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Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





But female marines, no. Just for once someone needs to stand up to these bullies and refuses to back down. Don't let them bully us into submission.


Why do you feel like including female marines would be bullying you, and why do you feel so combative about the idea? Why are you making this some kind of culture war, when it isn't?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




And here we are at the end of the argument!

I object to women being represented in the hobby because it will cost me more money!

I'm willing to bet the majority of people on this thread don't even play Astartes, they just want to see a better version of the hobby.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Because people are scared that if the dreaded wiminz come into their hobby space they won't be allowed to make rude/inappropriate comments. That or something about fragile egos.

I've had Matt ignored for some time and looking at their posts reminded me that they have no idea what they're talking about and why I ignored them in the first place.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Matt Swain wrote:
As to more female models and presentation in 40k, fine, as long as they are sold in their own box sets or sprues and only people wanting them have to pay for them. That's fine with me, if the people who want to use them pay 100% for them, fine.



I'll be honest, I'm kind of confused as to how you think this is something that would play out.

Because in my head, it'd go a little something like this:

GW does some kind of small story event thing where a great crisis happens, yadda yadda, some world or chapter is threatened with extinction. Guilliman is like 'we need moar spess mehrines!' and his brand new high lord of terra buddy Vahl says 'well its weird then that you only recruit from half the population, have we tried Belligerent Carl's new primaris space marine process with female candidates yet?' then they try it, it works, and whatever the next wave of primaris models comes out comes out with a mix of male and female heads. Whatever older marine designs they haven't soft-replaced yet, say a unit of primaris with missile launchers, a unit of jump pack assault primaris, and a unit of gravis with Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers. Maybe at the same time, GW puts out a separate sprue with just a bunch of heads and such you can buy for their standard upgrade kit 15$ price point.

It seems like in your head there'd be like, a pink box of "for her" space marines that is the same as Intercessors but manditorily all women and 10$ more expensive. Why would that be your default assumption? The new sisters of battle kits aren't more expensive than the immediately preceding primaris space marine kits they came out with. And they didn't do this when they put female models into the Stormcast Eternals - they just included female models in the new wave of Stormcast stuff they were already coming out with.

Eschers cost the same amount as every other Necromunda gang. The secondary gang boxes they put out for each one costs the same. The new Necron Warriors kit, the new Tau fire warriors kit, and the new Ork Boyz kit are all presumably going to be more expensive than their predecessors, despite only one of them adding in female heads. It's almost like...new kits cost more, 100% of the time. The newest, all-male space marine kits, cost more than the all-female Daughters of Khaine kits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 16:05:05


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 the_scotsman wrote:
I think it's much more likely that a woman walking into a gw store would be more interested in the setting that shows women and men fighting alongside eachother as equals than the setting where the trailer shows a woman fighting evil aliens, until there's an alien that's just too big and strong for her, so she goes and prays for a much bigger stronger man to show up and heroically stab the alien.

And in the game the women are in their own all-women faction, where you have to be catholic nuns while the boys can be romans, commandos, angels, vikings, monks, crusaders, mongols, dragon warriors, knights, spiky bad guys, egyptians, bezerkers, or diseased plague zombie mutants, all with their own unique dedicated model ranges and codexes.

And the women and the men don't have the same stats, actually the women are just about half as effective as the men - while in the other setting, they're the same faction and they fight in the same units.

I dunno. I dont actually have GW's numbers. I just know that locally, the 40k scene is 100% completely all dudes, and the AOS scene is basically 50-50.


Exactly you dont have any statistics or data to support any assertation of any issues apart from some anecdotal things people say on the internet. And we know how people on the internet are always honest and not biased...

The very assertion that a shop full of men is "odd" is a weird sexist take.. The same-store sells AOS... By your reasoning that would discourage women from AOS just as much as 40k... Yet you claim 50/50 split in AOS. Do you see a problem with this argument?

What a weird take... The very first scene is all about SOB narrating and SOB dramatically rocking up and saving a female guard soldier? So female saving females in the first 30 seconds... So is that an issue ? It seems liek you are looking for an issue...
Having a super-power to literally pray a new arm is not somehow OP/Cool?
You are so jaded you cannot see the fact SOB are badass and cannot see past the aesthetics of "boob plate"
Do you think a woman would more find representation with a female form or a male form? If most marines are wearing helmets (as they should) how do you distinguish fem marines from male marines if not by female form?

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats.. They are just DIFFERENT in what they do and how they act. Different factions are well... different. Just because they have different stats in-game does not make SOB a worse army...

Also, you are confusing being male with SM... SM can be all of those things because they are SM...
If you want to argue that SM are waaaay to prevalent in 40k where they basically overshadow any and all factions then I totaly agree. And making more SM but with vaginas but also looking more or less the same, and cranking out new SM marketing and a flood of fem marine kits is the last thing this setting / game needs.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 16:17:15


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





No, the_scotsman is right. The sister is cool against chaff robot monsters but as soon as a strong one shows up she has to pray for a man to save her.
Praying an arm back (oh look, that trope of women being good healers!) is cool, but not as cool as destroying a huge alien robot, something only manly soldiers can do.

He also never said it was "odd" that it is 100% men playing 40k.

