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Made in ch
Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter





 Sqorgar wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Sqorgar wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Likewise. Our store simply doesn't allow nude models.
So, no DoK medusae or Diaz Demonettes?
They don't even really have like, nipples though. Just boob-shaped chest meat.

EDIT: I'm wrong about the Daemonettes. I've just not seen them before IRL. As far as the Medusae, I thought they wore tops.
They have nipples. I like to just stare at them all day long, objectifying them in a particularly gendered sort of way. I'm looking for a Lord of Slaanesh on Daemonic Mount so that I can oppress women even more. Once I get that and a Keeper of Secrets, my domination of the weaker sex will be complete.


I had a good laugh at this. But the sad part is, this is the actual image propagated by Anita and the people who follow her.

We're all just sitting in our leather chairs, stroking a (male) fluffy cat, snickering to ourselves as we plan the next step to keeping all females under our thumb. By having plastic models wear skimpy clothing. I would normally offer my GF's perspective on the matter, but her chain is sadly not long enough to reach the keyboard.



On a more serious note, what this might, but hopefully wont, do is just reignite that same witchhunt-mentaility that is present in so many other fields nowadays (If it isnt already so, I found plenty of articles already, among them one unironically named, I am sadly not kidding you, "Tabletop gaming has a white male terrorism problem"). And probably worse, guilt-trip people into actually believing any of this nonsense.

The sad part is, you could have had so much more constructive inclusions, people that would've actually offered some points, some creative ideas, or at the very least discussion. Instead they got Anita, who will almost certainly offer:

"Sexism everywhere. Sexism bad. Hugh."

And isn't that a rich addition to any Convention?
   
Made in dk
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You don't think people will want to read a comic about an undercover investigation into a white nationalist gang?


Depends on how the story will be presented. I could see a comic of a guy infiltrating a neonazi base being successful. Or I could see a comic of a spy eliminating them white guys.

I don't know which one this will be, but from the collective page of all the comics I can make an uneducated guess.

I don't see how the "mexican-looking aliens causing racial resurgence to rednecks and a multi-racial group of high schoolers knowing better" would sell at all, to be honest.

This is Vertigo. It's not supposed to be socially acceptable comics. It's supposed to walk on the edge. And the Vertigo readers buy their comics for this very reason. You make this kind of turn, you are effectively trying to trade your vertigo audience with a new one who will place value in the ideas propelled. The problem here is that comic collectors are for life. It's not a hobby for months. Chances are that people who grew up without reading comics will never become avid collectors suddenly, because now comics include modern social issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 08:50:53


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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You don't think people will want to read a comic about an undercover investigation into a white nationalist gang?


Isn't that the plot to Harry Potter And The White Supermasicts-I mean Imperium?

I read through them and the plots seem very...forced? I guess? Insincere? Hamfisted? The A.I one sounds okay even if it is a rip off of a Japanese web novel with a social justice message bolted on but the fact that Zoe Quinn is the writer doesn't really fill me with confidence. They'll likely be all the same self-congratulatory masturbation fantasies filled with unlikable preachy bores. You can read Strong Female Protagonist or Marvels brief Mockingbird comic if you want that. I shouldn't criticize them though because I'm a white male so probably a misogynist for disliking them.
Spoiler:
Unsolicited opinions on Israel.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 08:55:18



 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

topaxygouroun i wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You don't think people will want to read a comic about an undercover investigation into a white nationalist gang?


Depends on how the story will be presented. I could see a comic of a guy infiltrating a neonazi base being successful. Or I could see a comic of a spy eliminating them white guys.

I don't know which one this will be, but from the collective page of all the comics I can make an uneducated guess.

I don't see how the "mexican-looking aliens causing racial resurgence to rednecks and a multi-racial group of high schoolers knowing better" would sell at all, to be honest.

This is Vertigo. It's not supposed to be socially acceptable comics. It's supposed to walk on the edge. And the Vertigo readers buy their comics for this very reason. You make this kind of turn, you are effectively trying to trade your vertigo audience with a new one who will place value in the ideas propelled. The problem here is that comic collectors are for life. It's not a hobby for months. Chances are that people who grew up without reading comics will never become avid collectors suddenly, because now comics include modern social issues.


