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just shut up. You know that's not a proper argument.

Any other slippery slopes you want to go on.

Well that doesn’t sound very tolerant. You had the opportunity to express your opinion and I’m just doing the same. I just disagree with you. Telling me to shut up isn’t very convincing.
   
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Kurotenshi wrote:

I agree. How would you even introduce female marines into the fluff at this point? Could you imagine Rowboat having a conversation about the sexist policies of the Imperium? He almost got overthrown due to the indomitus crusade and that didn’t even involve meaningful change of the generally crappy society that is the imperium.


"Hey, Cawl."
"Yes, Primarch Guilliman?"
"Why are there only male SM?"
"Well Primarch Guilliman, I posit that the Emperor was not as good a genetic scientist as He thought and since I am better, I shall improve upon His work yet again. Also, make me Fabricator General."
"Ok do the upgrade thing but no you aren't getting to be Fabricator General."
"*sadface.exe"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kurotenshi wrote:

Well that doesn’t sound very tolerant. You had the opportunity to express your opinion and I’m just doing the same. I just disagree with you. Telling me to shut up isn’t very convincing.


I don't have to be tolerant of nonsense arguments made in bad faith. That's the beauty of all of this, I get to pick and choose which things I will actually answer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 19:20:09


 
   
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Andykp wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
If a new player was to come in to the game now, is there anything in print that states that marines have to be men?
In print? Not that I'm sure, aside from gendered pronouns?

In practice, all the Marines we see are male, all the options for bare heads are masculine-presenting, and there's a decent chance that if you put a female-presenting head on your model, someone will shoot it down for being "non-canon" or "trying to make 40k political".


That is all true. But it kind of ends the debate that the lore must be adhered too, the last mention of this was 19 years ago, before that maybe 32 years ago. Couldn’t possibly change that.


No, it was was re-printed in White Dwarf in 2017 and updated to include some lore on Primaris Marines. It's not something that was posted once about 20 years ago and then not heard of again since.
   
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Ah, so the second mention makes it a must for adherence? Two times in twenty years is hardly justification.
   
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Kurotenshi wrote:How would you even introduce female marines into the fluff at this point?
I'd advocate for:

"They were always around, we just never mentioned them" - like GW did with Centurions, Stormravens, Stormtalons, Stalkers, grav-guns, etc etc
or
"hi Guilliman, while I, the great Belisarius Cawl, was improving on Amar Astarte's Space Marine design, I worked out how we could solve that issue with women rejecting the (totally made up) gene seed problem. I've provided all Chapters with a guidebook how to introduce the enhancements to non-male inductees, that should give your new Imperium many more recruits and soldiers to bolster our Space Marine cohorts. You're welcome." - like GW did with the Primaris.

Again - from what we see of the Imperium, it's not generally sexist. It's so utterly uncaring of gender that anyone can go and die in the Imperial Guard. If women could be made Space Marines, there's no reason they shouldn't. If any Chapters rejected that, they'd do so along the same lines that they might be hesitant about Primaris - but ultimately, when it came to Primaris, most Chapters chose self-preservation and continued relevance in the Imperium than death. I see no reason the same wouldn't happen with women recruits, but I would have no issue if GW said, "some Chapters, like the Black Templars and Marines Malevolent, continue to reject the use of female aspirants, but most Chapters were happy for the new recruits, and some new Chapters sprang into life who recruits exclusively from the female populations of their world".


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I don't have to be tolerant of nonsense arguments made in bad faith. That's the beauty of all of this, I get to pick and choose which things I will actually answer.


Ok. I guess we’ll just agree to disagree, but I remain unconvinced and I don’t see GW printing any female marines based on your arguments.
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
If a new player was to come in to the game now, is there anything in print that states that marines have to be men?
In print? Not that I'm sure, aside from gendered pronouns?

In practice, all the Marines we see are male, all the options for bare heads are masculine-presenting, and there's a decent chance that if you put a female-presenting head on your model, someone will shoot it down for being "non-canon" or "trying to make 40k political".


That is all true. But it kind of ends the debate that the lore must be adhered too, the last mention of this was 19 years ago, before that maybe 32 years ago. Couldn’t possibly change that.


