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Hi all,

So me and my group really enjoy the smaller end of 40k, but find Kill Team too intricate. We've started playing the following:

Army Sizes: 6-12PL/side
Mostly a limitation based on board size (see next point), 12PL can be pretty cramped.
We play it as evenly as possible but thankfully the Open Play Hostility Mission Pack tells us how to handle uneven PL.

Board Size: 22"*30"
This is a practical limitation due to space, as we generally play on the bed, as I'm bedbound with pain and/or treatment for my blood cancer frequently enough that this became needed.
Terrain wise I tend to avoid ruins, but otherwise the boards are quite full. I capped it at 12PL for 12-25PL we do use 30"*44" (2 KT/recruit boards), and it's fun, but can be a bit exhausting.

No detachments/CPs/Strats, just faction rules/wlt
This is for ease of play. Personally, since the games are something my family plays with me as a social game (the rules don't matter that much to them, complexity isn't really needed here), I don't want to hassle with all of that. I planned on adding on things. Sometimes we use Theaters of War.
We do use codexes if we have them.
If folks ask for a game with strats and such, we do so at the higher PL as noted above, to make sure everyone can make a minimum patrol so they have CP access. We never play BATTLEFORGED vs Unbound.

Core rules PDF for rules.
That's it. It's a version of the games that far more fitting to the "weed and water" (we don't drink beer, we use cannabis for pain and mental health control) and I don't like snack when playing because the models can get gross, kids hands, also I'm not a fan of pretzels) style gaming that we play.

With the games being so small, we can play a bunch in a row and have spent afternoons and evenings playing out a series of games, adding in the CA18 Battle Honours rules to build small stories. I've had some of the Littles write stories about some of these mini campaigns, or artwork, it's adorable.

Yes, it a drastically different way to play, but it's a fun quicks way to get some 40k play without massive games.

I'd suggest trying it out, if only to try. Try it before you judge it.

It's perfect for the Recruit box (been trying to save for it since it dropped but food beats 40k), the Marines have 9PL and the Necrons have 12, on the 22*30 board.

You can play really wild things with more elite forces really both feeling the pinch in PL, but their elite feeling really shows when 1-3 models can face off against hordes.

I've basically done this with my nephews and their Star Dragons vs my Orks. it was closer to 20pl each and we played on a full size board to have a turn or two of pure maneuvering(as space wasn't a restriction in our case).

Your recent thread on the subject is here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805593.page

Perhaps we should continue discussion in the existing thread?

Not enough detail or depth for my liking.
I play warhammer for it to be a wargame, not a board game that is war themed.

Stripping out to many of the rules just make it feel like im playing a boxed game rather then a wargme as they traditionally were designed, officer training tools.

If you are looking to just bowl dice around the table or introduce someone new to wargaming to a basic stripped down version, sounds like a fun time. But if you are someone looking for a more traditional warhammer experience seems to be lacking the meat and potatoes.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Your recent thread on the subject is here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805593.page

Perhaps we should continue discussion in the existing thread?

I actually was about to remove that thread, as I took the wrong tactic with the op, and decided to start this one, ie; this one focuses on Power Levels as that's how we play. In the previous thread, I skewed my op towards points, to get discussion, but it devolved into silliness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Not enough detail or depth for my liking.
I play warhammer for it to be a wargame, not a board game that is war themed.

Stripping out to many of the rules just make it feel like im playing a boxed game rather then a wargme as they traditionally were designed, officer training tools.

If you are looking to just bowl dice around the table or introduce someone new to wargaming to a basic stripped down version, sounds like a fun time. But if you are someone looking for a more traditional warhammer experience seems to be lacking the meat and potatoes.

To a point, I agree. When I can manage it, a proper 25PL game with all the trimmings can be a fun thick game. But I'd gather play this version with my family than not use my models at all.

I guess that's what it comes down to. It's either this, or nothing.

