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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The burden is also on the players to come up with interesting things for their PCs to do.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Manchu wrote:
The burden is also on the players to come up with interesting things for their PCs to do.


agreed. If the PC's all just walk up and hit their opponents then the fight will consist of the PC's walking up and hitting the opponents.

I'm setting up a campaign, and I plan to try and make as many of the "combat encounters" require thought as possible. EG, there's a group of goblins on the other side of the bridge, but they don't seem keen to go on the bridge. If a PC says they walk up and hit them, then I'll say to make a dexterity save as the bridge that they were obviously luring you onto collapses under you.

a room full of dudes to kill, which you cannot leave until the dudes have been killed, is as uninspiring of a "combat encounter" as saying "I walk up and hit them" is an uninspiring PC response to it.

It's up for the GM to make a challenging encounter, which requires some thought and such to approach.
It's up to the PC's to decide how they will approach it. They might walk up and hit things, they might throw rocks, or release caged animals, or use mage hand to undo the belt buckle of the main boss as they square up for a fight, or loot stuff nearby to get ahead of their fellow adventurers, or, or, or.

The GM's set up will limit their decisions, so it has to be dynamic and elaborate enough, and well described enough, to give the players more agency.


EG the difference between a room full of enemies with a magically locked door which stays shut until the enemies are dead (limited choices) and a long corridor with 2 doors at one end - one they came in through, and another that is locked which they wish to exit by - whilst a horde of enemies (can be a horde due to space restrictions dropping their effective numbers) pour down the corridor. The door leads to the only surviving bridge, and the corridor is open on one side, with huge wooden totem poles standing alongside the ravine.
The fighter classes might hold them back, whilst the rogue picks the lock and the support classes try to help, while the barbarian (or other strong characters) might try to tip a totem pole over to bridge the gap. Thus players have different roles available in the encounter, and different options of things to do, rather than all having to fight. One player might have a way to magically transport one player at a time over the ravine, etc etc. good encounters offer diverse options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 11:52:07


12,300 points of Orks
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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
That is disingenuous. This whole thread is about dms stepping outside the box to accommodate players doing whacky gak.

5th has far less allowances than 3rd for the sake of simplicity. Like disarms and feints being basically non existant rules wise. How individual dms handle those situations, with luck rolls, advantage/disadvantage, and whatever is all well and good but that is dm intervention when the system itself fails to hold up its end of the bargain.

And that was my point. Of course the players and dm can just do what they want. But shouldnt the game just work allowing it to begin with?


I mean, again, I've played fifth all of one single time, but disarms and feints are both things that my Fighter has the option to do. It's baked into the subclass that he got really excited about, and looking at the subclasses I have to admit that I like that the mechanically intense sorts of combat maneuvers were gated behind that one particular subclass and, if you want, you can choose to have one that's infinitely simpler if you so desire.

If I had presented this player with a character sheet that included "Feinting Strike, Parry, Riposte, Disarming Strike, Goading Strike" etc on his first playing session, his reaction would have been identical to mine when I tried fourth and got handed a fistful of cards that said "once per day, once per short rest, once per encounter" and got told "so these are all the things your character can do, keep track of them!"

But now that he's had about 12 hours of play time under his belt, and he's got the hang of the basics, he can branch out and play around with the more complicated tricks and maneuvers and decide what his character's fighting style is.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Other RPGs give the characters actual tactical options for combat, with clearly defined parameters, that are not simply rounds of 'mother may I' with the GM.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
I’m pretty sure D&D also has the concept of modified opposed checks.


It has the CONCEPT for doing things like stealth vs a spot check or whatever the hell they call it in 5th. But they don't have it for combat. Because DnD still runs on d20 which is using DCs for the majority of it's mechanics including combat. You can't do an opposed roll for disarming or whatever because attacking isn't attribute mod + "skill". It's BAB or proficency, + attribute + other bs vs a specialized DC that is your AC.

The unisystem runs entirely on the singular mechanic of stat + skill. It's built to do it opposed. Built to modify the roll based on outside factors. And built to gauge degrees of success when doing a task unopposed or opposed.

Again, DnD just isn't built for it. The system isn't robust or flexible enough.


I mean, yes but also not really. The only thing that making an action against your opponent "opposed" vs making them oppose it with a static value, is greatly increasing the random swing from 1 D20 roll to 2 D20 rolls. a character who is really really clumsy at a -1 making an attack at an opponent who is really really dextrous at +5 is VASTLY more swingy if they both need to roll a D20 and add, versus the dextrous character always having a native DC of 15 rather than 10 to be hit.

and also, there are plenty of in-combat circumstances that can change the momentary odds of the same attack, they're just not *usually* opposed rolls. Hide is a basic action in combat, which is an opposed stealth vs perception check. Dodge gives an opponent disadvantage on their attack if you can see them. Help gives an ally advantage on their next attack. And that's just the basic combat actions.