No, it was was re-printed in White Dwarf in 2017 and updated to include some lore on Primaris Marines. It's not something that was posted once about 20 years ago and then not heard of again since.
But is it included in the Codexes? Is it plastered all over their lore from front to back, like how it is with the Sisters of Battle? I'm not aware that it is - so why is it so important? If it were so important, I'd have expected that it would be put in the Codexes.

Why is it so critically important to their identity that something not mentioned in their Codexes be preserved?


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U.k

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
If a new player was to come in to the game now, is there anything in print that states that marines have to be men?
In print? Not that I'm sure, aside from gendered pronouns?

In practice, all the Marines we see are male, all the options for bare heads are masculine-presenting, and there's a decent chance that if you put a female-presenting head on your model, someone will shoot it down for being "non-canon" or "trying to make 40k political".


That is all true. But it kind of ends the debate that the lore must be adhered too, the last mention of this was 19 years ago, before that maybe 32 years ago. Couldn’t possibly change that.


No, it was was re-printed in White Dwarf in 2017 and updated to include some lore on Primaris Marines. It's not something that was posted once about 20 years ago and then not heard of again since.
But is it included in the Codexes? Is it plastered all over their lore from front to back, like how it is with the Sisters of Battle? I'm not aware that it is - so why is it so important? If it were so important, I'd have expected that it would be put in the Codexes.

Why is it so critically important to their identity that something not mentioned in their Codexes be preserved?


But it is brought out every 15 years or so so it’s the most important thing about marines. But it’s not in the current publications at all. But it’s “LORE!” You cannot change it. If you do you will break the entire game.
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Andykp wrote:
If a new player was to come in to the game now, is there anything in print that states that marines have to be men?
In print? Not that I'm sure, aside from gendered pronouns?

In practice, all the Marines we see are male, all the options for bare heads are masculine-presenting, and there's a decent chance that if you put a female-presenting head on your model, someone will shoot it down for being "non-canon" or "trying to make 40k political".


That is all true. But it kind of ends the debate that the lore must be adhered too, the last mention of this was 19 years ago, before that maybe 32 years ago. Couldn’t possibly change that.


No, it was was re-printed in White Dwarf in 2017 and updated to include some lore on Primaris Marines. It's not something that was posted once about 20 years ago and then not heard of again since.
But is it included in the Codexes? Is it plastered all over their lore from front to back, like how it is with the Sisters of Battle? I'm not aware that it is - so why is it so important? If it were so important, I'd have expected that it would be put in the Codexes.

Why is it so critically important to their identity that something not mentioned in their Codexes be preserved?


It's simply that it's something that's a part of the Space Marines and has been so for decades, it's how they were created and changing that for the sake of it does not seem like a good idea at all. They're an order of superhuman warrior monks, there doesn't need to be any specific justification or reason to let them be what they are. The idea that a line of lore and how often that appears is the thing needed to keep them as they're portrayed seems somewhat irrelevant as that isn't the important part, it's that a faction should be allowed to have its own identity and theming and in the case of Space Marines, it's warrior monks. Would you apply this same argument to the Adepta Sororitas or Sisters of Silence - should a relatively small part of their lore stop them from being inclusive and having male members too? Why shouldn't they just change that lore for them too? Why is it so important that they keep their theming?
   
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People keep rolling out how SM are "Warrior Monks". Show me how SM are monks.
   
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Mentlegen324 wrote:It's simply that it's something that's a part of the Space Marines
But is it? Like, really?
and has been so for decades
Like Guilliman being in stasis?
it's how they were created and changing that for the sake of it does not seem like a good idea at all.
It's not changing it for the sake of changing it. It's changing it because it's an outdated relic of exclusionism masquerading as pseudo-scientific jargon.

It had no reason to exist at the time, and has even less now. It's not relevant to modern SM design, it actively works against the current design philosophy, and represents existing exclusionary attitude towards *real human beings*.