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats

I mean, S3 T3 1W vs S4 T4 2W is like, very clearly worse. A Sister would get creamed by a Space Marine almost effortlessly.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".

yea, glad you know better. Although it's really strange that you would even say this? This is like, really insane to write.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






 Argive wrote:


If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".


Men are not Crab and are therefore inferior.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So honest question: when was the literal last time anyone saw a female player (Not mom purchasing something, but a female playing the game of 40k or AOS) in a GW store? I have seen exactly one, and it turned out they preferred a He/Him pronoun base. I have never once in 4 years seen a woman in a GW store that wasn't a guardian or purchasing a present for a person.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Andykp wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.

Lets say you are a complete lay person/woman who has never heard of Warhammer 40k

Google Warhammer 40k.. and you go to the 40k site

https://warhammer40000.com/

The very first thing you see is a HUGE MOVIG IMAGE MOVIE of a SOB walking towards the screen. and then the whole trailer thing happens where its all KABOOM!!!! PEW PEW PEW!! all about SOB and Marines kicking some evil Necron ass. Its only possible to tell one of the fighters character is female because she starts her pistol without helmet.

As a bystander who knows nothing about 40k, you can obviously tell that in the setting there are women. Who kick ass and wear power armour. Its very apparent these blue guys are obviously part of the same "team" - The human team.

So how does this conversation go when you walk into a GW store?

Random customer(female) - Hey I saw trailer for 40k and I'm really interested in. I was walking by and thought Id check out your shop. What can you tell me about the guys in the trailer?

GW employee: *gives run down of 40k in the fututre humanity beset from all sides blah blah . So in the trailer you saw IOM forces of Sisters of battle and Space Marines fighting of the Evil ancient necrons.

Customer A: Ohh thats cool. And they fight together?

GW Staff: yes they can do. They their own factions factions and models which you you can use to play the game but you dotn have to etc. and there are rules etc. etc. Books. etc. etc. Then goes through to briefly explain each faction.

Customer: *has a walk around the shop* Okay I will buy into faction *tyranids*(or SOB if the gender bias is as important as its made out to be I guess?) what do you recommend I start with?/ No sorry this really doesn't seem like my thing maybe some other time.

Apart from the GW predatory "you need to buy ALL THIS STUFF" targeting newbies and parents... and just a glance at the prices which would scare away most sane people.. At which point would a woman feel not represented in 40k because of marines as a new comer to 40k today? It certainly isn't the marketing. And unless they know the whole history of 40k, all the lore and all the legacy stuff. They would have no idea to the contrary.

I think a lot of you are coming at this from a very jaded veteran position and are creating problems out of something that is being addressed... Its just not addressed in the way you want it to and that's the part you don't like.

On a different tangent:

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.


Through your male lens you see no issue with that. But that’s just your experience. Imagine the same women sees the same video, she isn’t into fetish nuns and boob armour, she still goes to a go store, male staff and male customers only. Already uncomfortable she asks about the marines when in the shop, as they take up half the shelf space and there’s a giant cardboard cut out one by the till and half the people in there are painting them, there are cool a marine armies in display and there’s a big diorama in the shop window full of marines.

The shop assistant tells her about the cool supersoldiers and all the awesome models and stories available to them. The whole spin off game set 10000 years earlier that’s pretty much marine vs marine. It all sounds great, she’s interested and excited to play, the shop assistant sets up a demo game, she looks at the models and asks, are there female marines though?….

No, men only! the guys in the shop look suspiciously on.

Why? Because it said so 30 years ago. It would ruin the lore and break the game if we had women marines!

Why? Because the lore can’t even be changed.

Really? Well no, but this bit can’t! Women can’t be marines because they aren’t tough enough, or strong enough and because men are better at Sports and war. (All reasons given in this thread).

Bye.

And if the emperor was a woman? Fine. No issue at all. I’d be perfectly happy if when reborn as the star child she was a little baby girl. ( or if they said she was a woman all a long)


Through my male lense..?? Give me a fugin break. You have no idea what I identify as or what I have between my legs so stop asserting I have a "lense". You are the one that seems to be looking through <insert sex/gender> lense and cant see past what dangles between peoples legs.

GW Sales person:

"these marines are all about helping the weak and protecting people" (salamnders)
"these guys are all about Cold logic and efficiency and power of machine and tech) (iron hands)
"these guys just liek to go really really fast"(White scars)
"these guys are all about building empires and governance" (UM)

GW Sales person: Which ones of these do you think you like the most?

Customer "Do any of them have vaginas and/or identify as women?"

GW sales person: Errrm... not acording to the descriptions I don't think. Im only a GW minimum wage part time staffer... Not sure im qualified to have a discussion about gender.

Customer:" I want the ones with vaginas, that look like me please.(nothing in the sore looks like this woman)
If they don't have vaginas and dont look like me I'm not interested. Goodbye."

Thats how dumb this is..
saying that people will only resonate with things that share their gender/genitals with or look like them is absolutely abhorrent..

Why would the woman be uncomfortable in a store just because the people there have penises? Isn't that sexist? A normal human being in a civilized society wouldn't and shouldn't give a crap... Stop with your divisive nonsense rhetoric that women need any kind of special treatment.

