is assault 2 S8)
Rukkatrukk squigbuggy (Nerfed to hell and back, still only averages 3.5 hits a turn at S5 -2AP 2dmg)
Kannon Wagon: (150pts for 2D6 shots at BS4 S8 -2 3dmg blast....not worth it)

Flamer options are
Burnas: (Over priced, low dmg output, NO DURABILITY)
Skorchas: (Basically heavy flamers, few units can take them and the ones that can generally dont want to do to points constraints)

So there are options, none are competitive, and none will hold up on the tournament scene.

1) You left out Kanz, the Wazbomb, & the Legendary Big Gunz.
2) So, as-is, the army you field is gak against the particular problem you're facing. You've got several units that although flawed do counter it, but you dismiss the options citing their non-competitiveness tourney wise.
Oh no, not that.... I mean, what's going to happen? They''ll preform worse than whatever you're already doing?? At least you'll land a few more shots on the way to your loss.

Also Flash Gitz are the perfect counter because, once they've moved, they can't be lowered further thanks to the cap of the -1.

Flash Gitz are utterly overcosted though, espectially if they can't hit on 3s reliably, let alone if they're forced to hit on 5s at most.

 Jidmah wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

I really do wonder why there are so many people who keep parroting up this nonsense despite the overwhelming evidence of it being wrong.

Shall i Grab the old ork dex? 4th ed one and it's description of the humble shoota in relation to ork society?
Or is said Poster too far gone?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

I really do wonder why there are so many people who keep parroting up this nonsense despite the overwhelming evidence of it being wrong.

Shall i Grab the old ork dex? 4th ed one and it's description of the humble shoota in relation to ork society?
Or is said Poster too far gone?

Personally, I prefer the part about the war of dakka, when orks pushed back the farsight enclave because they were outgunning them.

that rule is called "Freebootas" lol.

 Jidmah wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Orks shoot to make noise, not to kill. So, who cares?

Orks are a close combat army, they should win games assaulting, not shooting

I really do wonder why there are so many people who keep parroting up this nonsense despite the overwhelming evidence of it being wrong.

"Should" meaning thats not how it currently is