And I hasten to add, the only reason they didn't have women in the first place was also "for the sake of it" - so I don't exactly think it's on strong footing.
They're an order of superhuman warrior monks
Citation needed. *Some* Space Marines are. Some Chapters are. But not all of them - case in point, the Space Wolves. What's "monk-ly" about them?
there doesn't need to be any specific justification or reason to let them be what they are.
There kinda is, actually. It's called critical reflection and good design. You don't just chuck things in there as an artist without questioning if it's actually essential or beneficial to your design. And, even if it was, let's apply this the other way around - why did Space Marines need to be exclusive in the first place?
The idea that a line of lore and how often that appears is the thing needed to keep them as they're portrayed seems somewhat irrelevant as that isn't the important part, it's that a faction should be allowed to have its own identity and theming and in the case of Space Marines, it's warrior monks.
Except it isn't. Space Wolves aren't warrior monks. Iron Hands are techno-monks, but by that logic, the Mechanicus should be all-male. Raptors are more like modern spec-ops than monks. Carcharadons are as far from monks as you can get. Minotaurs aren't religious. The Ultramarines are more like Romans or Greeks than Christian monks. And that's before I get into things like the Traitor Legions, who had absolutely no "monk" aspects to them at all, save perhaps for the Word Bearers, and so their lack of women would reflect a massive plot hole.

Face it - the whole "warrior monk" design philosophy died out years ago. Space Marines are most defined by their customisation and player freedom - not "monks in spaaaaaaaace".
Would you apply this same argument to the Adepta Sororitas or Sisters of Silence - should a relatively small part of their lore stop them from being inclusive and having male members too?
I've actually answered this repeatedly, if you bothered to read my comments.

1. The faction design of the Sisters of Battle is so much more closely linked to "nun" imagery it's not even close. The (massively flawed) argument you trot out for Space Marines needing to be male because of their faction design doesn't apply to Space Marines, because they don't have that design philosophy any more - but it's perfect for why Sisters are all women.

2. Sisters of Battle feature explanations as for why they're all women from an in-universe perspective in all the media they're in. Space Marines don't even feature theirs in their Codex.

3. Sisters of Battle aren't Space Marines - and this ranges from their different design philosophies (Space Marines are exemplified by their player freedom and customisation, Sisters of Battle are forced into a very specific aesthetic design and culture) to impact on the wider world (Space Marines are the flagship faction and massively recognisable - Sisters of Battle aren't).

4. The Sisters of Battle faction already includes men. Space Marines don't.

5. I don't even care about Sisters having male members (heh) that much.

7. You'll have noticed that I never mentioned Sisters of Silence here. Why? Because they're barely a faction, and my mentioning them here is more attention than GW gave them this whole year. Sisters of Silence aren't even worth bringing up in this discussion because they're not a faction, they're a single model kit.

8. You'll also have noticed that I didn't include a number 6. Pulled a sneaky on y'all there.
Why shouldn't they just change that lore for them too? Why is it so important that they keep their theming?
I mean, go look back at point 2 - much as the lore isn't permanent, if something is consistently mentioned and placed at the forefront, I think I get the impression that it's seen as somewhat important by GW. And if they wanna change that, they have every right to.

But let's not act like 13 words of lore that don't even show up in the Codex are anywhere close to the same as multiple paragraphs of history fleshing out the history and nature of the setting which are repeated time and time again in the publications of the Sororitas.

But hey - you know what, I'm cool changing that lore too, if it gets us women Space Marines. I don't think it's quite the gotcha you expected.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:24:45



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 Gert wrote:
People keep rolling out how SM are "Warrior Monks". Show me how SM are monks.


That they tend to be a heavily religious brotherhood who's daily life is very stoic and involves a strict routine of activities relating to combat/training and prayer or worship, who are overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals, and who's main base tends to be a Fortress Monastery? If you don't consider them monastic than just what do you think counts?
   
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Kurotenshi wrote:

"this is my super space soldier future sci fi setting, the super space soldiers only take male recruits and women arent allowed because sexism" would be inserting the modern day political discussions surrounding women in the military into 40k.


I agree. How would you even introduce female marines into the fluff at this point? Could you imagine Rowboat having a conversation about the sexist policies of the Imperium? He almost got overthrown due to the indomitus crusade and that didn’t even involve meaningful change of the generally crappy society that is the imperium.


....They make it 'because Science'...and then just have Cawl solve the problem and incorporate female astartes into the next batch of primaris models that were going to be released anyway.

You've even got the setup of, Vahl is a high lord now.

