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Is it legal?

It seems a bit too over powered to have powerfists hitting first.

no.
I called them up at gw and asked about it and they said that powerfists go last always.
They also say that the 1 for initiative does not go up to 2 when furious charge is in effect (which really ticks me off, but oh well).

So what happens when a necron and a slaanesh marine with a powerfist square off?

This seems a bit... wierd. Was this a GW store or a 800 number sort of thing?

@Slider, Actually whoever you asked at GW was wrong. The wording of the doom siren in the 3rd printing of the Chaos codex has been changed to read "a model with a doom siren will always strike first regardless of cover or weapons." What that means is that before you even get to the initiative steps the doom siren model strikes. Yes it is both legal and powerful. There was an earlier thread here in YMDC and this was the final conclusion.

BTW, why would you ever ask a GW redshirt or one of their 1-800 guys anything rule related? Do you think GW has special training seminar for their employees where they discuss the rules of the game? Do you think they are privy to "secret FAQ's" that we are not aware of? Do you think the IQ of the average red shirt is greater than yours?

Darrian

Unanswerable.
Doomsirens always strike first, yet Powerfists always strike at Initiative 1. It can be argued either way.
Until it has been FAQed, don't do it. While I've never seen anyone actually try and use it, the simple mention of it causes heated debates.

@Darrian13
Edit your post, you've got a typo. The 3rd printing codex says "a model with a doomsiren...", not doomfist. Lets not insert anymore confusion into the debate than there already is!

If it is legal I think Darrian13 may have coined a phrase for a new piece of wargear:

Doomfist- 45/30 points - Can be given to an Aspiring Champion or Independant Character. This weapon nullifies any ability to counter attack this unit. The unit destroys all that oppose who wield it. It is said that if Horus was a follower of Slaanesh alone, the Imperium would governed by him. See BROKEN.


In all seriousness I tried it out. I was using a chosen marked squad against some tyranids. 3 powerfists with doomsirens killed a Carnifex and kept tyranids at bay. I scared away GENESTEALERS with marines. I dont know how I feel about being able to strike first no matter what. It does seem broken and I guess from here on out Ill play it according to the consensus of the community. Besides a bunch of marked chosen with daemonic strength and power weapons could still turn the tide heavily in the favor of the children of Slaanesh.

I've seen it used. It is very broken, but seems legal by the wording in the 3rd printing of the codex. It is definitely one of those gray areas that seems bizarre, so I avoid doing it with my slaneesh army, just to avoid moans and tanked scores in tourneys. Plus by taking other abilities I still can get Strength 8 anyways.. Capt K

I agree that it would be cool and very powerful and I would like to have it, however, I will take the GW rep's word over anyone elses (especially here) anyday. That doesn't mean you have to take my word for it, but investigate it fullly if you must.

S1ider, Im just looking for his rational. To quote myself from another section on Dakka "I need a little more than BLARG!!! BECAUSE!". In on seriousness, did the rep explain why the powerfist rule overrode the special rule of the doom siren?

Ok I am sorry but hasn't this topic been done to DEATH!?!?!?!

There's this thread..
http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&view=topic&forumid=15&postid=44419

Then there's this one...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&view=topic&forumid=15&postid=60103

Let's do a search first fellas.

They both go unresolved.

One of the reason I could see for it besides the most obvious ones is the fact that there are other places where the CSM codex overrides the Corebook and everyone is perfectly happy with it.

@ Slider. Seriously, why would you take the word of a GW rep? Unless this GW rep was, in fact one of the designers who actually wrote the rules or works with the designers, I am at a loss as to why you think said rep would have any more knowledge of the rules than anyone here. Do you really think that GW spends the time and resources to inform their store employees of rules clarifications and FAQ's? They don't even bother to update the FAQ on their own website. It has not been updated in over a year and a half.

If your system of asking GW reps and getting answers from them worked, we would not need a place like Dakka to figure out these poorly written rules ourselves. That would save us all so much time and effort.

Slider, if on the odd chance you actually found that one GW rep who knows how the rules should be interpretted and can make sense of the rules, PLEASE give me his name and contact info, I have so many questions that I want to have answered.

Darrian

Darrian:

The rules in this situation are a complete contradiction. While the Doom Siren wording says:

"a model with a doom siren will always strike first regardless of cover or weapons."


While the Powerfist wording says:

". . .so strikes with a power fist are always delivered at Initiative 1 (ignore any bonuses for special rules, cover, grenades or wargear, etc.)"


No one can rightfully claim that RAW is clear in this situation. It is quite simply unclear.

I would think that any sportsmanlike Chaos player would take the less advantageous interpretation.