He's an ex-FBI agent, not James Bond, and it is described as a crime saga. I imagine it will be more The Departed and less Death Wish.

It isn't mexican-looking aliens. It is interdimensional beings from mexican folklore (think Chupacabra, El Coco, etc.). As for people not being interested in a diverse group of friends trying to solve the mystery, I would direct you to Stranger Things or, before that, The Goonies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Isn't that the plot to Harry Potter And The White Supermasicts-I mean Imperium?

I read through them and the plots seem very...forced?


Some of them do sound a bit forced, but loads of plots sound forced when you are trying to distill them right down into a couple of sentences, especially in comics where the plots are often sprawling and, frankly, ridiculous.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 09:21:07


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in fr
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


It isn't mexican-looking aliens. It is interdimensional beings from mexican folklore. As for people not being interested in a diverse group of friends trying to solve the mystery, I would direct you to Stranger Things or, before that, The Goonies.


...soo, mexican-looking aliens. And it's not the goonies who feel weird to me, it's the whole "the mexican-looking aliens make the locals go racist". This strikes too close to the fence. Why read this Vertigo comic when I can read any modern blog instead? The ideas presented are the same. District 9 made a nice story out of it because they did not dress their aliens in ponchos.

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Bristol

topaxygouroun i wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


It isn't mexican-looking aliens. It is interdimensional beings from mexican folklore. As for people not being interested in a diverse group of friends trying to solve the mystery, I would direct you to Stranger Things or, before that, The Goonies.


...soo, mexican-looking aliens. And it's not the goonies who feel weird to me, it's the whole "the mexican-looking aliens make the locals go racist".


Or the Chupacabra starts killing cattle and the newly arrived mexican immigrants are blamed. Or El Cuco steals children and the immigrants are blamed. Because those kinds of things have never happened.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 09:26:14


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You don't think people will want to read a comic about an undercover investigation into a white nationalist gang?


Depends on how the story will be presented. I could see a comic of a guy infiltrating a neonazi base being successful. Or I could see a comic of a spy eliminating them white guys.

I don't know which one this will be, but from the collective page of all the comics I can make an uneducated guess.

I don't see how the "mexican-looking aliens causing racial resurgence to rednecks and a multi-racial group of high schoolers knowing better" would sell at all, to be honest.

This is Vertigo. It's not supposed to be socially acceptable comics. It's supposed to walk on the edge. And the Vertigo readers buy their comics for this very reason. You make this kind of turn, you are effectively trying to trade your vertigo audience with a new one who will place value in the ideas propelled. The problem here is that comic collectors are for life. It's not a hobby for months. Chances are that people who grew up without reading comics will never become avid collectors suddenly, because now comics include modern social issues.


He's an ex-FBI agent, not James Bond, and it is described as a crime saga. I imagine it will be more The Departed and less Death Wish.

It isn't mexican-looking aliens. It is interdimensional beings from mexican folklore (think Chupacabra, El Coco, etc.). As for people not being interested in a diverse group of friends trying to solve the mystery, I would direct you to Stranger Things or, before that, The Goonies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Isn't that the plot to Harry Potter And The White Supermasicts-I mean Imperium?

I read through them and the plots seem very...forced?


Some of them do sound a bit forced, but loads of plots sound forced when you are trying to distill them right down into a couple of sentences, especially in comics where the plots are often sprawling and, frankly, ridiculous.


The Mexican folklore one literally has a character quote saying "God-danged foreigners." or something to that effect in the summery. They may as well have just gone full tilt and have the summery be "Watch Mexican monster kids yell at racists and give alt-righters their comeuppance with super powers."


 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


It isn't mexican-looking aliens. It is interdimensional beings from mexican folklore. As for people not being interested in a diverse group of friends trying to solve the mystery, I would direct you to Stranger Things or, before that, The Goonies.


...soo, mexican-looking aliens. And it's not the goonies who feel weird to me, it's the whole "the mexican-looking aliens make the locals go racist".