1) set up a plot where some thing - lets say an Ork Waaaagh of beast boyz orks - is threatening some chapter of space marines, and they almost totally wipe out their original members. Lets say the Raven Guard.

2) Guilliman is all like 'oh man, we are running low on the recruits from the initial crusade of primaris, what are we going to do???'

3) Cawl is like 'oh thats a real shame, because I've got all these cool weapons and equipment designed for primaris marines, and we just can't produce recruits fast enough!'

4) Vahl says 'you put me on the council of high lords. The leader of the sisters of battle. You know, that order of extremely potent elite female warriors, who has a school where they harshly train children almost from birth to be fanatically devoted to the imperium, to know how to use bolters and chainswords, and how to wear power armor.

The top of the class at the schola progenum is...right over here, ready to go. Those fancy primaris jump packs, chainswords and lightning claws you've designed for Primaris Marines to match Shrike's set, we could try to make these girls and boys primaris marines and give these to them."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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That they tend to be a heavily religious brotherhood who's daily life is very stoic and involves a strict routine of activities relating to combat/training and prayer or worship, who are overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals, and who's main base tends to be a Fortress Monastery? If you don't consider them monastic than just what do you think counts?


I mean they aren't religious, in fact, the Codex makes a point of the fact most SM view the Ecclesiarchy as dangerous zealots and only tolerate their existence. Chaplains look after the spiritual and mental wellbeing of a chapter, and while they are technically representative of the Ecclesiarchy, being a Chaplain isn't about being a preacher.

Asceticism is a choice, a choice SM don't make and it isn't present across all the chapters. The poster boy faction, the Ultramarines, aren't even particularly ascetic in their lifestyle as Guilliman encouraged his Astartes to become masters of more than just war.

An Imperial Guardsman will live their life to a strict routine, does that make them all monks?

As for their solitary nature, when you have been mentally stripped of the capability to feel most base human emotions and genetically altered to live far beyond the natural lifespan of a mortal, is it really a surprise that SM are seen as solitary beings?

If I bought a monastery and lived in it would I be a monk too?

They wear robes when not in armour but so does like 90% of the Imperium. Robes are just stylish.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:34:48


 
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
That they tend to be a heavily religious brotherhood
Actually, most Chapters don't worship the Emperor. Many will have their own Chapter cults (like Promethean Cult of the Salamanders), but cults aren't what we associate with Christian monks, are they?
who's daily life is very stoic and involves a strict routine of activities relating to combat/training and prayer or worship, who are overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals
The Space Wolves laugh over their mjod at that.
and who's main base tends to be a Fortress Monastery?
And are Stormravens also giant flying birds? And what about Chapters who have fleet bases, and no Fortress-Monastery?
If you don't consider them monastic than just what do you think counts?
I'm curious how you think the Space Wolves exhibit any of those traits, for a start.

I consider those as *some* of the features that make *some* Space Marines what they are, but they don't cover every Chapter, or even the majority of modern Space Marine design.

Again, I reference how their treatment from GW in both the actual models, their aesthetic, their marketing, and their lore, points to the primary design of modern Space Marines being player freedom and customisation. Their monk design is not relevant any more and hasn't been for years, judging from GW's own attitude towards them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:34:06



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Kurotenshi wrote:

I agree. How would you even introduce female marines into the fluff at this point? Could you imagine Rowboat having a conversation about the sexist policies of the Imperium? He almost got overthrown due to the indomitus crusade and that didn’t even involve meaningful change of the generally crappy society that is the imperium.


I think one of the easiest ways would be to suggest women have been made into space marines all along. In the transhumanization process, the hormones and chemicals that perform the transformation largely erase most residual outwardly visible difference between what was once discernable as a woman or man. Space Marines don't really consider themselves human anyway. A story could explore the sacrifice a woman gives up leaving one future as a human female, to become a transhuman space marine. That would be an interesting story.
   
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I am gonna go out on a limb and say the new poster korenteshi is a new account created today, with the express purpose of putting out bad faith arguments for the opposing side of this. The account was created literally today. And has only posted in this forum. I smell Fish.
   