One of the biggest frustrations I have had with D (high number) systems is the fact that your character's skill and the circumstances tend to matter less than the result of the die roll in a lot of situations. I would much rather apply advantage/disadvantage, halve or double damage, raise or lower the DC of doing something than have to oppose with another random D20 roll, it's faster to resolve and makes it far more likely that abilities and actions' effects actually MATTER.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:
Other RPGs give the characters actual tactical options for combat, with clearly defined parameters, that are not simply rounds of 'mother may I' with the GM.


I've got, in my group right now, a level 3 druid, whose options in combat are:

1) attack with his weapon in melee
2) provide advantage to an ally's attack on an enemy within melee range of him
3) increase his AC by dodging
4) Hide, forcing enemies to oppose his stealth with perception
5) move double speed
6) Disengage from combat without provoking an attack of opportunity
7) Transform into what is right now 6 different animal options, which change his melee combat profile and give him bonus HP but remove his access to spellcasting as long as he stays in it
8) cast a small AOE on a point that pushes all enemies away 2 squares and deals slight damage if they fail their save
9) cast a pure damage spell that does heavy damage to one target and light damage to any surrounding enemies in an aoe
10) heat up an opponent's metal armor or weapon, causing damage to a single target and forcing them to check if they disarm
11) cast an unlimited spell that causes light damage at range
12) Heal an ally they can touch

12 purely mechanical options, without getting into anything that CAN be done with a discussion with the DM, you know, like in a roleplaying game. And that's at level 3 of 20, and he can change out 8-12 any time he likes for any of like 30 other options from the first and second level spell list.

The simplest possible character types still have access to 1-6, and there is not a single character class that I have found that does not have some way to increase the number of options they have each round above 6, if they so choose. You CAN stick to 6, but only on purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 12:55:01


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 harlokin wrote:
simply rounds of 'mother may I' with the GM.
This sounds like dysfunction, or maybe growing pains.

Players don’t need to ask the DM for permission for their characters to attempt something. Players need to explain how their characters are attempting things so the DM has enough info to make a call about whether a roll is necessary and, if so, what kind of roll should be made.

   
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Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Not necessarily. It may come to a matter of gaming taste.

One system may have rules for disarming, or making a powerful attack at the expense of defence, or distracting opponent. Another may have no such thing, but instead leaves it in the purview of the GM to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis what a character may attempt, what the parameters are, and whether it succeeds.

I have a strong preference for the former, but the latter is also a popular option.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 harlokin wrote:
Not necessarily. It may come to a matter of gaming taste.

One system may have rules for disarming, or making a powerful attack at the expense of defence, or distracting opponent. Another may have no such thing, but instead leaves it in the purview of the GM to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis what a character may attempt, what the parameters are, and whether it succeeds.

I have a strong preference for the former, but the latter is also a popular option.


It's a good thing DnD 5e has literally all those things if you want them, huh.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Not necessarily. It may come to a matter of gaming taste.

One system may have rules for disarming, or making a powerful attack at the expense of defence, or distracting opponent. Another may have no such thing, but instead leaves it in the purview of the GM to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis what a character may attempt, what the parameters are, and whether it succeeds.

I have a strong preference for the former, but the latter is also a popular option.


It's a good thing DnD 5e has literally all those things if you want them, huh.


I don't play any flavour of D&D any more, but thanks.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 harlokin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Not necessarily. It may come to a matter of gaming taste.

One system may have rules for disarming, or making a powerful attack at the expense of defence, or distracting opponent. Another may have no such thing, but instead leaves it in the purview of the GM to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis what a character may attempt, what the parameters are, and whether it succeeds.

I have a strong preference for the former, but the latter is also a popular option.


It's a good thing DnD 5e has literally all those things if you want them, huh.


I don't play any flavour of D&D any more, but thanks.


Then what purpose could you possibly have in coming into a thread about the latest edition of a game you don't play and claiming it doesn't have mechanics that it does actually have?


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Not necessarily. It may come to a matter of gaming taste.

One system may have rules for disarming, or making a powerful attack at the expense of defence, or distracting opponent. Another may have no such thing, but instead leaves it in the purview of the GM to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis what a character may attempt, what the parameters are, and whether it succeeds.

I have a strong preference for the former, but the latter is also a popular option.


It's a good thing DnD 5e has literally all those things if you want them, huh.


I don't play any flavour of D&D any more, but thanks.


