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Made in us
Gnawing Giant Rat





Texas

As I recall Hysterical Games is/has shut down. There was some kind of cash-flow issue for them...I do not know if it was their KS projects or the SD deal that led to it, as I am no longer actively watching their communications. I hope that SD can find a solution for all of their customers and backers...it would be a shame for Confrontation to suffer another death...

Urusei Yatsura, Cerebus the Aardvark, Machiavelli, Plato and Happy Days. So, how was your childhood? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It seems like there are a lot of "haters" on this thread. First it was "Sans Detours is going to screw the people from the kickstarter and not follow through" , then it was "the rules can't be written in time", now it's "they don't know miniatures terminology." From what I can see they are moving right along. I can't wait to hear the next iteration of hater complaints. It will probably be "Well, you got tons of minis, but they weren't personally painted by Angel, so they screwed you."
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

Yeah, you're talking like any of those issues got resolved. Did they?

Or is it still looking like SD are going to get sued by Chaosium for breach of contract and close their doors?

Check out my youtube channel at www.youtube.com/channel/UCc8CECcBOeCO-srhlUwf_lQ 
   
Made in gb
Freelance Soldier




Nottingham, England

Not haters, just a lot of people who have seen how projects play out and who see past the cheerleading on the KS comments. As it stands, no backer has anything and they appear to be the target of legal action to recover money they do not have. In Europe that usually results in a company having to close and a third party has to sell assets of that company , often at less than market value, and even if the company as a whole was sold then the new company would have zero obligation towards backers.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Smellingsalts - it wasn't haters it is people pointing out glaring flaws/problems/errors and lack of communication from the KS organisers. Basically there were warning signs and key questions that the organisers did not answer.

These threw into question the validity of their ability to organise and run the KS. I've seen several KS which were presented far better and run far better and they still failed utterly to deliver on product.

Another issue is that KS has been used many times now by companies trying to cover debts. So instead of investing into the new product they are instead partly investing KS funds into that; but then also trying to fund a previous project/cover previous debt. This sets up a nasty cycle, esp when the company isn't drawing income from a regular stream of sales.

Because the company often has no way to resolve its cash flow problem without starting another KS. This keeps loading them with fresh problems over and over. sometimes it can work in the short term, but many times all it does is stretch out the problem for another year and then they collapse.


SD are now really showing problems with several previous KS rights owners now seeking financial compensation from them for unpaid royalties and the company being taken to court. This is REALLY unhealthy for a company and is a sign that they are in a very bad position. We can cross our fingers and hope they fix things ,but even if they do the worse sign is that its very likely that this will be a one hit wonder and Confrontation Resurrection won't come around at all.


It just seems that SD are in a terrible financial mess that they are not going to dig themselves out of.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Not haters, just a lot of people who have seen how projects play out and who see past the cheerleading on the KS comments. As it stands, no backer has anything and they appear to be the target of legal action to recover money they do not have. In Europe that usually results in a company having to close and a third party has to sell assets of that company , often at less than market value, and even if the company as a whole was sold then the new company would have zero obligation towards backers.


I thought if a company was sold as a whole the debts get transferred to, only if they sold the IPs then the debt wont transfer
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

 Original Timmy wrote:
 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Not haters, just a lot of people who have seen how projects play out and who see past the cheerleading on the KS comments. As it stands, no backer has anything and they appear to be the target of legal action to recover money they do not have. In Europe that usually results in a company having to close and a third party has to sell assets of that company , often at less than market value, and even if the company as a whole was sold then the new company would have zero obligation towards backers.


I thought if a company was sold as a whole the debts get transferred to, only if they sold the IPs then the debt wont transfer


It depends how the company is sold. If the company is sold as a functional entity they debts would get sent along with it. However if the company goes into administration then there is still a chance to pick up the components of the company without any of the debt. However administration is messy and many companies that liquidate can find that things go missing. Machines and items get taken home by workers; staff try to hide things to restart again etc.... Plus what you buy might appear without any order or sanity so you could get a load of moulds, quite literally as a pile of moulds that you'd have to sort through to find out just what they are - from master moulds through to those that were tests or failures.