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RegularGuy wrote:I think one of the easiest ways would be to suggest women have been made into space marines all along. In the transhumanization process, the hormones and chemicals that perform the transformation largely erase most residual outwardly visible difference between what was once discernable as a woman or man. Space Marines don't really consider themselves human anyway. A story could explore the sacrifice a woman gives up leaving one future as a human female, to become a transhuman space marine. That would be an interesting story.
I'm entirely on board with that, hell, I've already suggested this earlier in the thread - but then, I'd want the same to apply for male recruits too. A story wherein a batch of both male and female recruits undergo the procedures together, and can barely recognise eachother having come out the other side, having lost both "male" and "female" identities in service of their Chapter.

But, this would also require either removing the male pronouns of modern Space Marines (unreasonably impractical) and making any heads on the sprue gender-neutral in an androgynous way (also fine, but again, *super* impractical), or we just add women, and say that they can look like women just as much as the male recruits look like men. End of the day, as long as whatever happens to one happens to the other, I'm chill with it. As I said - representation is nothing without visibility. And if we want to represent that Space Marines sacrifice all trappings of gender to become "Astartes", then this needs visibly representing, not just "well, they all look like men now".

As an addendum to the whole "Space Marines don't consider themselves human", I agree - which is why their weird design choice to not include women is so, well, weird. I mean, what is it - is the Imperium obsessed with gender to the point where they exclude women aspirants (illogical because of their inclusion of guardswomen), or are they inhuman killing machines detached from the concept of gender (in which case, there should be both ex-men and ex-women in their ranks).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I am gonna go out on a limb and say the new poster korenteshi is a new account created today, with the express purpose of putting out bad faith arguments for the opposing side of this. The account was created literally today. And has only posted in this forum. I smell Fish.
I'm not going to dispute if this account is genuine or not. It's not my place to say. While their arguments have many holes in them, mostly the monk one, they've not been as bad faith as many other arguments made, so I'm not suspicious, or otherwise bothered. I'll call out bad faith in the arguments I see, but I'm not going to try and delegitimise what may be a perfectly human account.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:47:05



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U.k

And now we are back round to “how would they introduce it in the fluff”.

As I said, nothing in print now says you can’t have women. So just make some. In a story, in a model. No new sprue just the next marine kit.

The fluff for my marines is that they didn’t get the memo about it being men only and made women ones and it worked. Other chapters were like, “huh, cool, let’s try it.” Bingo! Women marines. I’ve thrown in a comment about the emperor possibly being gay to really upset the nay sayers too.

Sadly we still live in a world where people thinks it’s ok to make death threats for making a wizard in a children’s book gay or sticking a female looking head on a marine model. But if GW have printed a story 3 times in 30 years, once with a note on it saying not all this is still true by the way, then how the hell can we change something as core as that???

This is why these conversations often end up in name calling, because it’s so ludicrous a stance to take, that the lore cannot change, that to those of us asking for change, we can only assume there’s a hidden agenda. It’s impossible to believe that people actually feel that way about a dozen words that are no longer in print and have only been 3 or 4 times out of hundreds of texts, when every other asp3ct of the lore is open to change and contradiction. (Not saying anyone on here is a bigot btw).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:53:56


 
   
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Andykp wrote:
And now we are back round to “how would they introduce it in the fluff”.

As I said, nothing in print now says you can’t have women. So just make some. In a story, in a model. No new sprue just the next marine kit.

The fluff for my marines is that they didn’t get the memo about it being men only and made women ones and it worked. Other chapters were like, “huh, cool, let’s try it.” Bingo! Women marines. I’ve thrown in a comment about the emperor possibly being gay to really upset the nay sayers too.

Sadly we still live in a world where people thinks it’s ok to make death threats for making a wizard in a children’s book gay or sticking a female looking head on a marine model. But if GW have printed a story 3 times in 30 years, once with a note on it saying not all this is still true by the way, then how the hell can we change something as core as that???

This is why these conversations often end up in name calling, because it’s so ludicrous a stance to take, that the lore cannot change, that to those of us asking for change, we can only assume there’s a hidden agenda. It’s impossible to believe that people actually feel that way about a dozen words that are no longer in print and have only been 3 or 4 times out of hundreds of texts, when every other asp3ct of the lore is open to change and contradiction. (Not saying anyone on here is a bigot btw).