Then what purpose could you possibly have in coming into a thread about the latest edition of a game you don't play and claiming it doesn't have mechanics that it does actually have?



I am interested in RPGs. Other editions and other RPGs were mentioned, and part of the discussion was game design in general.

D&D combat, from it's inception has been 'roll d20 and see what happens'.

If you don't care to interact with me, don't.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

When I first started this thread, D&D combat was boring and part of the reason was because the group I had joined was not ready to approach combat as something other than crunchy crunch and always do the "optimal thing" you can do stat-wise. Neither the DM or the other players were ready for my "RPG based" approach to solving combat encounters.

Now that I have played with the group for a couple months, they have altered their styles a lot. Now it is much more narrative and forcing the DM to come up with what to roll and do in order for things to happen beyond a simple d20 combat roll all the time.

This was an evolution the Players had to go through on how to use the system differently.

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D20 is a minature game. 4th is no more or less a miniature game than 3rd or 5th. The moment the combat is measures on 5 ft squares in a grid its built to work with miniatures.

Go to your flgs. Wizards has miniatures to sell you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
That is disingenuous. This whole thread is about dms stepping outside the box to accommodate players doing whacky gak.

5th has far less allowances than 3rd for the sake of simplicity. Like disarms and feints being basically non existant rules wise. How individual dms handle those situations, with luck rolls, advantage/disadvantage, and whatever is all well and good but that is dm intervention when the system itself fails to hold up its end of the bargain.

And that was my point. Of course the players and dm can just do what they want. But shouldnt the game just work allowing it to begin with?


I mean, again, I've played fifth all of one single time, but disarms and feints are both things that my Fighter has the option to do. It's baked into the subclass that he got really excited about, and looking at the subclasses I have to admit that I like that the mechanically intense sorts of combat maneuvers were gated behind that one particular subclass and, if you want, you can choose to have one that's infinitely simpler if you so desire.

If I had presented this player with a character sheet that included "Feinting Strike, Parry, Riposte, Disarming Strike, Goading Strike" etc on his first playing session, his reaction would have been identical to mine when I tried fourth and got handed a fistful of cards that said "once per day, once per short rest, once per encounter" and got told "so these are all the things your character can do, keep track of them!"

But now that he's had about 12 hours of play time under his belt, and he's got the hang of the basics, he can branch out and play around with the more complicated tricks and maneuvers and decide what his character's fighting style is.


Those things shouldnt be bespoke subclass options. They should just be what a person can do with weapon in hand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 13:38:00



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 Lance845 wrote:
D20 is a minature game. 4th is no more or less a miniature game than 3rd or 5th. The moment the combat is measures on 5 ft squares in a grid its built to work with miniatures.

Go to your flgs. Wizards has miniatures to sell you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
That is disingenuous. This whole thread is about dms stepping outside the box to accommodate players doing whacky gak.

5th has far less allowances than 3rd for the sake of simplicity. Like disarms and feints being basically non existant rules wise. How individual dms handle those situations, with luck rolls, advantage/disadvantage, and whatever is all well and good but that is dm intervention when the system itself fails to hold up its end of the bargain.

And that was my point. Of course the players and dm can just do what they want. But shouldnt the game just work allowing it to begin with?


I mean, again, I've played fifth all of one single time, but disarms and feints are both things that my Fighter has the option to do. It's baked into the subclass that he got really excited about, and looking at the subclasses I have to admit that I like that the mechanically intense sorts of combat maneuvers were gated behind that one particular subclass and, if you want, you can choose to have one that's infinitely simpler if you so desire.

If I had presented this player with a character sheet that included "Feinting Strike, Parry, Riposte, Disarming Strike, Goading Strike" etc on his first playing session, his reaction would have been identical to mine when I tried fourth and got handed a fistful of cards that said "once per day, once per short rest, once per encounter" and got told "so these are all the things your character can do, keep track of them!"

But now that he's had about 12 hours of play time under his belt, and he's got the hang of the basics, he can branch out and play around with the more complicated tricks and maneuvers and decide what his character's fighting style is.


Those things shouldnt be bespoke subclass options. They should just be what a person can do with weapon in hand.


I guess my question then would be: what do you have to distinguish the various weapon-using classes, then? It seems to me, if you want to include Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue, which are the fighting classes I would say are the most difficult to differentiate using spellcasting (All of them can use subclasses and multiclasses to get to some spellcasting, but by default do not have access to that. I leave out Ranger Bard and Paladin because they have in-built spellcasting that you can argue differentiates them from other weapon-focused classes)

The way DnD 5e handles that is to take those special things you can do with a weapon in hand, and divides them up amongst the various classes (or in some cases, expands access to them so that you can do them in addition to a normal combat attack, or better than other classes do them).