So it can be a huge undertaking just to sort things out. Plus iwth administration its less likely that you'd get the building too, since unless the company directly owned its factory and buildings, those would have defaulted back to their rental owners. So you could well end up with all the bits of a company being shipped to you with no building, warehouse, factory etc... So its not a light undertaking.

And that's before the risk that another bidder on the items outbids you on components. So you can find out that franchises die because one person owns the moulds; another the IP rights; another the designs; another the artwork and the administration company ends up holding onto a load of back end software and such because that didn't sell and that stuff might even just be dumped and totally lost.


Basically it can be a frightful mess; plus even if you don't have to honour the debt that black sky is still over the company even if you relaunch

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Smellingsalts wrote:
It seems like there are a lot of "haters" on this thread. First it was "Sans Detours is going to screw the people from the kickstarter and not follow through" , then it was "the rules can't be written in time", now it's "they don't know miniatures terminology." From what I can see they are moving right along. I can't wait to hear the next iteration of hater complaints. It will probably be "Well, you got tons of minis, but they weren't personally painted by Angel, so they screwed you."


I do hope all will be well, and I would love to be able to pick up a lot of these miniatures at retail too.

And I would love it if Confrontation return to the gaming scene.

However, with all that being said, it is a bit early for you to be taking this victory lap!

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Overread wrote:
 Original Timmy wrote:
 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Not haters, just a lot of people who have seen how projects play out and who see past the cheerleading on the KS comments. As it stands, no backer has anything and they appear to be the target of legal action to recover money they do not have. In Europe that usually results in a company having to close and a third party has to sell assets of that company , often at less than market value, and even if the company as a whole was sold then the new company would have zero obligation towards backers.


I thought if a company was sold as a whole the debts get transferred to, only if they sold the IPs then the debt wont transfer


It depends how the company is sold. If the company is sold as a functional entity they debts would get sent along with it. However if the company goes into administration then there is still a chance to pick up the components of the company without any of the debt. However administration is messy and many companies that liquidate can find that things go missing. Machines and items get taken home by workers; staff try to hide things to restart again etc.... Plus what you buy might appear without any order or sanity so you could get a load of moulds, quite literally as a pile of moulds that you'd have to sort through to find out just what they are - from master moulds through to those that were tests or failures.

So it can be a huge undertaking just to sort things out. Plus iwth administration its less likely that you'd get the building too, since unless the company directly owned its factory and buildings, those would have defaulted back to their rental owners. So you could well end up with all the bits of a company being shipped to you with no building, warehouse, factory etc... So its not a light undertaking.

And that's before the risk that another bidder on the items outbids you on components. So you can find out that franchises die because one person owns the moulds; another the IP rights; another the designs; another the artwork and the administration company ends up holding onto a load of back end software and such because that didn't sell and that stuff might even just be dumped and totally lost.


Basically it can be a frightful mess; plus even if you don't have to honour the debt that black sky is still over the company even if you relaunch


Ah thanks, yes i remember when Spartan Games went into administration(the admin report was really bad on that, backers had the option to be informed and i opted in) and when Hawk Games both sold their IP, i heard it was a nightmare figuring out all the molds etc.

The Myth IP was recently sold to Ulysses NA IIRC and like you say there is a big black cloud over that from the KS and it will be interesting to see how it plays out, hopefully for the good.
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




Even if SD goes bankrupt, it doesn't mean that the IP will be sold, as it's stellar licensing that owns it (a company owned by the financial director of SD if I recall correctly).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




With Prodos, they transferred not only the assets but the staff to Archon, leaving debts, such as AvP, behind. Valley Games tried a similar shell game with the Up Front and D-Day Dice (?) assets.

As for "haters", if a hater is someone who doesn't pledge €299 only to show nothing for it, I and my wallet will happily become a "hater". GameZone's even showing less triage than S-D and that's after five years!