This is like Groundhog day. Except the nightmare is continually knocking down the same arguments 5 times a page.
   
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U.k

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Andykp wrote:
And now we are back round to “how would they introduce it in the fluff”.

As I said, nothing in print now says you can’t have women. So just make some. In a story, in a model. No new sprue just the next marine kit.

The fluff for my marines is that they didn’t get the memo about it being men only and made women ones and it worked. Other chapters were like, “huh, cool, let’s try it.” Bingo! Women marines. I’ve thrown in a comment about the emperor possibly being gay to really upset the nay sayers too.

Sadly we still live in a world where people thinks it’s ok to make death threats for making a wizard in a children’s book gay or sticking a female looking head on a marine model. But if GW have printed a story 3 times in 30 years, once with a note on it saying not all this is still true by the way, then how the hell can we change something as core as that???

This is why these conversations often end up in name calling, because it’s so ludicrous a stance to take, that the lore cannot change, that to those of us asking for change, we can only assume there’s a hidden agenda. It’s impossible to believe that people actually feel that way about a dozen words that are no longer in print and have only been 3 or 4 times out of hundreds of texts, when every other asp3ct of the lore is open to change and contradiction. (Not saying anyone on here is a bigot btw).


This is like Groundhog day. Except the nightmare is continually knocking down the same arguments 5 times a page.


True that^^^^
   
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I don't think the manpower argument will work.

Planets that used to supply manpower for a Legion now cannot support a Chapter?
   
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Tygre wrote:
I don't think the manpower argument will work.

Planets that used to supply manpower for a Legion now cannot support a Chapter?


Well, Nostramo certainly can't...
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:

That they tend to be a heavily religious brotherhood who's daily life is very stoic and involves a strict routine of activities relating to combat/training and prayer or worship, who are overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals, and who's main base tends to be a Fortress Monastery? If you don't consider them monastic than just what do you think counts?

Space Marines for the most part aren't particularly religious. There are exceptions, like Black Templars, bit most have a more pragmatic view of the Emperor.

And here's the thing - The main reason Nuns and Monks were separate orders was that sex was bad, and having people of the opposite gender around would be distracting. That's not an issue for Space Marines, who aren't functional in that department and have no interest in it (something explored briefly in the HH books when the Emperor's Children started feeling all tingly and resorted to extreme violence to sort it out, that being the only functional outlet for them).

So even if we do consider Space Marines to be monk analogues, there's no particular reason for their faith to require segregation of the sexes.

 
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Mentlegen324 wrote:It's simply that it's something that's a part of the Space Marines
But is it? Like, really?
and has been so for decades
Like Guilliman being in stasis?
it's how they were created and changing that for the sake of it does not seem like a good idea at all.
It's not changing it for the sake of changing it. It's changing it because it's an outdated relic of exclusionism masquerading as pseudo-scientific jargon.

It had no reason to exist at the time, and has even less now. It's not relevant to modern SM design, it actively works against the current design philosophy, and represents existing exclusionary attitude towards *real human beings*.

And I hasten to add, the only reason they didn't have women in the first place was also "for the sake of it" - so I don't exactly think it's on strong footing.
They're an order of superhuman warrior monks
Citation needed. *Some* Space Marines are. Some Chapters are. But not all of them - case in point, the Space Wolves. What's "monk-ly" about them?


Funny you should say that. Space Wolves were the 'typical chapter' outlined in the Rogue Trader rulebook, with the Fang detailed as a sample Fortress-Monastery with dedicated prayer spaces and etc.
But then... GW nixed that and retconned them into what people now think of as Space Wolves today. (Around the same time Ultramarines went from a sketchy probationary chapter that had just proven themselves in the m41 Battle of Macragge to the posterboys)

Despite what people want to believe, it turns out background changes really are just that easy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 03:58:24


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Purely on the 'space marines aren't monks' chat,

Sgt_Smudge 798058 11152976 wrote:
Actually, most Chapters don't worship the Emperor. Many will have their own Chapter cults (like Promethean Cult of the Salamanders), but cults aren't what we associate with Christian monks, are they?.



They revere him. Splitting hairs. In practice, they still pray.