Why would the same woman in the same store have no problem with AOS? Aos seems to be the pinnicle of inclussivity and is being sold at the same store.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 16:53:08


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Rihgu wrote:
No, the_scotsman is right. The sister is cool against chaff robot monsters but as soon as a strong one shows up she has to pray for a man to save her.
Praying an arm back (oh look, that trope of women being good healers!) is cool, but not as cool as destroying a huge alien robot, something only manly soldiers can do.

He also never said it was "odd" that it is 100% men playing 40k.

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats

I mean, S3 T3 1W vs S4 T4 2W is like, very clearly worse. A Sister would get creamed by a Space Marine almost effortlessly.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".

yea, glad you know better. Although it's really strange that you would even say this? This is like, really insane to write.


No, the sisters were holding the line against the necrons til help arrived, which many male forces do in the imperium.

Healing her arm was an act of faith in her god, not in a man. Also we saw some marines killed by a shot the sister's faith saved her from.

In the chapel she held her own against the skorp face to face, blade to blade. The marine attacked it from behind while she engaged it face to face.

We saw marines curt down by skorps in the battle who didn't hold their own as long as the sister did.

The sister returned with reinforcement, the intelligent thing to do, and aided the marines.

Neither a stock marine of a sister could really engage a skorp lord in melee by themselves, so they attacked it head on side by side as equals in the fight against humanities enemies.

The sisters are not as strong, large, tough or durable as a marine. They are as brave, professional, competent, dedicated and determined as marines are. Their faith gives them effective abilities marines do not have. They are equal to marines as defenders of humanity in ways besides simple brute strength and toughness. A sister will die as well as a marine to serve the emperor and protect humanity, and having less toughness, wounds and armor doesn't make them less willing to face death than a marine.

The video in no way denigrated women, nor did it make them "mary sues". it was once of gw's best videos.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Spoiler:
Rihgu wrote:
No, the_scotsman is right. The sister is cool against chaff robot monsters but as soon as a strong one shows up she has to pray for a man to save her.
Praying an arm back (oh look, that trope of women being good healers!) is cool, but not as cool as destroying a huge alien robot, something only manly soldiers can do.

He also never said it was "odd" that it is 100% men playing 40k.

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats

I mean, S3 T3 1W vs S4 T4 2W is like, very clearly worse. A Sister would get creamed by a Space Marine almost effortlessly.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".

yea, glad you know better. Although it's really strange that you would even say this? This is like, really insane to write.


In the same way an IG woman cant takes on a Warrior and needs to be saved.. What is the difference?
You only seem to see one thing from one angle. Why is woman saving other woman ok but man saving woman not ok?
Tell me how that's not somehow a wierd sex/gender obsessed take?
Im responding to the overall sentiment of the thread.

Any notion/mention with SOB being badass awesome is met with "eeewww boob plate is sexist Ewwww"

This whole conversation is so stupid I feel like my brain cells are dying.
I admit I dont have all that many left through years of abuse but comon people..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Argive wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I think it's much more likely that a woman walking into a gw store would be more interested in the setting that shows women and men fighting alongside eachother as equals than the setting where the trailer shows a woman fighting evil aliens, until there's an alien that's just too big and strong for her, so she goes and prays for a much bigger stronger man to show up and heroically stab the alien.

And in the game the women are in their own all-women faction, where you have to be catholic nuns while the boys can be romans, commandos, angels, vikings, monks, crusaders, mongols, dragon warriors, knights, spiky bad guys, egyptians, bezerkers, or diseased plague zombie mutants, all with their own unique dedicated model ranges and codexes.

And the women and the men don't have the same stats, actually the women are just about half as effective as the men - while in the other setting, they're the same faction and they fight in the same units.

I dunno. I dont actually have GW's numbers. I just know that locally, the 40k scene is 100% completely all dudes, and the AOS scene is basically 50-50.


Exactly you dont have any statistics or data to support any assertation of any issues apart from some anecdotal things people say on the internet. And we know how people on the internet are always honest and not biased...

The very assertion that a shop full of men is "odd" is a weird sexist take.. The same-store sells AOS... By your reasoning that would discourage women from AOS just as much as 40k... Yet you claim 50/50 split in AOS. Do you see a problem with this argument?

What a weird take... The very first scene is all about SOB narrating and SOB dramatically rocking up and saving a female guard soldier? So female saving females in the first 30 seconds... So is that an issue ? It seems liek you are looking for an issue...
Having a super-power to literally pray a new arm is not somehow OP/Cool?
You are so jaded you cannot see the fact SOB are badass and cannot see past the aesthetics of "boob plate"
Do you think a woman would more find representation with a female form or a male form? If most marines are wearing helmets (as they should) how do you distinguish fem marines from male marines if not by female form?

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats.. They are just DIFFERENT in what they do and how they act. Different factions are well... different. Just because they have different stats in-game does not make SOB a worse army...

Also, you are confusing being male with SM... SM can be all of those things because they are SM...
If you want to argue that SM are waaaay to prevalent in 40k where they basically overshadow any and all factions then I totaly agree. And making more SM but with vaginas but also looking more or less the same, and cranking out new SM marketing and a flood of fem marine kits is the last thing this setting / game needs.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".


Yep, 100%. That's why my favorite army is Orks and I have several times more Orks than any other army - I just hate men so much.