The money's gone, debts are still owed, and, iirc, S-D's owner's other company, Ludik Bazar, is being liquidated. We're not just seeing red flags. We're into Doppler shift territory.

Stellar does have the rights to Confrontation and I have seen an IP return after a disastrous KS. Up Front backers never received product, but it was offered by WotC on DriveThruRPG.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108765.210

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/24 03:49:41


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







So in short has anything been ressurected yet? Anyone got any miniature, game… something?

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

Yeah, if SD closes all they lose is the debt owed to other companies and any obligation to fulfill the Kickstarter.

The IP isn't with SD so they can do something with it later. They may well be able to produce some resins and sell them, and transfer the moulds to a new company when SD goes down (doing the old selling it for a dollar to the new company as they slide into closure).

I think the Kickstarter is pretty dead, but I think it's been dead from the beginning and the prospect of backers getting stuff was always vanishingly small.

Check out my youtube channel at www.youtube.com/channel/UCc8CECcBOeCO-srhlUwf_lQ 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Honestly I'm not sure if SD can pull the whole "fold company and transfer assets" trick much more. At the very least it will (or at least should) sink future expansion plans, but its also likely skirting the law* and should things make it to court they might have dug themselves a huge nest of problems.


*If it were as simple as SD makes out to just bankrupt a company and lose debt and move assets over to another new company then all the big firms would be doing it!

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




> So in short has anything been ressurected yet? Anyone got any miniature, game… something?

Maybe give it five or ten years before Confrontation resurfaces again? I dunno. Anyone else have any anecdotes of IP's that crashed and burned yet came back again??

I've already mentioned Up Front. We'll see in April what happens to Myth. Myth, however, is not going through the same "hate" as Confrontation is now, and doesn't have the SD taint like Confrontation has.


> *If it were as simple as SD makes out to just bankrupt a company and lose debt and move assets over to another new company then all the big firms would be doing it!

Suddenly, I have a craving for Hostess Twinkies. : https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/06/what-saved-hostess-and-twinkies-automation-and-firing-95-of-the-union-workforce/#2fed2e484dbb

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/24 11:40:38


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Well Confrontation has sort of kicked around for a while. Coolminis (or whatever they are called) picked up at least part of the licence to sell for a while, however their prices were exceptionally high on the models. What I think did keep the game going in some form was the Ukranian recasting company that kept up a supply of models at a more regular market value.

Interestingly that company did stop printing when SD started their big confrontation push with this KS. However whilst the Ukranian has started making their own game and KS (which from what I gather is running pretty smoothly); SD is making a mess of things.



I think what keeps Confrontation going is that its got a pretty loyal home fanbase in France.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block




Yes we still have an active community in France with a fan-made ruleset called conf'fede and based on conf 3.5.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





I was kind of hoping the Ukrainian outfit would start up again...

Insidious Intriguer 
   
Made in ca
Mighty Kroxigor Ancient





California the Southern

That Ukranian company, Legends of Signum, has been putting out regular releases of their own figures for the past few years.

Just finished building their new vampire guy the other day in fact. Posted it on Youtube. Go look.

They haven't done any actual recast Confrontation sculpts in some time. Just their own stuff. Some are very much in the design and spirit of Confrontation though...

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Honestly I hope the Ukrainian just focuses on their own game. Drop all the recasting and just focus on their own product. Far healthier for the market to broaden it and remove legal issues.


A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Agree…I do keep getting constant news on FB about Legends of Signum minis and some of the sculpts actually look awesome. As for confrontation I get nothing so I assumed it was dead… actually I assume that it did not even resurrected in the first place.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Well, I get there are a lot of gun-shy people on this thread, but the fact that they put out a statement telling you what was up and where they are at in the process is enough for me, and the rest is just wild speculation. They are not going to be sued out of existence. Chaosium is not exactly a titan of industry. How Chaosium is still in the industry is what amazes me. Most companies don't want to sue someone out of existence, they just want to get paid. Chaosium has a much better chance of getting paid if Sans Detour is successful.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I don't think Chaosium will be looking to shut them down,

but they've been doing the ask nicely for their cash bit since 2016 and have clearly reached the end of the playing nice process

and if SD are in as fragile a shape as it appears they are (rather than just being actual crooks who aren't paying deliberately) and court mandated settlement is likely to be enough to sink them

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




> How Chaosium is still in the industry is what amazes me.