And yes, would associate cult quite strongly, actuslly. Might use different names here and there and plenty organisations can be called cults from the outside. Opus dei. Knights of st. Columbanus. Etc. Theres plenty groups, organisations etc within the faith. Plenty heresies too.

And Christian monks aren't the only monks. Don't be so snide.

Sgt_Smudge 798058 11152976 wrote:
The Space Wolves laugh over their mjod at that.


Dunno. Monasteries have a strong drinking and brewing culture. Speak to the German and Scottish friars if you don't believe. Buckfast is one of thr five a day here. I also strongly doubt there's never been monks that drank their own beers, played drinking games, pranked each other with juvenile humour, scuffles etc within the faith or monks that have been more or less irreverent or religious than their peers - the amount of malarkey in the book of Kells for one is extraordinary. One monk wrote a poem about his cat in the margins of a holy text.
Monks are hilariously varied. There's a lot of cool anf over the top stuff there. Especially in a historical context. And monks fought historically. Quite a bit, actually. They were brawlers when they had to be and had no problems throwing down with the best of them (Irish monks in particular) when the clan next door kept stealing their cattle. Then there's monks of the far Eastern variety who practically invented martial arts. Diddling monks were a violent pain in thr side of the daimyo reuniting feudal Japan as well.

And also, on a point of order, in the Space Wolf novels, ragnar spent a hell of a lot of time praying to the Emperor.

Sounds like a lot more of thr monk aesthetics applies to space marines than you want to give credit for.

I'll assume you are simply unaware and doing that unintentional thing again where you jusy dismiss peoplrs arguments out of hand because you don't want to accept them.

Sgt_Smudge 798058 11152976 wrote:
And are Stormravens also giant flying birds? And what about Chapters who have fleet bases, and no Fortress-Monastery?

.


Stormravens as giant flying birbs? And that's your point? Jesus chrsit, Come on, dont be pedantic to the point of farce Smudge. You're doing that thing again of looking for a cheap shot.

As to mobile fleets, like the Daedalus Krata of thr minotaurs? These ships are often individually described as 'Flagships' of their fleets and the usual term ive seen used for for their "command role" in fleet based marines is 'mobile fortress monastery".

The 'warrior monk' thing counts for more than you want to give credit for.

Sgt_Smudge 798058 11152976 wrote:
I'm curious how you think the Space Wolves exhibit any of those traits, for a start.


Quite a few. See above. Thr amount ragnar literally prayed in all of his books shouts down a lot of the 'lol they're nothing like monks' chat. Also the references already put forward - brotherhood etc etc. And the strong elements of priesthood within the chapter is another indicator - iron priest, wolf priest, rune priest suggests a strong religious/spiritual world view which again strongly reinforces the religious brotherhood aesthetics. 'Monk' isn't just a clean, properly enunciated franciscan doing a chant. Monks can be rather varied. I mean, a clean shaven friar will look askance at a space wolf. He's loud. He's smelly. Hew wearing furs.He's probably still drunk. Maybe more so than Klaus even. His command of the prayers themselves might be.. questionable. Someone from a monastery in dark age norway on the other hand might simply mistake him for his mate Ivor and see absolutely nothing amiss. But outside of the dressing, a lot of it is still quite in keeping. Plus, knowing some of the histories of some of the orders- yeah, I can see it.

Sgt_Smudge 798058 11152976 wrote:

I consider those as *some* of the features that make *some* Space Marines what they are, but they don't cover every Chapter, or even the majority of modern Space Marine design.

Again, I reference how their treatment from GW in both the actual models, their aesthetic, their marketing, and their lore, points to the primary design of modern Space Marines being player freedom and customisation. Their monk design is not relevant any more and hasn't been for years, judging from GW's own attitude towards them.


Disagree. Monk design is still a strong fundamental design element of space marines in general. . Regardless, Its still relevant and its still maintained. Traditional, like it or not, still has some importance. Regardless of modern additions, and your world view/aspirations, this is still a game rooted in 80s references and 80s pist thatcherite culture and with a retro/regressive future that draws far stronger on historical archetypes than modern sensibilities and/or hopes, aspirations and optimisms.