Or the Chupacabra starts killing cattle and the newly arrived mexican immigrants are blamed. Or El Cuco steals children and the immigrants are blamed. Because those kinds of things have never happened.


It's not about if they happened or not. It about the fact that comics are not real life. And even though it is perfectly fine to represent real life in comics, that's usually not why people buy them. Comic readers want to be immersed in worlds that are not reality. They dig into comics because they want something difference from their daily internet feed.

The other problem is that it's vertigo. Changing course will alienate your favorite fans. Not unlikely the new Star Wars. It's like owning a milk company, selling milk for 40 years, and then suddenly you change your business and you only sell chocolate milk instead. You can't really hope that the people who have been buying your milk for 40 years will continue to do so, just because your label is the same.

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Is it that different from how Captain America got started? Yelling at Nazis and giving them their comeuppance through superpowers? This was even before the US even got dragged into the war mind. That could certainly be argued to be pretty political.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 09:36:40


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Is it that different from how Captain America got started? Yelling at Nazis and giving them their comeuppance through superpowers? This was even before the US even got dragged into the war mind. That could certainly be argued to be pretty political.


Remember, it's only "political" if it's expressing an opinion you don't like. If you agree with the message it's just a fun story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
It's not about if they happened or not. It about the fact that comics are not real life. And even though it is perfectly fine to represent real life in comics, that's usually not why people buy them. Comic readers want to be immersed in worlds that are not reality. They dig into comics because they want something difference from their daily internet feed.


That's a very narrow definition of the medium and its audience. It's the kind of attitude that leads to milking the cash cow with repeats of the same characters and plots, because they have name recognition and trying anything new is scary. I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea to draw a line and declare certain subjects off limits.

The other problem is that it's vertigo. Changing course will alienate your favorite fans. Not unlikely the new Star Wars. It's like owning a milk company, selling milk for 40 years, and then suddenly you change your business and you only sell chocolate milk instead. You can't really hope that the people who have been buying your milk for 40 years will continue to do so, just because your label is the same.


Are we seriously complaining about a comic book brand rebooting its concept? In the industry with a long history of regular reboots of its characters and stories, coming up with "new" identities for its product lines as a marketing tool so regularly that the only question is when the publisher will scrap the entire current story and start over from the beginning, not if? The comic book industry regularly bets that its customers will keep buying after the reboot, and they're regularly proved to be correct.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 09:48:24


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nl
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 Peregrine wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Is it that different from how Captain America got started? Yelling at Nazis and giving them their comeuppance through superpowers? This was even before the US even got dragged into the war mind. That could certainly be argued to be pretty political.


Remember, it's only "political" if it's expressing an opinion you don't like. If you agree with the message it's just a fun story.

Its a pretty odd argument. The creator/company goes in a different direction and creates a new story instead of 'shoehorning' it into the existing ones and it still a problem. So we have moved from if you want to do your thing make up your own new stuff instead if inserting it, to make up your own new stuff instead of inserting it unless you're a company that has been around for a while in which case your content has to be frozen in whatever time period the company was created. The same side arguing against Sarkeesian calling us a hive mind is somehow constructing the idea that the company's readers are a hive mind set against it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 09:51:19


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Problem is Anita is one of those "prejudice + power = [whatever]ism" people, so women cannot be sexist, only white people can be racist, and the word 'heterophobic' might as well not exist (granted, I'd wager that last one a lot more rare than the other two).


Well yes, that would be the definition of the word. Racism/sexism/etc are defined as systemic bias/oppression against a group. An individual black person can hate all white people, but that would be an extreme outlier that is nowhere near common enough to have any effect on white people as a group. One might fire you for being white, but you can almost certainly find another job where nobody would even consider being biased against you for your race. That one event, bad as it may be, is unlikely to ever happen again. On the other hand, non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race. It isn't one isolated incident, it's a pattern of events that has a statistically significant effect on the group as a whole.