Bit OT, but Chaosium, under Charlie Krank, was not run well, and their 7th Edition Call of Cthulhu KS campaign (or was that 6th?) overpromised and underdelivered. Sandy Petersen, who originally designed the Call of Cthulhu RPG, along with Greg Stafford et al. took over management, and kept the company from going bankrupt.

> Chaosium has a much better chance of getting paid if Sans Detour is successful.

I remember reading something like this during the Palladium KS. Don't take action against such-and-such company or else they won't deliver product. Sounds like a hostage situation more than a promise to me.

My interpretation of the Chaosium statement is that, after these two years of not being paid royalties, Chaosium doesn't think SD will pay them at all unless they take some sort of action.

I don't think anyone, least of all backers, will see anything. Backers, without forcing any obligation from SD, are at the end of the queue, not that those ahead of them will necessarily receive anything.

I figure Stellar will still have the IP rights to Confrontation. But the people behind Stellar are the same as SD and Ludik Bazar. We *have* seen, with the RIFTS Savage Worlds KS, an example of a company with a good reputation on KS, namely Pinnacle Entertainment Group, successfully run a KS with a license from Palladium, a company which does not, so it's not impossible for Confrontation to come back. And, of course, it's always possible a company will license Confrontation and sell it direct to retail without this crowdfunding risk. But, as Legends of Signum and many videogames have shown, a "spiritual successor" that does away with associating itself with a particular company through licensing, is an option as well.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/26 19:33:48


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Haters have been posting statements from Chaosium, American licensors of the Call of Hatethulhu RPG, and Mahyar, whose French RPG, Aventures, translates to Hate in English.
Ulule.com is a French crowdfunding site promoting hate.

However, Chaosium has stated from the outset that we do not want ESD's failure to perform its contractual duties to result in Ulule backers not getting the product they have already paid for (although we ourselves have not been paid).

In the past weeks, ESD has finally replied back to us several times, only for communication to go dead again once we ask them to actually do something (e.g., pay past royalties, give us sales figures upon which royalties can be estimated, etc.).

We are understandably concerned that ESD lacks the funds to pay us even the royalties for just the 2017 Ulule.com campaign. We despair of having the two years of unpaid royalties on our work ever being repaid, even in part, by ESD.

Hence, we are taking this unilateral step to at least enable Éditions Sans-Détour to fulfil obligations to their Masks of Nyarlathotep/Day of the Beast Ulule.com backers:

Chaosium will unilaterally grant a license to Éditions Sans-Détour to fulfill the 2017 Ulule.com crowdfunding campaign. We do that despite our concerns that we will never see a cent of the not insubstantial royalties owed by ESD, by ESD’s repeated acts of bad faith, for their serious breach of contract, and copyright and trademark violations. We do that because we don’t want the fans to get punished for someone else’s deeds.
This license DOES NOT permit Éditions Sans-Détour to sell Masks of Nyarlathotep/Day of the Beast to game stores, distributors, or online. It ONLY allows ESD to fulfill the Ulule crowdfunding campaign to existing backers and nothing more. Nor does it waive ESD of its obligation to pay Chaosium the royalties owed. Chaosium reserves all rights to seek legal relief against ESD as specified under its (now-lapsed) contract with ESD.
We’ve tried to work with ESD to move past what is obviously a difficult period in their company’s finances, but not only have we not received any royalty payments for books sold since the end of 2016 - we haven’t even received sales data upon which royalties could be estimated. Our requests for this information have been ignored. As we originally noted, Éditions Sans-Détour has long been a valued part of the Call of Cthulhu family, and we are saddened that we have been unable to resolve these matters in a constructive manner.


