Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'll get this one started.

Has anyone noticed how Mists of Deimos synergizes perfectly with Rapid Ingress?
You can pick up a unit in your opponent's movement phase, and then place them on the board via deepstrike in that very same phase for a total of 2 CP.

Tank Shock goes well on NDK Greathammers and Epic Challenge on the GMNDK is great for assassinations.

Overwatch with 6 Incinerators in a squad of Paladins/GM is nasty against transported T3 gun infantry.

Index
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/jwnoxOBVDo8pDXKF.pdf

Point Costs
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/I5QAEb5U4TUdNRGP.pdf

Not to diminish the thought of 6d6 auto-hits, but personally, I'd rather equip 6 Psycannon on my 10Pally+GM unit.

Pyscannons are certainly one of the better ways we have to deal with 2W models.

To compare between 6 psycannons and 6 incinerators, though, you have to include OW in the calculations.
While there will be many instances when the enemy will not want to move near your scary blob of Paladin death, there will be many others where they must, for an objective or for assault. So I think it's fair to consider OW.

So we've got 6 Psycannons for 18 shots hitting on 2s (and with the GM, we don't care about negs), that's 15 hits, wounding on 2s or 3s or 5s.
Wounding on 2s is 12.5 wounds
Wounding on 3s is 10 wounds
Wounding on 4s is 7.5 wounds
Wounding on 5s is 5 wounds
Then we give -1AP saves
In OW, it's 3 hits, and an addl 2.5, 2, 1.5, or 1 wound depending on target toughness
Don't forget they get cover against this, so the -1AP isn't that great

If we take the incinerators, it's 6d6 for an average of 21 hits.
Wounding on 2s is 17.5 wounds
Wounding on 3s is 14 wounds
Wounding on 4s is 10.5 wounds
Wounding on 5s is 7 wounds
Wounding on 6s is 3.5 wounds
In OW, it's exactly the same, bc Torrent
And it Ignores Cover, so the AP-1 does something!

Combining the two Psycannon shooting phases, we have 15 wounds against T4 down, 12 wounds against T5-7, 9 wounds against T8, and 6 wounds against T9+

Combining the two Incinerator shooting phases, we have 35 wounds against T3 down, 28 wounds against T4-5, 21 wounds against T6, 14 wounds against T7-11, and 7 wounds against T12+

Considering Wound values, Incinerators are better against 1W and 3W models, while Psycannons are better against 2W and 4W models.

They Psycans would kill 5 Marines or 5 Aspect Warriors in cover, while the Incins would kill 7 Marines or 17.5 Aspect Warriors

So the Incins are already out-performing, because of two main factors: they ignore the hit roll and they get to, for 1CP, fire twice as often (or nearly so) as the Psycans.

-

Yeah, unless I'm missing something in the sequence of events, overwatch/mists of deimos (Or overwatch/sigil of exigence) is a real 'screw you' combination, especially with Haloed in soulfire.

I played my first game with my GK this week and was comprehensively beaten. I like the rules but they seem in a really bad place. Specifically a lack of buffs (they're basically all defensive) and also failing every single charge after teleporting. I guess the one good thing was that my Stormraven seemed quite durable.

Does anyone have any advice on how to best use the army rule other than being lucky with charges? Sure it's good repositioning and shooting stuff, but without buffs or the ability to get into melee it's not enough.

 dreadblade wrote:
I played my first game with my GK this week and was comprehensively beaten. I like the rules but they seem in a really bad place. Specifically a lack of buffs (they're basically all defensive) and also failing every single charge after teleporting. I guess the one good thing was that my Stormraven seemed quite durable.

Does anyone have any advice on how to best use the army rule other than being lucky with charges? Sure it's good repositioning and shooting stuff, but without buffs or the ability to get into melee it's not enough.

Use it to position/re-position units to achieve secondary objectives (assuming your using the mission cards).
You win games via having more VP than the other guy. Go score those VP.

ccs wrote:
assuming your using the mission cards

No, we were just playing a mission from the BRB.

 dreadblade wrote:

No, we were just playing a mission from the BRB.