Now, women/non-white people/etc can certainly be prejudiced, and that prejudice is in no way ok. A woman who hates all men is still a even though their awful belief is defined as prejudice instead of sexism. But calling it sexism instead of prejudice is a common misuse of the term. It's common enough that IMO it's not really worth fighting over, but she's still correct.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 10:01:03


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ch
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Is it that different from how Captain America got started? Yelling at Nazis and giving them their comeuppance through superpowers? This was even before the US even got dragged into the war mind. That could certainly be argued to be pretty political.


But Hydra were portrayed clearly as fascist warmongers, they did not focus on them being white supremacists. If anything, they were completely covered in masks and led by a guy with a Red Skull and no skin whatsoever.

At any rate, I am not opposed at all on making political based comics, or even modern social issues comics. Do it under a different firm though. Even Vertigo 2 if you like. But i want my 100 bullets man.

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topaxygouroun i wrote:
But Hydra were portrayed clearly as fascist warmongers, they did not focus on them being white supremacists. If anything, they were completely covered in masks and led by a guy with a Red Skull and no skin whatsoever.


No, we're talking about literally fighting Nazis. Not Hydra, not some thinly-veiled Nazi equivalents, actual real-world Nazis.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 10:05:13


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ch
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Peregrine wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Problem is Anita is one of those "prejudice + power = [whatever]ism" people, so women cannot be sexist, only white people can be racist, and the word 'heterophobic' might as well not exist (granted, I'd wager that last one a lot more rare than the other two).


Well yes, that would be the definition of the word. Racism/sexism/etc are defined as systemic bias/oppression against a group. An individual black person can hate all white people, but that would be an extreme outlier that is nowhere near common enough to have any effect on white people as a group. One might fire you for being white, but you can almost certainly find another job where nobody would even consider being biased against you for your race. That one event, bad as it may be, is unlikely to ever happen again. On the other hand, non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race. It isn't one isolated incident, it's a pattern of events that has a statistically significant effect on the group as a whole.

Now, women/non-white people/etc can certainly be prejudiced, and that prejudice is in no way ok. A woman who hates all men is still a even though their awful belief is defined as prejudice instead of sexism. But calling it sexism instead of prejudice is a common misuse of the term. It's common enough that IMO it's not really worth fighting over, but she's still correct.


What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men? When does OK become not OK?

Also,
non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race.
Any proof of this claim?

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topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Is it that different from how Captain America got started? Yelling at Nazis and giving them their comeuppance through superpowers? This was even before the US even got dragged into the war mind. That could certainly be argued to be pretty political.


But Hydra were portrayed clearly as fascist warmongers, they did not focus on them being white supremacists. If anything, they were completely covered in masks and led by a guy with a Red Skull and no skin whatsoever.

At any rate, I am not opposed at all on making political based comics, or even modern social issues comics. Do it under a different firm though. Even Vertigo 2 if you like. But i want my 100 bullets man.
It was specifically started against Nazis, even the creators stated that. When Nazis got beaten in 45 they needed something new and got into the more nebulous stuff.

But why a different firm? We're arguing that Sarkeesian shouldn't push her agenda on these companies in this thread and now you turn around and push your agenda on them as well. How is that any different? A business is a business, they control what they do and no one else gets to decide for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
topaxygouroun i wrote:


What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men? When does OK become not OK?
Its about institutional and societal power dynamics. In a hypothetical world where one half is a matriarchy and the other a patriarchy and they both opress the other side, one half could be said to be sexist against men and the other half against women. Its down to specific terminology, most people don't care to make the disctinction, but people like the linguist are making it because as a linguist its kind of his job.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 10:16:24


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
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topaxygouroun i wrote:
What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men?


If "many" became enough that it was a systemic problem and not a few isolated individuals then it would become racism/sexism. However, we're nowhere near that point in the real world and it's not a very relevant hypothetical situation.

When does OK become not OK?


It's never ok. I already said this. Prejudice is wrong even if it isn't racism/sexism, and we should not approve of those beliefs or the s who hold them.

Also,
non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race.
Any proof of this claim?