 Blndmage wrote:
I actually was about to remove that thread, as I took the wrong tactic with the op, and decided to start this one, ie; this one focuses on Power Levels as that's how we play. In the previous thread, I skewed my op towards points, to get discussion, but it devolved into silliness.

But why does that matter so much? Whether you play a 6 point game or a 120 point game it's still the same game, the system you use to add up the point costs is the least interesting thing about the concept. Or is the goal here just to get affirmation for PL (and weed, apparently?) now that the previous thread is locked?

I guess that's what it comes down to. It's either this, or nothing.

Then what discussion are you looking to have here? In the OP you talk about how good the format is and encourage people to try it, but now you're saying it's just a last resort where the alternative is playing no game at all? If it's just "either this or nothing" what is the appeal for people who aren't limited to this?

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
I actually was about to remove that thread, as I took the wrong tactic with the op, and decided to start this one, ie; this one focuses on Power Levels as that's how we play. In the previous thread, I skewed my op towards points, to get discussion, but it devolved into silliness.

But why does that matter so much? Whether you play a 6 point game or a 120 point game it's still the same game, the system you use to add up the point costs is the least interesting thing about the concept. Or is the goal here just to get affirmation for PL (and weed, apparently?) now that the previous thread is locked?

I guess that's what it comes down to. It's either this, or nothing.

Then what discussion are you looking to have here? In the OP you talk about how good the format is and encourage people to try it, but now you're saying it's just a last resort where the alternative is playing no game at all? If it's just "either this or nothing" what is the appeal for people who aren't limited to this?

Point 1: We're not having that conversation again.

Point 2: At first I felt similarly to others. But after playing, getting to see my family enjoy it, wanting to learn the lore and collect their own tiny forces. It's become a surprisingly fun format to play.

While I agree that 40k can be a deeper, bigger game. Playing the lighter version bring a fresh air to it. It's really reminds me of the old 40k in 40min style play (my personal favorite back then). It's great for quick games.

I've found it to be quite refreshing and wanted to share it.

Not to try and sir the pot, but to sir the pot.

We literally JUST came off a 40 page thread over the discussion of PL vs Points, the first thing you do is make another thread about your PL way of playing, and saying "Well we are not going to have that conversation again." when the thread itself offers nothing inviting to the conversation but.

Im left wondering what the point of making this thread was then, because what was the outcome you were hoping for here?

Everyone to NOT come in here and discuss PL and Points once more? Everyone to jsut go "Yeah great system!" and thats the end of it? We are on a general discussion board, so if you are going to present your way of play, its going to get discussed and you just cant say "Well we arnt having that conversation agian." Because making a thread about this is just inviting it.

I dont give a damn how you do or do not play with your dolls just like im sure you dont care how i play with my action figures. But what was the goal of this thread coming off the previously locked one?

It just very much screams, "Well im just gonna flaunt my way of play!" like ok you play PL, no one cares, but if you are going to post about it, we are going to have to discuss it because thats the point of this forum.

I’ve never played smaller than 500 points.

For me personally, I’d rather go to Kill Team (though KT2 doesn’t seem very good) for smaller games, because I like the gritty crunch.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I’ve never played smaller than 500 points.

For me personally, I’d rather go to Kill Team (though KT2 doesn’t seem very good) for smaller games, because I like the gritty crunch.

I have found that at 500 point games and even 1000 point games general its more enjoyable to play specific missions like ZM at 1000 points, or cities of death ect ect.

 Blndmage wrote:
Point 1: We're not having that conversation again.

Ok, but you're the one who brought up PL in the first place. I'm perfectly fine with leaving it at "PL is not essential or relevant here".

While I agree that 40k can be a deeper, bigger game. Playing the lighter version bring a fresh air to it. It's really reminds me of the old 40k in 40min style play (my personal favorite back then). It's great for quick games.

I've found it to be quite refreshing and wanted to share it.