Condolance then. After the changes you will probably fit a whole extra squad of something, maybe even a squad and a 5 man if you just go for power armored stuff. The whole schtick of GK this edition and with this index, is that you play the game in a strange way. We don't really try to engage and kill stuff, in a lot of match ups (necron, knights ) we can't even hurt the other side. The whole game is about jumping around, Rapid Ingressing, doing draigo charges on weak enemy units. Often it is not even worth to try to move an engage a mid level opponent unit, if it means that on their turn they can wipe out your squad.

Librarians are IMO crucial, even with the changes GK got affected in the last patch. I often run 3 , in units or as solo hidding outside of LoS, droping on objectives blowing up something (with good rolls) when 3 of them focus on something. I think they will stay an important part of the army, plus with everything costing less now, you don't have to worry that you won't fit draigo in to your army. In general unless the codex changes it, and it doesn't always happen, GK are what some call a high skill army. Thing is they aren't just high skill they are also tedious to play with extremly long turns, which opponents always hate. Especialy outside of tournaments.

ah and even with the point drops, I still think that NDKs are trap units. They can't be replaced by anything else, and they are the only source of GK anti shoting and higher str melee. But they are still super squishy and against tough targets, they still bounce. Of course with armies that are hard to play and hard to optimise, you also run in to the aspect, of it not being so crucial what you run. If you run in to necron or eldar post the newest changes, it still won't matter, if you have or don't have NDKs in your army.

-

Karol wrote:

 dreadblade wrote:

No, we were just playing a mission from the BRB.

Condolance then. After the changes you will probably fit a whole extra squad of something, maybe even a squad and a 5 man if you just go for power armored stuff. The whole schtick of GK this edition and with this index, is that you play the game in a strange way. We don't really try to engage and kill stuff, in a lot of match ups (necron, knights ) we can't even hurt the other side. The whole game is about jumping around, Rapid Ingressing, doing draigo charges on weak enemy units. Often it is not even worth to try to move an engage a mid level opponent unit, if it means that on their turn they can wipe out your squad.

Well I had a rematch today (again using a combat patrol mission) and won! It went all 5 rounds, and I only won by 5VP, but it proved it can be done. It took a lot of thought, but Crowe and the GMDK both survived to the end and did lots of work in CC as well as shooting. Very satisfying

Playing in a 6 round tournament this weekend, here's my list:

Draigo + 10 Termies (Banner, Apoth, 2x incin)
Voldus + 5 Pallies (Banner, 3x psycan)
Libby (Sigil) + 5 Termies
Libby
5 Termies
GKSS 5x (incin)
GKI 5x (incin)
Purifiers 5x (2x incin)
Callidus

I think 10 Termies with Draigo might be too much, but I wanted to see how it goes. I usually have 10 Pallies with Voldus, but the extra 30pts let me squeeze in the Assassin.

The Solo Yolo LOLO is interesting bc he can fit anywhere except when the opponent has been EXTREMELY careful in screening out even a single base, which they usually aren't. Sniping an Autarch or Farseer on T1 is a great play., and a 2+/4++ in cover is hard to shift, or he just disappears again.

The Callidus synergies really well instead of a second Strike Squad, because it gets our army rule but doesn't count against the 3 units, essentially giving us a 4th unit to hop around with. And since we're already used to doing weird things like completely sacrificing killing power in favor of investigating a corner, we don't have to change our mindset as much as other people, who may be tempted to aggro the Assassin or ignore its redeploy options.

Really enjoying the play style of the Grey Knights.
I have been using my Paladins as a 1st turn brick around an objective and x6 Incinerators or Psycannons. Most often the center field, but hard to time if I need 2 CP to protect them from being shot at for a round.
I'm working on adding some Inquisitors to help with CP.