Are you ing kidding? Are you honestly asking for proof of something this extremely obvious because you somehow aren't aware of it, or is this just an attempt to spam "WHERE IS PROOF" demands until the other side gets tired of googling the obvious for you and gives up?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ch
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Peregrine wrote:

Are you ing kidding? Are you honestly asking for proof of something this extremely obvious because you somehow aren't aware of it, or is this just an attempt to spam "WHERE IS PROOF" demands until the other side gets tired of googling the obvious for you and gives up?


I am very serious and do not intend to spam in the slightest. What you claim is not my experience in everyday life at all. If you would, it would help if you elaborate on "regurarly encountering poor treatment because of their race." In 2018 terms please, not in 1960 ones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 10:49:10


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topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

Are you ing kidding? Are you honestly asking for proof of something this extremely obvious because you somehow aren't aware of it, or is this just an attempt to spam "WHERE IS PROOF" demands until the other side gets tired of googling the obvious for you and gives up?


I am very serious and do not intend to spam in the slightest. What you claim is not my experience in everyday life at all. If you would, it would help if you elaborate on "regurarly encountering poor treatment because of their race." In 2018 terms please, not in 1960 ones.


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=FF8aW8eZEs6e5gKpoZ74Aw&q=racism+in+the+us+in+2018&oq=racism+in+the+us+in+2018

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
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Monticello, IN

topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Problem is Anita is one of those "prejudice + power = [whatever]ism" people, so women cannot be sexist, only white people can be racist, and the word 'heterophobic' might as well not exist (granted, I'd wager that last one a lot more rare than the other two).


Well yes, that would be the definition of the word. Racism/sexism/etc are defined as systemic bias/oppression against a group. An individual black person can hate all white people, but that would be an extreme outlier that is nowhere near common enough to have any effect on white people as a group. One might fire you for being white, but you can almost certainly find another job where nobody would even consider being biased against you for your race. That one event, bad as it may be, is unlikely to ever happen again. On the other hand, non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race. It isn't one isolated incident, it's a pattern of events that has a statistically significant effect on the group as a whole.

Now, women/non-white people/etc can certainly be prejudiced, and that prejudice is in no way ok. A woman who hates all men is still a even though their awful belief is defined as prejudice instead of sexism. But calling it sexism instead of prejudice is a common misuse of the term. It's common enough that IMO it's not really worth fighting over, but she's still correct.


What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men? When does OK become not OK?

Also,
non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race.
Any proof of this claim?



ANY day I get to quote Star Trek: Insurrection is a good day.

"How many does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong, hmm? A thousand? Ten thousand? A million?!?! HOW MANY DOES IT TAKE?!?!??!!?"



And to Peregrine, you realize the poster I quoted is from a country that may not have that issue, right? Or that as an objective eye, he doesn't see the 20 or so high profile cases that have made international news as some sort of systemic "All 'muricans haetz the brownz peeplez" racism?

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 Just Tony wrote:
ANY day I get to quote Star Trek: Insurrection is a good day.

"How many does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong, hmm? A thousand? Ten thousand? A million?!?! HOW MANY DOES IT TAKE?!?!??!!?"


Ugh, mentioning that movie. Can we all agree, whatever our feelings on Sarkeesian are, that Just Tony is the real monster here?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
ANY day I get to quote Star Trek: Insurrection is a good day.

"How many does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong, hmm? A thousand? Ten thousand? A million?!?! HOW MANY DOES IT TAKE?!?!??!!?"


Ugh, mentioning that movie. Can we all agree, whatever our feelings on Sarkeesian are, that Just Tony is the real monster here?


Says the guy who leaves half eaten mice and squirrels in other peoples yards and is known to chase small dogs?

That movie was awesome.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 11:14:22


 
   
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Monticello, IN

I'd quote Star Trek's worst before Star Wars' best any day of the week. Nobody ever open mouth kissed their sister on the Enterprise.

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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Just Tony wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Problem is Anita is one of those "prejudice + power = [whatever]ism" people, so women cannot be sexist, only white people can be racist, and the word 'heterophobic' might as well not exist (granted, I'd wager that last one a lot more rare than the other two).