Basic weapony attack actions:
-Dodge
-Disengage
-Attack
-Throw a weapon light enough to be thrown
-Shoot a ranged weapon
-Attack twice with two small weapons

Actions that are available as default (not subclass gated) to various martial classes
-Big strong attack that leaves you open (Barbarian)
-Sneak attack that requires you to fight from an unexpected angle but does more damage (Rogue)
-Protect an ally with a shield (Fighter)
-stun an enemy with an attack or deflect a ranged attack(monk)

etc.

It makes more sense to me that those kind of actions that you argue are "just things you should be able to do with a weapon" should only be that if there's a reasonable chance you'd be able to do them if you were just...a guy. without any kind of particular combat training. If you handed me a sword, with no formal training, I'd probably be able to hit someone with it, try to use it to make sure my opponent didn't hit me, hold it up threateningly so I could safely back away, or try to distract an opponent so my buddy could hit them. If EVERYBODY can perform all the specialized combat actions, how do you distinguish a single-combat specialized duellist from a rampaging barbarian who wants to use a huge axe to cleave through their enemies?

If you told me "OK, disarm them" or "OK, do a feint so they think you're going one way but you're actually going another" I'd probably just...not know how to do that. Also, Disarming is potentially an INCREDIBLY potent effect in a game where a huge amount of an enemy's damage potential might depend on them having the flaming magic sword of doom - I can absolutely see why actually permanently removing an opponent's weapon and sending it flying across the room for them to have to go pick up is a hyper-specialized thing. Just temporarily impeding an opponent's attack with a weapon by knocking it aside or trying to hold it is much less of a gigantic power swing in a fight, and...surprise, that's an action everyone gets.

So it makes sense for those things to be default actions, but only if the players are ALL going to be playing, by default, people who have formal training in combat with weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 13:59:42


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I agree with the scotsman - I would not expect a rogue to be able to perform reckless attacks any more than I would expect a barbarian to be able to perform sneak attacks, or a fighter to perform stunning monk attacks. It's an important part of the class system that these are class locked - if you want to learn them, you need to learn some of that class. nothing to stop a level 6 character being a level 3 rogue and a level 3 barbarian. Or a level 3 monk and a level 3 fighter. You can get access to a lot of mixed abilities, but I agree that you shouldn't have them all as options - otherwise the fighter, whose specialty is his trick moves and combat prowess, might as well be a wizard - all the same moves, but now also fireball.

I think the idea is that a sorcerer, who relies on magic for fighting, would know which end of a sword is the sharp one, but would not know fencing moves like feints, and would lack the confidence for reckless attacks, the guile for sneak attacks, the skill for stunning strikes. he can stab someone, but that's the extent of his skill.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

D20 is a minature game. 4th is no more or less a miniature game than 3rd or 5th.
Eh, you’re sorta right. That five-foot step in 3E makes it really hard to argue that it’s not a minis game, although people argue that point nonetheless. With 4E, the cat was entirely out of the bag (a good thing IMO). 5E is designed so you can play its combat as a minis game if you want to but you could also not if you don’t want.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 14:22:35


   
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 some bloke wrote:
I agree with the scotsman - I would not expect a rogue to be able to perform reckless attacks any more than I would expect a barbarian to be able to perform sneak attacks, or a fighter to perform stunning monk attacks. It's an important part of the class system that these are class locked - if you want to learn them, you need to learn some of that class. nothing to stop a level 6 character being a level 3 rogue and a level 3 barbarian. Or a level 3 monk and a level 3 fighter. You can get access to a lot of mixed abilities, but I agree that you shouldn't have them all as options - otherwise the fighter, whose specialty is his trick moves and combat prowess, might as well be a wizard - all the same moves, but now also fireball.

I think the idea is that a sorcerer, who relies on magic for fighting, would know which end of a sword is the sharp one, but would not know fencing moves like feints, and would lack the confidence for reckless attacks, the guile for sneak attacks, the skill for stunning strikes. he can stab someone, but that's the extent of his skill.


And even more than that - again, just talking PURE mechanics here, pure rules as written no asking the GM, the sorceror who barely knows where the pointy end is CAN STILL DO ALL THOSE THINGS, he's just bad at them so they're in no way as good as if the other character archetypes tried to do them.

Let's say I'm a sorceror and I want to do a sneak attack on an enemy. I can take my turn to Hide, make an opposed Stealth vs Perception check on an enemy (which is probably not great), then take my next turn to attack him in melee with my weak weak sword arm, and I do get advantage on the roll, but that's it.