I had an interesting game last night. I teamed up with a Sisters player and we went up against 2,000 pts of IG. At 2,000 pts there were so many IG tanks and infantry on the table that it really hampered teleporting shenanigans. There was practically no opportunity to get behind the IG even in the latter rounds of the game. Given that you can't charge when you use the 3" Prognosticated Arrival strat I didn't use it (it would have meant instant annihilation for any unit teleporting in). It was a very different game to the 1,000 pts games I'm used to playing with this army.

Are interceptor squads or purgation squads generally better?

BillyN831 wrote:
Are interceptor squads or purgation squads generally better?

The extra movement for GKI is really useful for secondaries that you, for whatever reason, cannot teleport onto.
However, either of those options really pale in comparison to the damage output of Purifiers, who are only 5pts more than GKI (per 5 guys) and 5pts less than Purgators.
There's a niche use for Purgators with incinerators, which have innate Ignores Cover and Torrent. The other heavy weapons don't have enough AP to be good into cover AND -1 to hit.

I tried 3 Purgation Squads, each with 4 Psycannons, huddled together out of LoS. They did some work against my opponents Orks. Completely destroyed his bike squad in one volley and a Kan mob the turn after. The low AP does kind of suck but your opponents have to respect the volume of shots.

Stormravens...

They're really good, but the -1 damage thing isn't much use against D6+2 damage weapons. We really need an invuln now that Sanctuary isn't a thing in 10th.

So here we are - a new codex but no range refresh.

I'm honestly at a bit of a loss now. I desperately want to paint my remaining units and buy more (looking at you Dreadknights and Terminators), but I just can't bring myself to invest the time and money given that it now seems likely we'll get a range refresh in 11th edition.

What's everyone else doing?

 dreadblade wrote:
So here we are - a new codex but no range refresh.

I'm honestly at a bit of a loss now. I desperately want to paint my remaining units and buy more (looking at you Dreadknights and Terminators), but I just can't bring myself to invest the time and money given that it now seems likely we'll get a range refresh in 11th edition.

What's everyone else doing?

My Castellan Crowe (being the only GK in scale with the other Marines is becoming a Blood Raven).

Everything else is on hold... I was extremely disappointed in the "new Dreadknight Kit," so I won't be investing in that.

And I get depressed thinking about how much it will cost to upgrade (aka buy off the internet) appropriately sized parts for my Grey Knights.

I do have the urge to convert the Saturine Dread to a Dreadknight... but to be honest, I can't seem to build up enough enthusiasm to work on the army....

As I fear an 11th edition refresh will invalidate everything I build now... and I can't afford to build an army for it to be useless within a year or 2.

 dreadblade wrote:
So here we are - a new codex but no range refresh.

I'm honestly at a bit of a loss now. I desperately want to paint my remaining units and buy more (looking at you Dreadknights and Terminators), but I just can't bring myself to invest the time and money given that it now seems likely we'll get a range refresh in 11th edition.

What's everyone else doing?

Re-wrote my list the other day since I lost access to my plasma cannon toting Servitors.

And at the current pts the list got better!
Yes, I lost 2 squads of Servitors. :(
But I gained 2 5x units of Purifiers - way better saves, OC1, can do actions, 2 psicannon, 3 SB, melee capable, & can be bounced around.
My opponent was not pleased to see this improvement....

The downside?
● I don't have ANY leftover pts atm
So no enhancements & I hope that the next time the pts are screwed with that nothing I'm using gets a hike.

So i put this revised list against a WE force this past Fri.
I tabled the WEs at the beginning of T4.
I only lost 2 Dreadnoughts.
I'm quite pleased with how my list works.
Next up I'll check out the 2nd+ detachments.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

My Castellan Crowe (being the only GK in scale with the other Marines is becoming a Blood Raven).

To be honest, he's about the only model that won't be invalidated (bar my Stormraven too).

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

I was extremely disappointed in the "new Dreadknight Kit," so I won't be investing in that..

I'd buy more dreadknights except I'm sure they'll get a refresh too. For a start, the terminator pilot is old scale...