Well yes, that would be the definition of the word. Racism/sexism/etc are defined as systemic bias/oppression against a group. An individual black person can hate all white people, but that would be an extreme outlier that is nowhere near common enough to have any effect on white people as a group. One might fire you for being white, but you can almost certainly find another job where nobody would even consider being biased against you for your race. That one event, bad as it may be, is unlikely to ever happen again. On the other hand, non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race. It isn't one isolated incident, it's a pattern of events that has a statistically significant effect on the group as a whole.

Now, women/non-white people/etc can certainly be prejudiced, and that prejudice is in no way ok. A woman who hates all men is still a even though their awful belief is defined as prejudice instead of sexism. But calling it sexism instead of prejudice is a common misuse of the term. It's common enough that IMO it's not really worth fighting over, but she's still correct.


What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men? When does OK become not OK?

Also,
non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race.
Any proof of this claim?



And to Peregrine, you realize the poster I quoted is from a country that may not have that issue, right? Or that as an objective eye, he doesn't see the 20 or so high profile cases that have made international news as some sort of systemic "All 'muricans haetz the brownz peeplez" racism?


Americans tend to assume that every country has the same society, history and culture as them. Its weird. Irish people speak english and is a tiny fraction of the size of the US so obviously the same issues and that effect us the same way.


 
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Problem is Anita is one of those "prejudice + power = [whatever]ism" people, so women cannot be sexist, only white people can be racist, and the word 'heterophobic' might as well not exist (granted, I'd wager that last one a lot more rare than the other two).


Well yes, that would be the definition of the word. Racism/sexism/etc are defined as systemic bias/oppression against a group. An individual black person can hate all white people, but that would be an extreme outlier that is nowhere near common enough to have any effect on white people as a group. One might fire you for being white, but you can almost certainly find another job where nobody would even consider being biased against you for your race. That one event, bad as it may be, is unlikely to ever happen again. On the other hand, non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race. It isn't one isolated incident, it's a pattern of events that has a statistically significant effect on the group as a whole.

Now, women/non-white people/etc can certainly be prejudiced, and that prejudice is in no way ok. A woman who hates all men is still a even though their awful belief is defined as prejudice instead of sexism. But calling it sexism instead of prejudice is a common misuse of the term. It's common enough that IMO it's not really worth fighting over, but she's still correct.


What about if many black persons hate all white people? What if many women hate all men? When does OK become not OK?

Also,
non-white people can expect to regularly encounter poor treatment because of their race.
Any proof of this claim?



And to Peregrine, you realize the poster I quoted is from a country that may not have that issue, right? Or that as an objective eye, he doesn't see the 20 or so high profile cases that have made international news as some sort of systemic "All 'muricans haetz the brownz peeplez" racism?


Americans tend to assume that every country has the same society, history and culture as them. Its weird. Irish people speak english and is a tiny fraction of the size of the US so obviously the same issues and that effect us the same way.

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 12:12:25


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Netherlands

 Peregrine wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

Are you ing kidding? Are you honestly asking for proof of something this extremely obvious because you somehow aren't aware of it, or is this just an attempt to spam "WHERE IS PROOF" demands until the other side gets tired of googling the obvious for you and gives up?


I am very serious and do not intend to spam in the slightest. What you claim is not my experience in everyday life at all. If you would, it would help if you elaborate on "regurarly encountering poor treatment because of their race." In 2018 terms please, not in 1960 ones.


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=FF8aW8eZEs6e5gKpoZ74Aw&q=racism+in+the+us+in+2018&oq=racism+in+the+us+in+2018


This does not help. This is just articles from the Guardian and the nytimes. I cannot verify the credibility of those articles. The first 6 articles in your search are as follows:

1. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/06/everyday-racism-in-america-how-to-fix-it

This is an opinion of a book author. There is nothing to quantify this article except what the author's opinion is.

2. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/06/growing-up-black-in-america-racism-education

A 45-50 yo man complains how he was discriminated in primary school. Aka 40 years ago. Also his justification is "In elementary school I got the distinct impression that teachers didn’t like me." I can tell you no teachers liked me in elementary school as well. It was not because of my skin color.