Now let's say I'm a rogue, dedicated to this sort of thing. I take a bonus action to slip out of sight, then my main action to perform a sneak attack on that same enemy. I do it all in one turn, get advantage on the roll, AND do an extra D6 damage because I'm a dedicated sneakerboy and I know where to stick it to hit the kidneys.

Or let's say I want to use Sorceror Mcunadvisableaction to disable a dude attacking me with a knife. I can use a Shove action in place of an attack to make an opposed strength (Athletics) check and he gets to choose either Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) to oppose me. if I win, I knock him prone, and he's got disadvantage on all attacks and defense unless he chooses to get up using his whole action.

I can do the same action if I'm instead playing a fighter who is a wrestler, but I can use Shove to knock the dude prone, action surge to grapple the dude, deal bonus damage to him as if I'd also punched him because I'm a wrestling specialist, and use my movement to drag the dude 15 feet.

Because the 95 pounds soaking wet sorceror does not and should not have the same action options in combat that macho man randy savage has.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 some bloke wrote:
I agree with the scotsman - I would not expect a rogue to be able to perform reckless attacks any more than I would expect a barbarian to be able to perform sneak attacks, or a fighter to perform stunning monk attacks. It's an important part of the class system that these are class locked - if you want to learn them, you need to learn some of that class. nothing to stop a level 6 character being a level 3 rogue and a level 3 barbarian. Or a level 3 monk and a level 3 fighter. You can get access to a lot of mixed abilities, but I agree that you shouldn't have them all as options - otherwise the fighter, whose specialty is his trick moves and combat prowess, might as well be a wizard - all the same moves, but now also fireball.

I think the idea is that a sorcerer, who relies on magic for fighting, would know which end of a sword is the sharp one, but would not know fencing moves like feints, and would lack the confidence for reckless attacks, the guile for sneak attacks, the skill for stunning strikes. he can stab someone, but that's the extent of his skill.


And this is when you stop considering characters people and start considering them diablo or wow classes.

The dread pirate roberts can disarm, and parry, and dodge, and wrestle, and is he a rogue or a fighter? Hes a person. And a person with a weapon can use it. This is the issue with class based games. Your putting people into boxes, which means you need to specialize the boxes, which then strips logical options from the other boxes. Why shouldn't the barbarian be able to parry and dodge and disarm? You know conan? The archetype from which the barbarian exists? Hes known for stealth, sneak attacks, parrys, disarms, feints, and rages. So what the hell? At least in 3rd he could take feats. In 5th its not even a fighter thing. Its a fighter SUB CLASS thing. The op talked about fighting in interesting ways. So why is it only one subclass that gets the stock standard interesting melee options?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another example. Fahferd and the grey mouser. Fritz liebers classics. Fahf is a barbarian singer and the grey mouser is a rogueish wizards apentice who learned enough about magic to know to stay away from it (but could still do it). They are both theives. They both sneak attack. And they both have done mock battles with parry dodges feints and gak to make money as they travel around. Arguably they are both bards to some extent. So what? How do you make those characters?

Both have supernatual entites as patrons... So warlocks too?
Faf also became a prophet for issac of the jug, a minor god.

So what?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/28 16:42:31



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 Lance845 wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
I agree with the scotsman - I would not expect a rogue to be able to perform reckless attacks any more than I would expect a barbarian to be able to perform sneak attacks, or a fighter to perform stunning monk attacks. It's an important part of the class system that these are class locked - if you want to learn them, you need to learn some of that class. nothing to stop a level 6 character being a level 3 rogue and a level 3 barbarian. Or a level 3 monk and a level 3 fighter. You can get access to a lot of mixed abilities, but I agree that you shouldn't have them all as options - otherwise the fighter, whose specialty is his trick moves and combat prowess, might as well be a wizard - all the same moves, but now also fireball.

I think the idea is that a sorcerer, who relies on magic for fighting, would know which end of a sword is the sharp one, but would not know fencing moves like feints, and would lack the confidence for reckless attacks, the guile for sneak attacks, the skill for stunning strikes. he can stab someone, but that's the extent of his skill.


And this is when you stop considering characters people and start considering them diablo or wow classes.

The dread pirate roberts can disarm, and parry, and dodge, and wrestle, and is he a rogue or a fighter? Hes a person. And a person with a weapon can use it. This is the issue with class based games. Your putting people into boxes, which means you need to specialize the boxes, which then strips logical options from the other boxes. Why should the barbarian be able to parry and dodge and disarm? At least in 3rd he could take feats. In 5th its not even a fighter thing. Its a fighter SUB CLASS thing. The op talked about fighting in interesting ways. So why is it only one subclass that gets the stock standard interesting melee options?