John (Yakface):

I play Chaos in tourneys and I value "sportsmanship" thus, I do not use doom-fists, infiltrating berzerkers or infiltrating demon princes nor do I summon demons from my demon icon on turn 1. While, I believe that I could make a convincing arguement for the legality of any and all of these, I would rather avoid the arguement and focus on winning the game instead of winning the arguement.

I do not use any of these options in "friendly" games because, while these options are strong and I believe can be argued legal, they are not friendly. The point of a friendly game is to have fun, not just to win,

Darrian

The New Chaos FAQ clears this issue up


" Error in the Third Printing of Codex: Chaos Space Marines

? P56 Doom Siren. The correct wording for the close combat effect of a Doom Siren is as follows: - ?In close combat a model with a Doom Siren will always strike in Initiative sequence even if attacking enemy in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them. Enemy who strike first regardless of Initiative are unaffected.?"

That would solve the problem if it was part of the latest FAQ. Unfortunately it is only currently included in the GW sticky posts denoted as being unofficial.

Hopefully GW will add that into the new FAQs that are supposedly "coming soon".

Please excuse me for being dense, but how would that solve the issue? Does the model that "always strikes in initiative sequence" strike at his listed initiative or does he strike at the initiative set by the powerfist?

Darrian

That FAQ would fix the situation because it leaves out the 'regardless of weapon' line.  So a model with a doom siren strikes first, but a powerfist strikes at initiative 1 regardless of any special rules or wargear.  Taking both rules together means the powerfist trumps the doom siren.

Edit:  Actually, I don't understand that FAQ description at all.  Cover doesn't lower the attacker's initiative to 1, it raises the defender's to 10.  So... doom siren allows you to strike enemies in cover at your own initiative, which you do anyway? 

- Oaka

PFist changes at what initiative you strike, hence the "FAQed" wording makes you strike at I1. The current problem is that the present wording of Doom Siren ignores initiative completely.

This is all speculation however. Who knows what the new FAQ will say if they ever release it.

Posted By blue loki on 07/26/2006 7:15 AM
PFist changes at what initiative you strike, hence the "FAQed" wording makes you strike at I1. The current problem is that the present wording of Doom Siren ignores initiative completely.

This is all speculation however. Who knows what the new FAQ will say if they ever release it.

ITS COMING SOON! /sarcasm

Isn't it funny that the Lord of the Rings FAQs and the fantasy FAQ (both marginally necessary) are up, while the 40K ones (critically necessary) are not. Couldn't they post something, and then modify it based on comments? You just know that whatever they post will need to be modified regardless.

I know they took the UK ones down awhile ago. US page still has em though.

it still raises the fact people abused the doom siren and this is what you get for it

It is official now... April 2006 printing of the codex states DS causes models to hit at initiative when charging into cover. - GB

Posted By Green Bloater on 07/30/2006 1:33 PM
It is official now... April 2006 printing of the codex states DS causes models to hit at initiative when charging into cover.

Is the book's title page marked "4th Printing"?

The wording is different for DS in the April 2006 printing, and this date certainly comes after the 3rd printing.

Good point, make sure that it says 4th printing, because I can get a "brand new" codex from my nearby game shoppe and have the clerk swear that is the most up to date codex only to find out that its a 3rd printing.
It would only make sense that the siren would create such a blaring noise that the enemy would basicly be holding their ears rather than their weapons, ie makeing them strike last. But the powerfist discription says that reguardless of bonuses and benifits, powerfist strike last (which would negate ANY bonuses and benefits of other wargear). BUT the doom siren says that reguardless of weapons, you strike first, which would probably negate the "strike last" for powerfist (given my description of the doom siren would make sense). There the confusion and multiple post begin...... and repeat.

Here is a question,
Would the doom siren make sense if going against a dreadnought (given that the living corpse of a space marine inside wouldn't be affected by the sound as much or if any). How about the other walker vehicles that generaly are not living flesh but rather machine? I think I would allow that DS + PF bonus to go against troops and or living vessels, but not to a defiler, wraithlord, or dreadnought.

But then again, this is not about what would make sense, unfortunatly.

Posted By Green Bloater on 07/30/2006 4:02 PM
The wording is different for DS in the April 2006 printing, and this date certainly comes after the 3rd printing.

The problem is:

*GW doesn't include a printing date in their books, so the date itself is not "proof".

*I have a 2nd printing that says much the same thing.

Unless there's some concrete evidence that this is a more recent printing (i.e. "4th Printing" on the title page of the codex), it's not going to end arguments.

I know the company has their problems but why would they print an older version with a later date?

- GB

I think you're misunderstanding me. The issue is:

Unless GW has changed their habits in the last few weeks, there are no print run dates on GW books.

Thus no ability to distinguish a book published in April '06 from one published in April '05 unless the blurb at the bottom of the title page that says "2nd Printing", "3rd Printing", etc. has been updated to read "4th Printing".