While I agree with the general point about small games I don't really see any value to something this small outside of your very specific needs. With only 1-2 units on the table per player and most of the rules stripped away the decision trees get cut down so much that there's nothing interesting left. Move your one unit into the middle of the table, trade dice with your opponent's one unit until someone runs out of models and loses the game. That's not "light 40k", that's barely even a game at all.

What 40k needs is an actual successor to 40k in 40 minutes/combat patrol/etc, a 500 point game with specific restrictions to deal with the balance issues that come up if you allow unrestricted normal armies. No 2+ saves, no vehicles with total AV more than 33, etc. That keeps out the death star problem and gives you an interesting game with 5-10 units per side and meaningful interactions besides comparing average firepower per turn to see who has better dice math. If you want to play with only 5-10 models in an army you really need something like kill team, where each model is its own unit and you get back to having meaningful decisions to make.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Spoiler:

Not to try and sir the pot, but to sir the pot.

We literally JUST came off a 40 page thread over the discussion of PL vs Points, the first thing you do is make another thread about your PL way of playing, and saying "Well we are not going to have that conversation again." when the thread itself offers nothing inviting to the conversation but.

Im left wondering what the point of making this thread was then, because what was the outcome you were hoping for here?

Everyone to NOT come in here and discuss PL and Points once more? Everyone to jsut go "Yeah great system!" and thats the end of it? We are on a general discussion board, so if you are going to present your way of play, its going to get discussed and you just cant say "Well we arnt having that conversation agian." Because making a thread about this is just inviting it.

I dont give a damn how you do or do not play with your dolls just like im sure you dont care how i play with my action figures. But what was the goal of this thread coming off the previously locked one?

It just very much screams, "Well im just gonna flaunt my way of play!" like ok you play PL, no one cares, but if you are going to post about it, we are going to have to discuss it because thats the point of this forum.

Honestly this topic seems totally fine. I don't see why any of that thread is even relevant.

@Blindmage: I love the idea of smaller games, but the rules as is don't quite give me enough detail at that level. But at the same time I find Necromunda too fiddly, and while I haven't played Kill Team in a long time, I wasn't too keen on it for it's lack of support for vehicles (or even squads, iirc).

Quick little relaxing games is great way to play though. Tbh I'm a little jealous. Maybe when the kids are a little older. . .

If I want a small game, I go Infinity, but that doesn't match what you want. There's also One Page Rules if you want a simple game to play with Warhammer models. If you're set on using the actual 40k rules, Index 8th seems like where I'd go for really simple games to get someone into the system. Your way does seem fun for getting people into 40k or having very quick and small games, but I'd recommend trying One Page Rules briefly one day.

I still have yet to try OPR. Hopefully soon. I still think it'll lack the granularity that I'm after, but I'm curious about the ruleset.

The other way to go about it is to look at 2nd edition, and put some restrictions on what to take. But there's some nice detail to that system that can make small unit actions more interesting than current 40K.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I still have yet to try OPR. Hopefully soon. I still think it'll lack the granularity that I'm after, but I'm curious about the ruleset.

The other way to go about it is to look at 2nd edition, and put some restrictions on what to take. But there's some nice detail to that system that can make small unit actions more interesting than current 40K.

That said if you want good time small scale warhammer, Herald of Ruin is amazing. Its bascially if some one took Mordhim and Kill team and made a love child.

I got to do an atomic elbow drop from a sky shield landing pad onto an ork nob as a deathwing terminator.

This sounds pretty similar to the old Kill Team add-on/mode of pre-8th ed 40k (not the current game of the same name).

We played it a lot with my wife on our kitchen table when life prevented us from playing full scale games - just a handful of minis, some terrain and a fast game after dinner. This type of 40k is best served as short series of connected games and has a bit of taste of 2nd ed style 40k, where you only had a bunch of dudes and a walker or small vehicle. Very much a completely different beast than "proper 2000pts matched" and we liked it enough to invest first into Shadow War and then a fully blown Oldcromunda.