If you're talking about the perspective of a new person, unfamiliar with the hobby, they're not going to understand the lore complexities of why Astartes are bigger and stronger and more powerful because they have nineteen hearts and spit acid and shoot laser beams when they orgasm. They're going to see that the 'girl army' is wearing similar armor, but when they play their introductory game of kill team, they're probably going to notice that the 'boy army' has twice as many attacks, +1 strength, +1 to hit in melee, +1 toughness, twice as many wounds, and a better gun. A sister of battle, in game terms is worth just a hair over 1/2 of a space marine.

And theyre going to contrast that to the other game system, designed by the exact same company, and probably notice that their faction of super powerful soldiers just...gets to have women in it.

If we're talking about first impressions, walk into the shop and look around and play a small demo game, this is going to be an IMMEDIATELY OBVIOUS comparison between the two systems of AOS and 40k, even if we take for granted (which I do, before you go making assumptions) that this is a person who sees badass lady in power armor and thinks: "awesome."

I really do not think that the image of the current SOB model range is anywhere close to being something that would repel a nerdy woman on the grounds of 'ew, sexist'. God knows if they enjoy anything at all related to comic books, or anime, or video games, they've seen and probably like far more male-fanservice heavy depictions of female characters. Commander Shepherd's armor from Mass Effect is more sexualised than a sister of battle model.

The only thing I find odd about the particular ratio between the game systems is: Age of Sigmar and 40k are sold in the exact same store at the exact same price points to the exact same group of people who walk in randomly off the street, and as groups go I understand my pool of opponents is MASSIVE. There's probably sixty 40k players and 40 AOS players in the groups I use to set games up, but some core distinction between the two systems is better at attracting more new players to AOS who have never played wargames before (new 40k players almost always have played in older editions, or move from other areas and are existing players) and is also better at attracting women to the game in a general hobby space that's very heavily male of wargaming.

Both games are "head to head competitions" both are dark violent settings, both are extremely expensive, both require you to build and paint your own stuff. Obviously some part of it is purely inertia-based - nobody wants to be "the first woman" just like if you were a dude joining a group that's 100% women you'd feel awkward about it, and the AOS scene basically grew out of nothing while the 40k scene has been continuous, but I do think AOS does a better job in general attracting women because most factions in AOS that look like people are gender integrated, while a solid 80-90% of 40k's marketing material is marines, who are only men.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 Argive wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.

Lets say you are a complete lay person/woman who has never heard of Warhammer 40k

Google Warhammer 40k.. and you go to the 40k site

https://warhammer40000.com/

The very first thing you see is a HUGE MOVIG IMAGE MOVIE of a SOB walking towards the screen. and then the whole trailer thing happens where its all KABOOM!!!! PEW PEW PEW!! all about SOB and Marines kicking some evil Necron ass. Its only possible to tell one of the fighters character is female because she starts her pistol without helmet.

As a bystander who knows nothing about 40k, you can obviously tell that in the setting there are women. Who kick ass and wear power armour. Its very apparent these blue guys are obviously part of the same "team" - The human team.

So how does this conversation go when you walk into a GW store?

Random customer(female) - Hey I saw trailer for 40k and I'm really interested in. I was walking by and thought Id check out your shop. What can you tell me about the guys in the trailer?

GW employee: *gives run down of 40k in the fututre humanity beset from all sides blah blah . So in the trailer you saw IOM forces of Sisters of battle and Space Marines fighting of the Evil ancient necrons.

Customer A: Ohh thats cool. And they fight together?

GW Staff: yes they can do. They their own factions factions and models which you you can use to play the game but you dotn have to etc. and there are rules etc. etc. Books. etc. etc. Then goes through to briefly explain each faction.

Customer: *has a walk around the shop* Okay I will buy into faction *tyranids*(or SOB if the gender bias is as important as its made out to be I guess?) what do you recommend I start with?/ No sorry this really doesn't seem like my thing maybe some other time.

Apart from the GW predatory "you need to buy ALL THIS STUFF" targeting newbies and parents... and just a glance at the prices which would scare away most sane people.. At which point would a woman feel not represented in 40k because of marines as a new comer to 40k today? It certainly isn't the marketing. And unless they know the whole history of 40k, all the lore and all the legacy stuff. They would have no idea to the contrary.

I think a lot of you are coming at this from a very jaded veteran position and are creating problems out of something that is being addressed... Its just not addressed in the way you want it to and that's the part you don't like.

On a different tangent:

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.


Through your male lens you see no issue with that. But that’s just your experience. Imagine the same women sees the same video, she isn’t into fetish nuns and boob armour, she still goes to a go store, male staff and male customers only. Already uncomfortable she asks about the marines when in the shop, as they take up half the shelf space and there’s a giant cardboard cut out one by the till and half the people in there are painting them, there are cool a marine armies in display and there’s a big diorama in the shop window full of marines.

The shop assistant tells her about the cool supersoldiers and all the awesome models and stories available to them. The whole spin off game set 10000 years earlier that’s pretty much marine vs marine. It all sounds great, she’s interested and excited to play, the shop assistant sets up a demo game, she looks at the models and asks, are there female marines though?….

No, men only! the guys in the shop look suspiciously on.