Again, you are just wrong on this. Everyone, every single guy in dnd of every single class, can perform combat maneuvers outside of just "attack". They can all engage in opposed skill test rolls where both players roll a D20 and add their relevant skills. Everyone can:

Hide (Opposed skill check stealth vs perception)
Dodge (disadvantage on attacks coming at you)
Grapple (Opposed athletics vs athletics or acrobatics skill test to reduce opponent's movement to zero)
Shove (Opposed athletics vs athletics or acrobatics skill test to push an opponent one square or knock them prone)
Aid (Grant advantage to an ally's attack vs a melee range enemy)

And if there's something that irritates you that isn't in that list, odds are there's an optional rule presented somewhere. Let's take Disarm since we've been talking about it. DMG page 271, Disarming Attack.

"A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller."

The only distinction between this and the special Battle Master "Disarming Strike" is you don't get to do damage in addition and it's an opposed check rather than your roll being replaced with a more reliable saving throw. Now, picking your weapon up is actually something that you can do as part of your movement action on your turn, so if an opponent goes immediately after you, you can just pick it up. But if you had a free hand, you could grab the weapon yourself, or an ally could grab it if their turn was before your opponent's.

Until I actually tried this system, I definitely thought the way you did regarding classes. But digging into it...classes are incredibly permissive compared to other systems I've looked at. You can just take levels in another class if you want to do their special gak, and usually their special gak can be replicated in different ways with different classes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
I agree with the scotsman - I would not expect a rogue to be able to perform reckless attacks any more than I would expect a barbarian to be able to perform sneak attacks, or a fighter to perform stunning monk attacks. It's an important part of the class system that these are class locked - if you want to learn them, you need to learn some of that class. nothing to stop a level 6 character being a level 3 rogue and a level 3 barbarian. Or a level 3 monk and a level 3 fighter. You can get access to a lot of mixed abilities, but I agree that you shouldn't have them all as options - otherwise the fighter, whose specialty is his trick moves and combat prowess, might as well be a wizard - all the same moves, but now also fireball.

I think the idea is that a sorcerer, who relies on magic for fighting, would know which end of a sword is the sharp one, but would not know fencing moves like feints, and would lack the confidence for reckless attacks, the guile for sneak attacks, the skill for stunning strikes. he can stab someone, but that's the extent of his skill.


And this is when you stop considering characters people and start considering them diablo or wow classes.

The dread pirate roberts can disarm, and parry, and dodge, and wrestle, and is he a rogue or a fighter? Hes a person. And a person with a weapon can use it. This is the issue with class based games. Your putting people into boxes, which means you need to specialize the boxes, which then strips logical options from the other boxes. Why shouldn't the barbarian be able to parry and dodge and disarm? You know conan? The archetype from which the barbarian exists? Hes known for stealth, sneak attacks, parrys, disarms, feints, and rages. So what the hell? At least in 3rd he could take feats. In 5th its not even a fighter thing. Its a fighter SUB CLASS thing. The op talked about fighting in interesting ways. So why is it only one subclass that gets the stock standard interesting melee options?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another example. Fahferd and the grey mouser. Fritz liebers classics. Fahf is a barbarian singer and the grey mouser is a rogueish wizards apentice who learned enough about magic to know to stay away from it (but could still do it). They are both theives. They both sneak attack. And they both have done mock battles with parry dodges feints and gak to make money as they travel around. Arguably they are both bards to some extent. So what? How do you make those characters?

Both have supernatual entites as patrons... So warlocks too?
Faf also became a prophet for issac of the jug, a minor god.

So what?


I don't know much about the story, but I'd guess something like (depending on what aspects of their personalities you want to lean into)

Fahferd: Barbarian, background Entertainer which gets you Performance for the mock battles and singing, maybe something like Path of the Zealot if you want to lean into the whole god thing, or else go for Barbarian/Fighter if you want the battle master attacks. Everyone can sneak attack to get surprise rounds and advantage on attack rolls, so there's no reason he has to be a rogue.

I don't know, I would view Barbarian more as "someone who gets mad and smashes" more so than a particular background of "someone from a non-civilized society." If it doesn't make sense for Faf to go into fits of rage when he fights, Fighter as a primary class seems more apt - he sounds more tactical from your description.

Mouser: Arcane Trickster rogue. You got magic, you got stealing, you got sneak attacks. Go for Charlatan background for more stealing gak.

You're viewing classes as a rigid fixed entity, they're just names for how the different rules work and interact. Not everyone who has a divine entity speak to them or grant them abilities has to be a cleric. There are multiple different subclasses of barbarian or paladin or fighter or whatever that allow you to make a character the way you want them to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 17:07:07


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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MN

Yeah, if certain things only certain classes can do.... you are getting into some of the root issues of D&D beyond just "Combat is boring".

