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This weekend the following situation occurred:

A unit of DE assaulted an IG squad in open terrain.  The combat occurred such that 3 IG models were base to base with the attacking DE, 3 IG were with in two inches of IG models in base to base, and 4 models were outside the combat.

The DE kill 5 models at int 5 or more (really doesn't matter, higher then the IG).  I removed 5 models, so that I retained Close order drill bonus from being base to base; including all three models in base to base contact with the DE.

I then pick up a die, to roll my attacks.  My opponent objected on the basis that I had no models in base to base, and thus could not strike back.

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RAW Page 38

[fluff text]...  The following models in a locked unit are said to be engaged in combat and can fight at full effect:
-  models in base to base contact with and enemy model
-  models within 2 inches of a friendly model of the same unit, which is in base to base contact with an enemy model.

[discussion on how to resolve close combat with engaged models]

...  which models can be taken as casualties, only the engaged models are counted.  The rest of the unit is Locked...  but only the engaged models can fight.

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I don't see how he can support such an argument.  The plain English of the text divides models of an unit in close combat into two categories- models engaged and models locked.

Engaged models can die, and fight.
Locked models watch.

While the text does not specify when you check, there is no verbiage regarding a status change between engaged and locked in a fight occurring in the same player turn.  ie you can swtich depending on pile in moves and losses between close combat phases, but not in the same phase.

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My view is if a model is able to be killed by an enemy, it is engaged and therefore may fight back. 

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Any thoughts on who is correct, and what the proper view of the close combat should be?

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In the game, it was turn 6, so I said why don't I roll, and if it matters, we can pull out the books and discuss.  I missed, so we moved on....  we had 3 min to finish a turn  :lol:

I've always played CC where the models killed are placed on their sides, and are removed once everyone is done with their attacks. I'm not saying that the said killed models get their attacks - that's illegal. I'm saying that for the purpose of knowing who is elligible to fight/die, and knowing who instead is locked, my group leaves the models on the board, marked or turned on their side, so we can determine who can strike back.

In other words, I support your argument and believe that you were well within your right to make the roll.

On a lighter note, this situation sounds vaguely familiar. I had to watch, for three turns, as my opponent's Chaos Lieutenant slowly picked apart two Storm Trooper squads, and then proceeded to go after my Sentinel before I could finally cut him down. I guess I was thanking god that my 'Elite' models were only 10 points a piece.

CK

but a model can only be engaged if it is BtB and can only be locked(and useful) if within 2" of an engaged model. Once there are no more models in BtB the assault ends as there is no one to hit. Its exactly the same for IC's if there is no one in BtB with the IC, then he can't hit anything.

Haranin

by the rules he is correct, it does in fact tell you when to remove casulties/models, this is based on the initiative order.

since characters or units with a higher I strike and kill first before the opponant responds.

you as the owning player with the lower I models can choose where to pull your casualties from in the group of models actually engaged in the fight(and able to be killed),. you chose to pull the ones in BtB. since everybody else swings after they died because of lower I they are no longer in BtB or within 2" of a model in BtB and thus cannot swing back. had you pulled the second row and 3/4 of the first you would have gotten at least 1 attack back. then the 4 guys in the back would have piled in at the end of the combat assuming they didn't run..

 

let me give you an example of what happened to me last weekend

i had a 4 man squad of terminators  in a small group all within 2" of each other. i was asulted by 2 different squads. one on the left and one on the right. the squad on the right has a higher I than the one on the left and since i had powerfists i always go at I1.

the squad on the right did a number of wounds and i failed 2 saves. i strategically choose to remove the 2 on the left that were in BTB contact with the other lower I squad. that squad now did not get to swing as nothing was in BTB with themwhen thier I order came up, but i did strike back with my remaining 2 terminators with powerfists on the squad to the right. pile in moves and such still happen at the end of the combat and both units are still locked but it allowed my terrminators to avoid additional attacks that might have killed them before they could swing back.

 

Haranin,

You seem to have missed reading page 41 ( "Suffering Wounds & Removing Casualties" ).

It clearly explains that the status of engaged models is checked at each Initiative step.

So at the time your guardsman attack, if none of the models are in base contact with the enemy, then your models will not get to attack back.

 

On the upside, you also can't be run down if you have no engaged models. So if you break, you always get away. Cheer.

Just to add a side note to what Yak's pointed out:

This particular tactic - removing models in base-to-base, thus breaking close combat - is something Tau and Necron players often use to salvage their units in close combats they have no chance of winning.

By removing the models in B2B, if your own unit breaks and runs, the other unit cannot sweeping advance you.  As you are no longer engaged, all they can do is consolodate as you fall back - exceedingly useful as a defenisve use of this particular rule to preserve as much firepower as possible, provided you can get your unit to break.

(That etherial reroll morale thing?  Priceless for this!)

Your trade is an inability to strike back if your initiative is low.

*shrugs* 

But yeah, it's been that way from the day the BGB dropped.

Ishi