Why? Because it said so 30 years ago. It would ruin the lore and break the game if we had women marines!

Why? Because the lore can’t even be changed.

Really? Well no, but this bit can’t! Women can’t be marines because they aren’t tough enough, or strong enough and because men are better at Sports and war. (All reasons given in this thread).

Bye.

And if the emperor was a woman? Fine. No issue at all. I’d be perfectly happy if when reborn as the star child she was a little baby girl. ( or if they said she was a woman all a long)


Through my male lense..?? Give me a fugin break. You have no idea what I identify as or what I have between my legs so stop asserting I have a "lense". You are the one that seems to be looking through <insert sex/gender> lense and cant see past what dangles between peoples legs.

GW Sales person:

"these marines are all about helping the weak and protecting people" (salamnders)
"these guys are all about Cold logic and efficiency and power of machine and tech) (iron hands)
"these guys just liek to go really really fast"(White scars)
"these guys are all about building empires and governance" (UM)

GW Sales person: Which ones of these do you think you like the most?

Customer "Do any of them have vaginas and/or identify as women?"

GW sales person: Errrm... not acording to the descriptions I don't think. I don't have a gender studies degree to adequately answer what is a woman im only a GW minimum wage part time staffer..

Customer:" I want the ones with vaginas, that look like me please.(nothing in the sore looks like this woman)
If they don't have vaginas and dont look like me I'm not interested. Goodbye."

Thats how dumb this is..
saying that people will only resonate with things that share their gender/genitals with or look like them is absolutely abhorrent..

Why would the woman be uncomfortable in a store just because the people there have penises? Isn't that sexist? A normal human being in a civilized society wouldn't and shouldn't give a crap... Stop with your divisive nonsense rhetoric that women need any kind of special treatment.

Why would the same woman in the same store have no problem with AOS? Aos seems to be the pinnicle of inclussivity and is being sold at the same store.


You don't get to use exclusionary rhetoric, and then cry victim when someone assumes your gender.

Also Lens doesn't have an "e" at the end.
   
Made in us
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 Argive wrote:
Spoiler:
Rihgu wrote:
No, the_scotsman is right. The sister is cool against chaff robot monsters but as soon as a strong one shows up she has to pray for a man to save her.
Praying an arm back (oh look, that trope of women being good healers!) is cool, but not as cool as destroying a huge alien robot, something only manly soldiers can do.

He also never said it was "odd" that it is 100% men playing 40k.

You are asserting that SM are somehow better than sisters because of In-game stats

I mean, S3 T3 1W vs S4 T4 2W is like, very clearly worse. A Sister would get creamed by a Space Marine almost effortlessly.

If I didint know any better I would think you guys really despise men in general and depsie anything at all that might be construed as "male".

yea, glad you know better. Although it's really strange that you would even say this? This is like, really insane to write.


In the same way an IG woman cant takes on a Warrior and needs to be saved.. What is the difference?

Well, nobody is suggesting that IG are the "Space Marine alternative, For Women!", or the face of 40k, or anything relevant. If a Sister of Battle is the proposed alternative for people seeking female Space Marines, they should not need to be saved by Actual Male Space Marines.

You only seem to see one thing from one angle. Why is woman saving other woman ok but man saving woman not ok?

Because one is a historically misogynistic trope and the other isn't?
Tell me how that's not somehow a wierd sex/gender obsessed take?

What?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So honest question: when was the literal last time anyone saw a female player (Not mom purchasing something, but a female playing the game of 40k or AOS) in a GW store? I have seen exactly one, and it turned out they preferred a He/Him pronoun base. I have never once in 4 years seen a woman in a GW store that wasn't a guardian or purchasing a present for a person.


I haven't been in a GW store in a couple of years, but I played Age of Sigmar last weekend, so, last weekend. There were five games going on and more women than men playing.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Yeah the only two women I've ever seen play Warhammer 40 k we're playing drukari and nids. And most women that even show a passing interest out of my friends that don't currently play but are looking at the hobby from outside are drawn towards age of Sigmar. And typically the ones that have female armies like the daughters of Kaine.

   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut








GW Sales person:

"these marines are all about helping the weak and protecting people" (salamnders)
"these guys are all about Cold logic and efficiency and power of machine and tech) (iron hands)
"these guys just liek to go really really fast"(White scars)
"these guys are all about building empires and governance" (UM)

GW Sales person: Which ones of these do you think you like the most?

Customer "Do any of them have vaginas and/or identify as women?"

GW sales person: Errrm... not acording to the descriptions I don't think. Im only a GW minimum wage part time staffer... Not sure im qualified to have a discussion about gender.

Customer:" I want the ones with vaginas, that look like me please.(nothing in the sore looks like this woman)
If they don't have vaginas and dont look like me I'm not interested. Goodbye."

Thats how dumb this is..
saying that people will only resonate with things that share their gender/genitals with or look like them is absolutely abhorrent..

Why would the woman be uncomfortable in a store just because the people there have penises? Isn't that sexist? A normal human being in a civilized society wouldn't and shouldn't give a crap... Stop with your divisive nonsense rhetoric that women need any kind of special treatment.

Why would the same woman in the same store have no problem with AOS? Aos seems to be the pinnicle of inclussivity and is being sold at the same store.