Which brings me to the point - you might want to get a hold of a copy of Shadow War: Armageddon rules. It is one book with all the rules and all factions in it. It has a LOT less crunch than modern Kill Team, is self-contained, and since it is based on the 2nd ed 40k/oldcromunda rules, it works really nicely. There are some balance issues with some factions, but nothing too hard to work around in a friendly environment. And since it is 40k based, no investment in separate models is necessary.

Or as mentioned above, Herald of Ruins.

Now, on completely separate note, there is this great small scale game called Turnip28. Even reading through the rulebook (it's free) is fun. The premise is "post-apocalypse in napoleonic times" with a lot of interesting design elements and a truckload of atmosphere. Ah, and I almost forgot about a cherry on top - no point system whatsoever

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I still have yet to try OPR. Hopefully soon. I still think it'll lack the granularity that I'm after, but I'm curious about the ruleset.

The other way to go about it is to look at 2nd edition, and put some restrictions on what to take. But there's some nice detail to that system that can make small unit actions more interesting than current 40K.

That said if you want good time small scale warhammer, Herald of Ruin is amazing. Its bascially if some one took Mordhim and Kill team and made a love child.

I got to do an atomic elbow drop from a sky shield landing pad onto an ork nob as a deathwing terminator.

Interesting . . . .*checking out* Thanks for pointing this at me!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I still have yet to try OPR. Hopefully soon. I still think it'll lack the granularity that I'm after, but I'm curious about the ruleset.

The other way to go about it is to look at 2nd edition, and put some restrictions on what to take. But there's some nice detail to that system that can make small unit actions more interesting than current 40K.

That said if you want good time small scale warhammer, Herald of Ruin is amazing. Its bascially if some one took Mordhim and Kill team and made a love child.

I got to do an atomic elbow drop from a sky shield landing pad onto an ork nob as a deathwing terminator.

Interesting . . . .*checking out* Thanks for pointing this at me!

I cant speak for 8th and 9th ed of the rules but the 7th ed rules for it were AMAZING, because it did not have formation crap it curbed the power of a LOT of units. The only ones to avoid or be very careful with letting people field are the assassin armies, and the Heresy armies (unless fighting other heresy aremies)

I ran an assassin army once in a campain, and i broke the game so horribly bad that i had to drop that army myself because i just murdered people with them.

The whole "only datasheets" and core rules system really works for me. Being able to just have the datacards on hand and not flipping through pages is actually very enjoyable, and especially for this scale works nicely.

Do you still use coherency rules, or do you let smaller, more elite units roam around a bit? I definitely agree that smaller sizes make elite things feel much more, well, elite!

Just.....just play Kill Team

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just.....just play Kill Team

No.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just.....just play Kill Team

No.

You defend PL so nobody cares. Kill Team accomplishes what wants to be done here but way better.

Page 3 is my guess

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just.....just play Kill Team

No.

You defend PL so nobody cares. Kill Team accomplishes what wants to be done here but way better.

Kill Team 1st (from 8th) wasn't half bad.
Kill Team 2... No thank you. Not a fan.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I still have yet to try OPR. Hopefully soon. I still think it'll lack the granularity that I'm after, but I'm curious about the ruleset.

I'm normally pretty keen on crunch in my wargames, so I was reluctant to try it for a while. Having done so I now feel that it accomplishes the feel of 3rd-5th while significantly reducing cognitive load and resolution time. It's got a lot of the same gameplay concepts- morale is important and failing morale in melee is Very Bad, characters join squads to amp up their capabilities, the game state is WYSIWYG, units are limited in how much they can do at a time (no move+shoot+charge)- with the added wrinkle of alternating activation. It's my go-to ruleset now for 40K minis when I don't feel like dealing with 9th.

Relating to OP, I think it'd work a little better for small-scale play. AA is nice when you only have a few squads on the table (harder to cripple the other army in one go), the rules support smaller squads than 40K does, and most importantly you can have the game rules on a single page and each army roster (with full rules) on another page. It's easy for wargaming novices to pick up.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Just.....just play Kill Team

No.