3. https://www.usnews.com/topics/subjects/racism#close-modal

This is a general subject in the website of usnews, featuring latest articles. Here's some of the titles:

"Racial bias in antibiotics prescribing". Article states that "research finds that" with no citing whatsoever, and continues with "While the reasons for these associations still aren't fully understood, experts say investigating the various factors that may be linked to inappropriate prescribing could help in curbing the problem." So an unconfirmed study with not understood reasons makes the news as "Racial bias". 80% of the article is about young kids and weight issues btw.

"Local Leaders are key to change, says the New Orleans mayor". In a 800 word article, the only mention of racism is this: "Although Landrieu says he thinks there is a "huge amount of common ground" between people, he doesn't turn a blind eye to the things that need to be fixed, such as racism and tension between African-Americans and law enforcement." So it's either huge amount of common ground or "regularly encountering poor treatment". Can't be both.

4. https://nypost.com/tag/racism/

Also general nypost folder on racism. Some of the first results linked:

"Mayor apologizes after mom’s racist Facebook rant". An 80yo woman complained on facebook about Korean Americans. Mayor who happens to be her son had to apologize and say she "doesn't know what she is talking about". This is not a racist issue, this is an 80 year old granny being racist. Not any different than a 35 yo faminist hating me because of what I am writing right now.

"Proof that Dem's unfair race baiting doesn't add up." This one actually advocates the opposite of what you point out, that racism does not really exist. Of course it is using the argument "More white men died to police shootings than black men did so there is no racism" for which the author should be put in a mental institution if you ask me.

"Mom unleashes profane, racist tirade in subway seat fight". This is about a black woman verbally attacking an asian woman. Is this racism or it doesn't not count if the perpetrator is not white?

"Men threw hatchet at black teen" This is very, very criminal. Article does not say if the men were white, or if they threw the hatchet because the teen was black or because the teen was a nerd or an introvert. Certainly criminal, not necessary racist.

5. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

"Black boys raised in America, even in the wealthiest families and living in some of the most well-to-do neighborhoods, still earn less in adulthood than white boys with similar backgrounds, according to a sweeping new study that traced the lives of millions of children.". Interesting study. Claims to use data of over 20 million households. Looks huge. I will have to look into it in more detail.

6. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/20/opinion/racism-america.html

A nytimes article about several opinions of its editors on a black professor stating that "Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon Johnson said racist stuff in their presidency". As I said, let's look into 2018, not 1900ish.

Overall your google search does not give me much, except the one study that looks huge in scope, and it will take me a couple of weeks to absorb. I promise you that I will, though.


Let me explain myself better. I'm from EU. Not many US news come over here. Most of the ones which do are usually about police shootings against black people. Usually the ones with the cop video camera footage. The first thing I feel is shocked that your policemen actually shoot people in point blank range. Most of them appear to be in panic mode also. Now all of them - except two I think- were against armed people who refused to obey direct orders from the police. Not that I think that a policeman should be allowed to go berzerk on people just cause of course. If however I was stopped by a stressed cop pointing a gun at me I would obey each and every order he gives me. I would sort things out later, when the situation was de-escalated. Now there were two videos I remember distinctly where I though were purely criminal from the police. In one case they have a guy already on the ground and under a kneebar and then another cop just waltzes in and shoots him in the back. WTF. The second is against an older fella who turns tail and runs. Then the cop casually proceeds to shoot him in the back. WTF times two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.


Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 12:19:27


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 Togusa wrote:
What in the....

Are those real? That is a joke right?

Right?

Right?

Right?


My poor, sweet summer child.

Captain America is being written by a man that called the FDNY responders at 9/11 inhuman monsters and mocked their 'machismo'. Comics are a dumpster fire right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
This is Vertigo. It's not supposed to be socially acceptable comics. It's supposed to walk on the edge. And the Vertigo readers buy their comics for this very reason. You make this kind of turn, you are effectively trying to trade your vertigo audience with a new one who will place value in the ideas propelled. The problem here is that comic collectors are for life. It's not a hobby for months. Chances are that people who grew up without reading comics will never become avid collectors suddenly, because now comics include modern social issues.