This post nearly brought tears of joy to my eyes.

This is exactly the issue here. Women hate Being judged by their gender, and i think it's wrong to do so as well, if you've seen my protests against the IJ movies for the terrible treatment of women in this you'd know that.

But the people demanding female marines are saying they can't identify with marines based on their gender.

Implying someone's gender is the most important characteristic of their personhood is the mentality used by Aholes who discriminate against women!


I like the sallies because of their mentality and commitment to protect people, not because they have one set of genitals or another.

I despise the iron hands and it has nothing to do with gender.

Honestly, if you want to identify with an army it should be because of their attitudes or what you think is cool, not "What do they have in their pants?"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:45:15


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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In My Lab

Gender is not genitalia.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





 Matt Swain wrote:

This is exactly the issue here. Women hate Being judged by their gender


Correct. They hate being told "you can't be this because you're a girl".
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 LunarSol wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:

This is exactly the issue here. Women hate Being judged by their gender


Correct. They hate being told "you can't be this because you're a girl".


The above post 1000% is the best post of the day.

   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Spoiler:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I mean this whole argument is all sort of out of touch I think.

Lets say you are a complete lay person/woman who has never heard of Warhammer 40k

Google Warhammer 40k.. and you go to the 40k site

https://warhammer40000.com/

The very first thing you see is a HUGE MOVIG IMAGE MOVIE of a SOB walking towards the screen. and then the whole trailer thing happens where its all KABOOM!!!! PEW PEW PEW!! all about SOB and Marines kicking some evil Necron ass. Its only possible to tell one of the fighters character is female because she starts her pistol without helmet.

As a bystander who knows nothing about 40k, you can obviously tell that in the setting there are women. Who kick ass and wear power armour. Its very apparent these blue guys are obviously part of the same "team" - The human team.

So how does this conversation go when you walk into a GW store?

Random customer(female) - Hey I saw trailer for 40k and I'm really interested in. I was walking by and thought Id check out your shop. What can you tell me about the guys in the trailer?

GW employee: *gives run down of 40k in the fututre humanity beset from all sides blah blah . So in the trailer you saw IOM forces of Sisters of battle and Space Marines fighting of the Evil ancient necrons.

Customer A: Ohh thats cool. And they fight together?

GW Staff: yes they can do. They their own factions factions and models which you you can use to play the game but you dotn have to etc. and there are rules etc. etc. Books. etc. etc. Then goes through to briefly explain each faction.

Customer: *has a walk around the shop* Okay I will buy into faction *tyranids*(or SOB if the gender bias is as important as its made out to be I guess?) what do you recommend I start with?/ No sorry this really doesn't seem like my thing maybe some other time.

Apart from the GW predatory "you need to buy ALL THIS STUFF" targeting newbies and parents... and just a glance at the prices which would scare away most sane people.. At which point would a woman feel not represented in 40k because of marines as a new comer to 40k today? It certainly isn't the marketing. And unless they know the whole history of 40k, all the lore and all the legacy stuff. They would have no idea to the contrary.

I think a lot of you are coming at this from a very jaded veteran position and are creating problems out of something that is being addressed... Its just not addressed in the way you want it to and that's the part you don't like.

On a different tangent:

How would people react if The emperor was a woman.


Through your male lens you see no issue with that. But that’s just your experience. Imagine the same women sees the same video, she isn’t into fetish nuns and boob armour, she still goes to a go store, male staff and male customers only. Already uncomfortable she asks about the marines when in the shop, as they take up half the shelf space and there’s a giant cardboard cut out one by the till and half the people in there are painting them, there are cool a marine armies in display and there’s a big diorama in the shop window full of marines.

The shop assistant tells her about the cool supersoldiers and all the awesome models and stories available to them. The whole spin off game set 10000 years earlier that’s pretty much marine vs marine. It all sounds great, she’s interested and excited to play, the shop assistant sets up a demo game, she looks at the models and asks, are there female marines though?….

No, men only! the guys in the shop look suspiciously on.

Why? Because it said so 30 years ago. It would ruin the lore and break the game if we had women marines!

Why? Because the lore can’t even be changed.

Really? Well no, but this bit can’t! Women can’t be marines because they aren’t tough enough, or strong enough and because men are better at Sports and war. (All reasons given in this thread).

Bye.

And if the emperor was a woman? Fine. No issue at all. I’d be perfectly happy if when reborn as the star child she was a little baby girl. ( or if they said she was a woman all a long)


Through my male lense..?? Give me a fugin break. You have no idea what I identify as or what I have between my legs so stop asserting I have a "lense". You are the one that seems to be looking through <insert sex/gender> lense and cant see past what dangles between peoples legs.

GW Sales person:

"these marines are all about helping the weak and protecting people" (salamnders)
"these guys are all about Cold logic and efficiency and power of machine and tech) (iron hands)
"these guys just liek to go really really fast"(White scars)
"these guys are all about building empires and governance" (UM)

GW Sales person: Which ones of these do you think you like the most?

Customer "Do any of them have vaginas and/or identify as women?"

GW sales person: Errrm... not acording to the descriptions I don't think. I don't have a gender studies degree to adequately answer what is a woman im only a GW minimum wage part time staffer..