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

As I fear an 11th edition refresh will invalidate everything I build now... and I can't afford to build an army for it to be useless within a year or 2.

My thoughts exactly.

Meanwhile, as you guys fret on about your models somehow being "invalidated"?
My RT/early 2e era GK Terminators continue right on fighting.....
30+ year old models, still in use.

I don't think anyone is expecting models to be "invalidated". But if better models are about to be released...

ccs wrote:
So i put this revised list against a WE force this past Fri.
I tabled the WEs at the beginning of T4.
I only lost 2 Dreadnoughts.
I'm quite pleased with how my list works.
Next up I'll check out the 2nd+ detachments.

Sounds Death Guard levels of powerful.

 dreadblade wrote:
I don't think anyone is expecting models to be "invalidated". But if better models are about to be released...

This is what I mean. I've been looking forward to Grey Knights in better proportions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

ccs wrote:
So i put this revised list against a WE force this past Fri.
I tabled the WEs at the beginning of T4.
I only lost 2 Dreadnoughts.
I'm quite pleased with how my list works.
Next up I'll check out the 2nd+ detachments.

Sounds Death Guard levels of powerful.

I doubt it. If it was, I'd think everyone's list would look similar to mine.
When I browse others lists they really don't.
(Unless I'm just not looking in the right places)
Instead they're all loaded up with GMDKs/DKs, named characters + squad etc. Also purpose built for whatever their chosen detachment does.
I bet you could quote thier lists....

And now for a glimpse into my though process:
My force was not built in a coherent fashion (at least not the 1st 1k pts). Or for the types of games most of you play.
It started when RT era termie #5 resurfaced in one of my storage boxes.
Now that my OG termie squad was back together i decided to play them. I looked at "can I ally them like I did back in the day?" A: no (this was before the Agents Codex).
OK, well on Sundays we tend to play big multi-player games where everyone brings a 1k pt force.
So how can I turn 5 termies into a 1k force?
Solution:
A) add two other GK specific units that have made their way into my collection over the years - a NDK & a Stormraven (covered in GK iconography- thanks previous owner....)
B) make all 5 termies characters & add enhancements.
C) add either the Navigator or Spindle Drones from BSF to fill pts & sit on objective/do actions.
I usually went with the Navigator.

Other than the cards? Didn't cost me a dime to make this 1k force.
And it was super easy to transport & manage with 6+ other players in the same game.

When I decided to expand it to 2k for pick up gaming? The 2nd 1k half had specific requirements.
A) address the severe lack of AT capability the 1st half has.

B) I need something to hold Objectives/do secondaries.
(5 single characters, 1 aircraft, & a NDK don't do that very well. Not really a problem if you've got 2-3 teammates on Sunday, but an issue when you're a solo act....)

C) spend as little $ as possible building this out.
So i simply pulled GK compatible units from my vast SM inventory.
Laz-Razorbacks & LC Venerable Dresds take care of the AT work. Plasma cannon Servitor squads were the cheapest thing I could mount in the Razorbacks.
Add 1 box of GK power armor infantry for 2 5x squads. I bitz ordered extra psy-cannons & made both Purgation squads for the volume of fire they could put out.

Replacing the Servitors ment I had to invest in another 10x infantry box. This time I made psycannon Purifier squads.

The fact that the “throw it together” list tabled an opponent without losing significant portions of their own army is something I’d consider MORE problematic than a meta list doing that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The fact that the “throw it together” list tabled an opponent without losing significant portions of their own army is something I’d consider MORE problematic than a meta list doing that.

Well;
1) Only 1st 1/2 the list is "throw it together".
2) I am fairly good at this stuff.
3) But it's not too difficult vs typical WE atm.
Mostly it's just target priority, knowing how/where to bring the firepower to bear, & positioning. Skills that apply to every army.

Now the Ork Dreadmob list I played against Sunday? Much tougher fight. I lost 3/4 of the force. But in the end I still outscored them, so...

How many psycannons come in a paladin box and how many can a 10 paladin squad choose?