I mean, you're always free to sabotage your own enjoyment of the game by playing weird stripped down pseudo-40k but if you want a small-scale game Kill Team is a much better game. It has rules that were actually designed to work with the scale and a modern alternating activation system instead of the misery of IGOUGO.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Kill Team 1st (from 8th) wasn't half bad.
Kill Team 2... No thank you. Not a fan.

Why don't you like the current Kill Team game? IMO it's way better than anything GW has done with the core 40k game, and it's a significant improvement over the pseudo-40k that the previous edition was trying to be. Wahapedia even provides the rules with distances in inches instead of the weird shape thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Spoiler:

Not to try and sir the pot, but to sir the pot.

We literally JUST came off a 40 page thread over the discussion of PL vs Points, the first thing you do is make another thread about your PL way of playing, saying "Well we are not going to have that conversation again." when the thread itself offers nothing inviting to the conversation but.

Im left wondering what the point of making this thread was then, because what was the outcome you were hoping for here?

Everyone to NOT come in here and discuss PL and Points once more? Everyone to jsut go "Yeah great system!" and thats the end of it? We are on a general discussion board, so if you are going to present your way of play, its going to get discussed and you just cant say "Well we arnt having that conversation agian." Because making a thread about this is just inviting it.

I dont give a damn how you do or do not play with your dolls just like im sure you dont care how i play with my action figures. But what was the goal of this thread coming off the previously locked one?

It just very much screams, "Well im just gonna flaunt my way of play!" like ok you play PL, no one cares, but if you are going to post about it, we are going to have to discuss it because thats the point of this forum.

Honestly this topic seems totally fine. I don't see why any of that thread is even relevant.

@Blindmage: I love the idea of smaller games, but the rules as is don't quite give me enough detail at that level. But at the same time I find Necromunda too fiddly, and while I haven't played Kill Team in a long time, I wasn't too keen on it for it's lack of support for vehicles (or even squads, iirc).

Quick little relaxing games is great way to play though. Tbh I'm a little jealous. Maybe when the kids are a little older. . .

A big part of why we play the way we do is because they showed interest in playing.

Yes, they're more limited, but feel free to add in what you want. We just really wanted to remind folks that playing Micro is valid and giving it a try can't hurt anyone.

We'd love to work out missions and such, it's tricky. We're very much inspired by the old Combat Patrol games. Compared to 4th, the game is far more balanced, even at the Micro scale.

The speed of play and ability to string a few games together for a story in the same time it takes to play 1 2k game.

Kill team to intracate??? Not even sure o understand this. Kill teams rules are really good right now.

All I feel is a general bad taste in my mouth when I see new Kill Team rules. The old ones were just small scale 40k with AA, but I vastly preferred making my own dudes, rather than following preset lists with only minor customization. I don't care how fun it is if my selections are between pre made lists and "5 scions or 7 guardsmen" lists.
I want Crusaders, Scions, and Guardsmen, with maybe an Ogryn in my list.
I want Skitarii Rangers, Vanguard, Infiltrators, and Ruststalkers.
I want Lychguard, Warriors, Praetorians, Immortals, Flayed Ones.
But I also don't want to follow pre made lists with small changes. It doesn't appeal to me.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I vastly preferred making my own dudes, rather than following preset lists with only minor customization. I don't care how fun it is if my selections are between pre made lists and "5 scions or 7 guardsmen" lists.

I suppose that's fair. IMO the changes to the core rules outweigh the loss of customization, especially since in any kind of competitive setting too many of the KT 1.0 lists were just "spam the obvious good weapon as many times as possible". Yeah, I theoretically had options in 1.0 but in practice it was just 8x plasma guns and a sergeant hiding behind a wall to generate CP. Now I have more diversity of models on the table and, because GW isn't limited to copying the 40k units, they have much more interesting abilities. But I guess if you had a very low optimization environment 1.0 did have more total options.