Customer:" I want the ones with vaginas, that look like me please.(nothing in the sore looks like this woman)
If they don't have vaginas and dont look like me I'm not interested. Goodbye."

Thats how dumb this is..
saying that people will only resonate with things that share their gender/genitals with or look like them is absolutely abhorrent..

Why would the woman be uncomfortable in a store just because the people there have penises? Isn't that sexist? A normal human being in a civilized society wouldn't and shouldn't give a crap... Stop with your divisive nonsense rhetoric that women need any kind of special treatment.

Why would the same woman in the same store have no problem with AOS? Aos seems to be the pinnicle of inclussivity and is being sold at the same store.


You don't get to use exclusionary rhetoric, and then cry victim when someone assumes your gender.

Also Lens doesn't have an "e" at the end.


Thank you. Well said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your only comeback against an argument is repeating it in a funny voice you have already lost mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your only comeback against an argument is repeating it in a funny voice you have already lost mate.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 23:27:27


 
   
Made in us
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New York City

Matt Swain makes huge leaps in logic, and is seeing threats where there are none. What I see is a guy who's ego is tied to his hobby.

As for including female marines into lore and products. I think it needs to understood that it is most possible; that if such a move is done, that the end result may very well be that nothing happens.

We can't expect that simply being inclusive in lore and products or marketing will manage to bring in fans of the opposite sex. Again, there is a reason why toy companies in the past have had girl toy lines, and boy toy lines.

This endeavor must also not be done for the sake of simply being inclusive. We've seen the end results of things done for the simple sake of being inclusive. Finished products that are shallow, ugly and cringe inducing, and simply horrible compared to a finished product with real care, effort, and genuine passion put into the project.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
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In My Lab

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Matt Swain makes huge leaps in logic, and is seeing threats where there are none. What I see is a guy who's ego is tied to his hobby.

As for including female marines into lore and products. I think it needs to understood that it is most possible; that if such a move is done, that the end result may very well be that nothing happens.

We can't expect that simply being inclusive in lore and products or marketing will manage to bring in fans of the opposite sex. Again, there is a reason why toy companies in the past have had girl toy lines, and boy toy lines.

This endeavor must also not be done for the sake of simply being inclusive. We've seen the end results of things done for the simple sake of being inclusive. Finished products that are shallow, ugly and cringe inducing, and simply horrible compared to a finished product with real care, effort, and genuine passion put into the project.
Is being inclusive not something to work towards?

I agree that products that have inclusiveness can be shallow, ugly, cringe, and just plain bad. So can exclusive products. So can products that have a decent attempt at being inclusive but fall short.

But the argument of "Maybe it won't work" is not a good reason to avoid so much as TRYING.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




United States

I would imagine that in order to become a female Space Marine,
Spoiler:
Erda
would have to come back into the mix and re-engineer the Emperor's experiments. After all... she is...
Spoiler:
the mother to all Primarchs and thus, part of the Space Marine genetic make up.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

Being inclusive should never be something we work towards without good reason. What's the point of building toward a project that will eventually culminate into something that is worse than it is in the past just to hand the inferior result over to your daughter?

Great thought and care needs to be put into such marketing exercises, just like it needed to be done with previous successes in the past. Ultimately, GW has much better resources to study such things. But if fans are to push GW for inclusivity, it should be done with intelligence and respect, not hair trigger politically correct reactions.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Being inclusive should never be something we work towards without good reason. What's the point of building toward a project that will eventually culminate into something that is worse than it is in the past just to hand the inferior result over to your daughter?

Great thought and care needs to be put into such marketing exercises, just like it needed to be done with previous successes in the past. Ultimately, GW has much better resources to study such things. But if fans are to push GW for inclusivity, it should be done with intelligence and respect, not hair trigger politically correct reactions.


GW have shown how well they can do it with the stormcast range. No fuss, no ham fisted cringe lore. Just cool models that are bad ass and happen to be women. The cover art of the new core book is a female leader of flagship faction, and it doesn’t matter that she’s female. It matters that she’s bad ass and an awesome model.

I checked again today and there is no point in the latest codex that says that marines have to be men, I wonder when that was last actually published?? Heard plenty of arguments where only the most up to date lore is canon, (don’t agree my self) but if that is the case then no need to worry about breaking the game with a lore change.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Andykp wrote:
 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Being inclusive should never be something we work towards without good reason. What's the point of building toward a project that will eventually culminate into something that is worse than it is in the past just to hand the inferior result over to your daughter?

Great thought and care needs to be put into such marketing exercises, just like it needed to be done with previous successes in the past. Ultimately, GW has much better resources to study such things. But if fans are to push GW for inclusivity, it should be done with intelligence and respect, not hair trigger politically correct reactions.


GW have shown how well they can do it with the stormcast range. No fuss, no ham fisted cringe lore. Just cool models that are bad ass and happen to be women. The cover art of the new core book is a female leader of flagship faction, and it doesn’t matter that she’s female. It matters that she’s bad ass and an awesome model.

I checked again today and there is no point in the latest codex that says that marines have to be men, I wonder when that was last actually published?? Heard plenty of arguments where only the most up to date lore is canon, (don’t agree my self) but if that is the case then no need to worry about breaking the game with a lore change.