Why are there arbitrary class distinctions anyway? I played a game where the big choices were race and if you could/could not wield magic (everyone had some innate magic). Everything else was stat and skill based so I could have a guy who could use magic, wear armor, throw a spear, and cook really well. However, he couldn't ride a horse or fast talk his way out of a situation. He was a pretty well rounded character.

Magic was limited by a different usage mechanic, you only had so many skill points to spread around, so many stat points, etc. The limits were not based on an arbitrary class distinction but on character creation resource management.

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 Easy E wrote:
Yeah, if certain things only certain classes can do.... you are getting into some of the root issues of D&D beyond just "Combat is boring".

Why are there arbitrary class distinctions anyway? I played a game where the big choices were race and if you could/could not wield magic (everyone had some innate magic). Everything else was stat and skill based so I could have a guy who could use magic, wear armor, throw a spear, and cook really well. However, he couldn't ride a horse or fast talk his way out of a situation. He was a pretty well rounded character.

Magic was limited by a different usage mechanic, you only had so many skill points to spread around, so many stat points, etc. The limits were not based on an arbitrary class distinction but on character creation resource management.


Probably because it's the single most mass-market roleplaying game out there, and a lot of the gak in it is designed to be instantly approachable. it's a roleplaying game designed to accommodate people who don't roleplaying game and people who like more complexity.

It's just kind of goofy to call class disinctions arbitrary...they aren't arbitrary, they're subdivided into easily digestible packages for folks who aren't familiar with RPGs. Hence why I'm playing this one with my traditionally non-nerdy friends.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Bull gak dnd is accessible. Explain to non gamers why you have 2 numbers to tell you how strong you are when you only ever use one of them. Attributes are one thing. But attribute modifiers are another and the one you actually care about.

If dnd was designed from the ground up to be accessible then your strength would be 3 and you would be adding your strength to things.

The truth is dnd is the oldest and most well known. Its popular for that alone. It has brand recognition and is marketed well. Its the same reason 40k is the most popular mini war game despite having rules written by dyslexic children and being a miserable slog.


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 Lance845 wrote:
Bull gak dnd is accessible. Explain to non gamers why you have 2 numbers to tell you how strong you are when you only ever use one of them. Attributes are one thing. But attribute modifiers are another and the one you actually care about.

If dnd was designed from the ground up to be accessible then your strength would be 3 and you would be adding your strength to things.

The truth is dnd is the oldest and most well known. Its popular for that alone. It has brand recognition and is marketed well. Its the same reason 40k is the most popular mini war game despite having rules written by dyslexic children and being a miserable slog.


I literally did do that just recently. It was pretty easy. I am playing a game right now with four people whose most complex game experience is probably settlers of catan. It took about 30min in dndbeyond to set their characters up, and they've taken to roll20 dnd extremely easily thanks to the links in the character sheets.

in my experience, the biggest hurdles that non-nerdy types have with role playing games is

1) Roleplaying, saying things as the character, doing things that the character would do

2) what can my guy do?

The class and background system in dnd make it relatively easy to know what kind of a dude you're playing, because you can easily imagine a fantasy character you're familiar with from Lord of the Rings or something and do what they do, and the limited set of abilities that branch out into other abilities but which, critically, are basically optional, is exactly what people unfamiliar with RPGs need.

Characters having fixed, diablo-style abilities and spells is 100% a thing I'm not a fan of in RPGs, but having it, and keeping it somewhat limited, is absolutely an accessibility feature, whether you like it or not.

Out of curiosity, are we going to go back to dodging, dashing, grappling, disarming, pushing, sneak attacks, distracting and such as actions in combat and how those do actually exist within the rules, or are you choosing to drop that subject and go for something else? it is the topic of the thread, after all, if you just want to pivot to "dnd sux" maybe try the general thread?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 18:00:18


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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I have been responding on my phone durring down times at work. Complex breaking up of posts to respond to individual points is more work then its worth in this format. Im happy to get back into that when i have a co puter where i can reference documents and use quote unquote to make it not an unintelligile wall of text. If it gets too far away im happy to pm you so that discussion doesnt get all weird here.


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 Lance845 wrote:
And this is when you stop considering characters people and start considering them diablo or wow classes.

The dread pirate roberts can disarm, and parry, and dodge, and wrestle, and is he a rogue or a fighter? Hes a person.
Could be either. Or a bard. Or a even barbarian, or cleric, or any number of things could be all of these. Or with multiclassing, a couple or even several of them.