"Get woke, go broke"

The people that are behind these comics have long been gatekeepers in the industry. And we're looking at another mid-90's crash. Comic shops are closing all over and it's because no one wants to buy this garbage.

Remember when Vertigo comics were Preacher and Johnny 'Conjob' Constantine?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 12:29:12


 
   
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topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.


Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

I think the debate is if a black stereotypical caricature is racist because of what it depicts. It is pretty bad though, amazingly cringy and it certainly crosses the line I think. But as its a children's holiday adults don't really discriminate against each other, its mainly children being affected by it. There certainly is discrimination here, its less obvious, but bringing up the topic gets you no less hatemail. Yesterday I even saw people protesting a charity that tries to prevent child labor abroad because "they were taking their jobs away". Dutch people never fail to surprise me. Its a long way to go in some aspects, just giving an example to others because of the outside of the US perspective.

And thats your problem? Not that they start selling the freaking things in like august? I mean its one day a year and we have to build up to it for three months, three months! Its anarchy!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/08 12:36:52


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Netherlands

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.


Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

I think the debate is if a black stereotypical caricature is racist because of what it depicts. It is pretty bad though, amazingly cringy. But as its a children's holiday adults don't really discriminate against each other, its mainly children being affected by it. There certainly is discrimination here, its less obvious, but bringing up the topic gets you no less hatemail. Yesterday I even saw people protesting a charity that tries to prevent child labor abroad because "they were taking their jobs away". Dutch people never fail to surprise me. Its a long way to go in some aspects, just giving an example to others because of the outside of the US perspective.

And thats your problem? Not that they start selling the freaking things in like august? I mean its one day a year and we have to build up to it for three months, three months! Its anarchy!


I am always waiting 7th in the morning in front of AH to buy 10-15 kilos of peppernotten on the discount price. I have a problem :(

Zwarte piet is really really cringy indeed. On the other hand for some reason Dutch people tend to dress carnival-like about 10 times more often than any other people I have met. bachelor party? Here's princess dresses or giant dick costumes. PSV won the Eredivisie? Look at me being dressed like a hamburger. Every weekend there's someone on the streets dressed up. Madness, madness I tell you.

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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Iirc Topaxygouroun said he lives in the Netherlands, but he is Greek? My country (NL) has a yearly tradition for a children's party where white Dutch people put on black face, paint their lips bright red and put on a curly black wig to play the dumb helpers of our version of santa. Meanwhile the majority insists that this is no way has any racist undertones. Make of that what you will.


Aaah good old zwarte piet. Well I am not Dutch, I only live here so I would not persume to judge the Dutch because I lack a lot of the background data. If however I had to choose between racism including real people and racism due to fictional characters then I would choose to live in the Netherlands rather than in Greece I suppose. I prefer to see how everyday life unfolds in the Netherlands. So far (3 years here) I have not witnessed any cases where people of color are getting discriminated as a result of the Swarte Piet custom or otherwise.

I do have a serious problem about SinterKlaas though: After 6th of December, the peppernotten availability stops. What in the heck is this? It's like Santa coming and taking the gifts away! Get your shirt together, Netherlands!

I think the debate is if a black stereotypical caricature is racist because of what it depicts. It is pretty bad though, amazingly cringy. But as its a children's holiday adults don't really discriminate against each other, its mainly children being affected by it. There certainly is discrimination here, its less obvious, but bringing up the topic gets you no less hatemail. Yesterday I even saw people protesting a charity that tries to prevent child labor abroad because "they were taking their jobs away". Dutch people never fail to surprise me. Its a long way to go in some aspects, just giving an example to others because of the outside of the US perspective.

And thats your problem? Not that they start selling the freaking things in like august? I mean its one day a year and we have to build up to it for three months, three months! Its anarchy!


Do the kids actually know what they're caricaturising? Do they have context? Do the parents dress them up and say "Now you look like an African person" or do the kids just think that's how Santa's helpers look? I remember when I was younger I had no idea that the gollywog on my marmalade was supposed to be a black person. I thought it was just a mascot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 12:40:12



 
   
 
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