Ohh yeah the genesis of AOS and the killing of WHFB was "not ham-fisted"

I wouldn't say Storm cast are the AOS flagship faction. AOS doesn't seem to have one. People have drawn parallel of 'sigmarines' in the beginning because it was the faction that was hoggin all the stuff. It seemed like an attempt at introducing that SM factor to a fantasy setting.
Nowa days? I dont think so.. At least from a non AOS players perspective. The marketing and releases appears to be pretty even across all factions and new factions getting introduced.

I think perhaps that is something 40k is trying to emulate now as well.

But maybe its also the reason why AOS is not as popular as 40k on the grand scheme of things but also why 40k is less popular with women.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 00:44:16


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Rihgu wrote:
But female marines, no. Just for once someone needs to stand up to these bullies and refuses to back down. Don't let them bully us into submission.


Why do you feel like including female marines would be bullying you, and why do you feel so combative about the idea? Why are you making this some kind of culture war, when it isn't?


I think the part where people say it is problematic for GW to have a flagship faction being a fraternal order, and going on to insist anyone who doesn't see anything wrong with having a fraternal order being a flag ship faction is some sort of heretic is where people assume a culture war has come into it.
   
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New York City

I also forgot to mention in my previous posts that, any single move or event should not be expected to draw in a larger fan base. Whatever reasons people get into any hobby, any tabletop wargaming, its rarely for one reason alone.

So yes, adding female Astartes into 40K is a step, a pretty good step IMO. But one step on a flight of stairs. Maybe we will also need marketing, maybe we need new characters. Maybe we need new stories.

Maybe we need to change how GW floor representatives see you for the first time, run up to you and shout in your face when all you wanted to do was buy a box of toys quietly, and head home.

And maybe all it will take is time. Regardless, any type of work worth doing, theres going to be the real possibility that it will take a long time, and a lot of little things will need to be tinkered with and thought about, if we want to see tabletop wargaming become as attractive as something like DnD.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
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U.k

 Argive wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Being inclusive should never be something we work towards without good reason. What's the point of building toward a project that will eventually culminate into something that is worse than it is in the past just to hand the inferior result over to your daughter?

Great thought and care needs to be put into such marketing exercises, just like it needed to be done with previous successes in the past. Ultimately, GW has much better resources to study such things. But if fans are to push GW for inclusivity, it should be done with intelligence and respect, not hair trigger politically correct reactions.


GW have shown how well they can do it with the stormcast range. No fuss, no ham fisted cringe lore. Just cool models that are bad ass and happen to be women. The cover art of the new core book is a female leader of flagship faction, and it doesn’t matter that she’s female. It matters that she’s bad ass and an awesome model.

I checked again today and there is no point in the latest codex that says that marines have to be men, I wonder when that was last actually published?? Heard plenty of arguments where only the most up to date lore is canon, (don’t agree my self) but if that is the case then no need to worry about breaking the game with a lore change.


Ohh yeah the genesis of AOS and the killing of WHFB was "not ham-fisted"

I wouldn't say Storm cast are the AOS flagship faction. AOS doesn't seem to have one. People have drawn parallel of 'sigmarines' in the beginning because it was the faction that was hoggin all the stuff. It seemed like an attempt at introducing that SM factor to a fantasy setting.
Nowa days? I dont think so.. At least from a non AOS players perspective. The marketing and releases appears to be pretty even across all factions and new factions getting introduced.

I think perhaps that is something 40k is trying to emulate now as well.

But maybe its also the reason why AOS is not as popular as 40k on the grand scheme of things but also why 40k is less popular with women.


The dealing with the old world and new AoS is a different issue of the introduction of female stormcast, they did the later very well, first wave was all male, since then lots a of fantastic female models and characters and stories. Nothing to do with the old world. (I actually liked how they killed off the old world).

You might not think that stormcast are the flagship faction and in anyway comparable to marines but all the evidence and GW themselves disagree. There are lots of non stormcast releases but all the artwork, most the stories, and the fact that they are the protagonists in every game box of each edition with a raft of new releases, on the cover of the core book, like marines always are. You might like the comparison but sorry, it stands and is sound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RegularGuy wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
But female marines, no. Just for once someone needs to stand up to these bullies and refuses to back down. Don't let them bully us into submission.


Why do you feel like including female marines would be bullying you, and why do you feel so combative about the idea? Why are you making this some kind of culture war, when it isn't?


I think the part where people say it is problematic for GW to have a flagship faction being a fraternal order, and going on to insist anyone who doesn't see anything wrong with having a fraternal order being a flag ship faction is some sort of heretic is where people assume a culture war has come into it.


That’s not a culture war, that’s your slanted view of good intentioned people pointing out an obvious issue in the community and you refusing to see it or hiding behind terms like fraternity. By the way fraternity isn’t a term in the spacemarine codex either. They drop a lot of male pronouns but that’s as far as it goes.

No culture war, just stating the facts, the fraternity you like so much makes people feel excluded and when it’s challenged people are attacked and threatened. Even when an attempt to discuss it in an adult fashion is bogged down circular arguments about points long since dismissed.

Call it a fraternity, a boys club or an aging sexist trope, it makes people feel excluded and creates toxicity in the community. And so far there has not been a reason not to change it with any validity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 08:27:19


 
   
 
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