https://www.chaosium.com/blogchaosium-unilaterally-issues-limited-license-extension-so-ditions-sansdtour-can-fulfil-their-obligations-to-ululecom-backers/

"I have read the latest press release from the publisher SANS-DÉTOUR,

which does not hesitate to charge me with the project's" freeze ", to report information that could be covered by the confidentiality of the exchanges, and clearly defamatory, so I intend to assert my right of reply

here, which will be brief and very clear:

without payment of royalties since the fundraiser and after months to question my editor on this subject, I was forced to bring in my legal adviser, without any more success.

In addition, in the face of persistent silence, and in the absence of factual information on the fundraising, I could only take note of the suspension of the contract. SANS-DETOUR has been duly informed beforehand and repeatedly, as it should, by official means. To my great regret, the discussion is interrupted today. The expected answer to these questions belongs to SANS-DETOUR.

As for the allegations of SANS-DETOUR with regard to my rights as author, I leave it to the "legal" to take care of it. The termination of the project does not in any way result in the production of any license agreement.

This situation is a real heartbreak for me, the AVENTURES project being one of the most motivating and exciting of my career. If out of respect for the community invested in this project, informing is essential, this information must respect certain principles. "

Source: http : //urlz.fr/8rRb


https://fr.ulule.com/aventures-le-jeu/news/communique-201354/

Additional tweets and hate : https://twitter.com/MJmahyar/status/1076481485992091654



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/01 04:57:18


"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

It's not Haters, it's people with a realistic view of events.

Not paying contractually obligated royalties on a licence for two years should be viewed with alarm.

Check out my youtube channel at www.youtube.com/channel/UCc8CECcBOeCO-srhlUwf_lQ 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Philadelphia PA

Chaosium, American licensors of the Call of Hatethulhu RPG,


Do people genuinely think this is clever?

Not paying contractually obligated royalties on a licence for two years should be viewed with alarm.


Yep, in the adult world not paying your bills has consequences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 19:33:04


 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




I really don't see what could qualifies as "hate" in the posts you showed.

From what I understand, Chaosium didn't get paid any royalties since 2016, and argues that SD not giving them any sales figure is an act of bad faith. They consider SD isn't actively trying to solve this issue (no replies, not giving the information needed). I didn't see any post from SD saying otherwise, so it looks like it's true.
And Chaosium allowing SD to use their license for free for the Ulule campaign, just to help them get the product to the backers, shows good faith on their part. I really don't see how anyone could see that as a hate post…

The Mahyar/SD argument is a bit different. I didn't follow everything, but SD says they can't fulfill their engagement because Mahyar didn't provide the required license agreement. On the other side, Mahyar says he canceled the contract because he didn't get paid any royalties, but doesn't want to go into details for legal reasons.
At least one of them is misrepresenting the truth, but without any inside information I can't see which one does.
This argument is however relevant to the Confrontation kickstarter, because it reveals difficulties (both financial and in their professional relationships) that SD is having. They might not be at fault here (I really have no clue), but it does impact the company badly, and it is concerning for the KS's backers.
Also, these is two sides arguing, and fighting a legal battle, each giving their side of the story. I don't see how you automatically assign these as hate posts.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Smellingsalts wrote:
It seems like there are a lot of "haters" on this thread. First it was "Sans Detours is going to screw the people from the kickstarter and not follow through" , then it was "the rules can't be written in time", now it's "they don't know miniatures terminology." From what I can see they are moving right along. I can't wait to hear the next iteration of hater complaints. It will probably be "Well, you got tons of minis, but they weren't personally painted by Angel, so they screwed you."


Folks, my post was a reference to Smellingsalt's post. I'm as realistic (et al) as the rest of you. In fact, I tracked down the original statements and posted them.

"And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







I stopped reading at "haters have"

So any minis produced yet? Any production pics?

   
 
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