The lazy "no, he's a person" is at best little more than a bunch of pointless, asinine frivolity. The class system doesn't reduce characters to just their class. It's just a mechanical way to help people differentiate their characters from other members of the party, in ways that allow each person in the group to add to the experience of the group as a whole. So yes, the Dread Pirate Roberts is a person-- but where do his skills and expertise lie? Surely his skills and expertise are a bit different than Janice from Accounting in the office across the hall. In what way does he typically deal with the world around him? That's pretty drastically different than how, say, Harry Potter deals with the world. Where do his weaknesses lie? There's some things the Dread Pirate Roberts can't do, or can't do very well at all, which is why he has people around him to help him do them. And so on.

DnD is built around a party of adventurers of contrasting roles supporting each other as they explore the world and confront great challenges. Thus the class system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 23:25:15


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I mean, id make him a swashbuckler rogue for sure. You could do Battle Master for him but I feel like he should be doing serious damage to single opponents. .


Luckily everyone can grapple, maneuver, above and disarm so it's really how you want your character to do damage.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 Manchu wrote:
It sounds like what you are really after is a tactical skirmish miniatures game. Try 4E


No thank you. 4E is a tabletop miniatures skirmish game, and I want an RPG. I just want an RPG where the thing that is an important part of most sessions (combat) isn't entirely up to the GM's whim.

For the other poster who made a comment that 3.5/Pathfinder is bad for having rules for combat maneuvers that are bad, well... yes, they are bad for having bad rules. But at least they have rules. You can argue the merits of whether or not particular mechanics are good or bad (3.5 combat maneuvers are terrible/ Pathfinder's aren't great, but are much better) but saying that the lack of rules is superior to the existence of rules is nonsensical. If you have to houserule common combat maneuvers (everybody in an RPG has tried to trip or grapple someone at some point) your game's rules are incomplete. You've also made it difficult for players to move between tables. If I'm at a table with GM A and he says a trip roll is just an unmodified attack roll that leaves the target prone; fine. What happens when I go to play at GM B's table, and he decides that trip attacks are an unmodified attack roll with disadvantage? If I'm used to GM A's method, I'm not going to enjoy rolling twice and taking the worst result at B's table. Now I go to GM C's table, and he's a big 3.5 grognard, so trip is an unmodified attack roll, followed by an opposed strength test. That's 2 rolls to do what I could do with one at GM A's table. Now I play with GM D, and he's brand new to GMing. He's unsure of himself, so he wants to stick to RAW. He doesn't allow trips at all, because there aren't any rules for them. Now what?

When I sit down at a gaming table with my friends, I want to be surprised by the adventure. I want to be surprised by the GM. I do not want to be surprised by the rules.

Lance845 has the right of it. Cinematic Unisystem is the bee's knees. I played in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer campaign that ran for most of a decade and had a blast. But that is because the game actually has rules for combat beyond "swing weapon" or "cast spell". It is an example of an actual easy-to-learn, rules-light system that works without having to ask the GM's permission to do stuff. But good luck getting anyone to play it. The books are out of print and the Whedonverse shows are long off the air and out of the public conciousness.

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Also with Conan the barbarian, him being renowned for sneak attacks etc, he's probably a high level character, not a starting barbarian, and he could well have some levels in other classes.

If there weren't classes then it would make leveling up a slightly more boring affair. gritty realism doesn't do so well in a high fantasy setting.

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 some bloke wrote:
Also with Conan the barbarian, him being renowned for sneak attacks etc, he's probably a high level character, not a starting barbarian, and he could well have some levels in other classes.

If there weren't classes then it would make leveling up a slightly more boring affair. gritty realism doesn't do so well in a high fantasy setting.


Have you never played a point buy or classless game? Hellboy rpg uses gurps ( not the best but it exists). Forbidden lands barely has a thing you could call a class. Unisystem has a large series a books for their zombie game all flesh must be eaten that give them other setting themes and fleshed out rules. Dungeon and zombies is their fantasy splat. Arrgh thar be zombies for pirates. The good the bad and the zombie for westerns. Have the players fight anything but zombies and its just an rpg.

Classes and gritty realism are not opposites or in fact in any way related. You can have gritty real games with classes. And you can have cartoony whacky gak with point buy.


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 Lance845 wrote:
Have you never played a point buy or classless game?
I have. A lot of them do actually have a problem at high levels of not much to do with your xp cause you've already got everything, and everyone looking essentially the same.

Which isn't to say class-based systems don't have that problem, but classless systems aren't perfect either. Pick which system matches the game you and your players desire to play, rather than trying to argue which one is "objectively superior" or some other such self-important garbage. I myself like games with either kind of systems, it all depends on the game itself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/29 10:31:56


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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