And I'd argue player freedom and customisation have always been a thing. And I disagree that sms are the 'blank slate faction" ,any more than they've previously been where 'write your own lore and come up with your own paint sheme' was always a given fundamental. I think you are projecting more than a little bit here because its what you want them to be, not that that's wrong, by the way.

Id also queation the argument around 'player freedom and customisation', In a lot of ways, player freedom and customisation are pushed less now than it was, especially in terms of the models themselves. There only bring rules for released models now and squad upgrades being based on what's in thr box strongly hints at a more wmh approach (this is the model...this is what it has...and that's it...) than the freewheeling, far more open ended free-form of yesteryear. With the new single dynamic poses there are fewer and fewer easier ways of mixing bits and making your models 'yours'.

They might encourage you to write your own story but there's still lines to colour within though.

Andykp wrote:
And now we are back round to “how would they introduce it in the fluff”.

[Snipped sensible reasoning]



You know what? I tend to I share your sentiment. It's not cool that people are attacked for stepping outside of the lines.with respect attacks are on both sides though. There was a guy savaged earlier on in the thread (like p25 i think...) for basically saying 'I'm white, I'm straight, I was bullied and I empathise and agree that representations important and so I support femarines'. He got savaged by someone else on the same side of the argument for daring to do this, that he had no right to talk about his negative experiences or to feel victimised or to empathise. His experiences were devalued and delegitimized and was told to literally 'feth right off' and it really stuck with me how out of line and frankly, disgusting it really was. Then there was thr poster saying how he was a part of an inclusive group, and the response from someone on the femarine side was essentially he was the provlem in the group and reason women didn't come forward with issues was because of him. Some really disgusting insinuations.

Truth is we can all be better.

Bear in mind, there is no hidden agenda for me at least. I have no objections to the setting staying as it is, for the simple reason I think writers shouldn't be policed, or told/suggested strongly what to write and who to write for/shamed if they don't, and if that's the story they want to tell, they should be allowed to tell it. While, admittedly its not entirely the same thing, I'm similarly wary of rewriting the 'classics' or 'books from another time' or burning them/censoring them/forbidding their reading because they include things you wouldn't get away with these days or because they don't fit with our modern expression of culture etc.

That said I think this change opens some interesting doors. So long as it's done well. Ironically on self reflection, I lean towards the 'homebrew/tweak rules' school of thought and frown on the absolutism of the cult of officialdom. Who am I to them complain if someone steps out of the 'lore of officialdom'?

As you ask, How to do it?

Multi pronged and multi-stage approach.

Get rid of the 'thirteen words'. Stick with Gender neutral language - aspirant, neophyte etc. If asked, 'it's old lore, no longer relevant'. If pressed 'does this mean girl marines' answer with 'gw has no officisl.stance on this. your models, do as you will. This is something we've talked about in house and we're going to leave it up to the players'. Soft squat. As a start. I'd also expand the sisters range and more new/mixed guard at this point. Push other factions other than the marines. Marine fatigue.

Assuming the world then doesn't end (pretty sure it wont), write it in properly. In terms of 'How"? Let's not 'primaris' it. Let's have some decent lore. I think 'thry were always there's is cheap.

Primarchs were whisked into the void. The Emperor needed soldiers desperately, he's lost most of his data, he had to make do with what was available. Astartes. Male only because of reasons. But it was never the final plan or the complete intent. The astartes project was unfinished and only rushed into production put of desperation as slanesh was about ti be rubbed out by the eldar. The work was unfinished. He thought I'll conquer the galaxy, then do it. Nope. Heresy erupted just as he'd started the work and we all knew what happened then. Loyalist primarchs afterwards decide to complete his project and give it to cawl, simce the imperium is buggered and they need every advantage. but without the emperors genius, it takes him.10k years to finish the job and make marines how they should have always been.

Introduce valkyries (seriously want those not-reivers!) via the space wolves who explain some of this and then via the rest if the aatartes. Maybe a few names characters with at least 1 model.

Old lore is respected. New lore tastefully introduced. And it still allows those who wish to 'maintain their traditions' to do so, while I go and buy all the not-reivers.

Actually, you know what? Even if gw never writes it, that's now my head canon.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 08:48:51


 
   
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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

The monks stereotypes applies partially to the Marine and only to some chapters. And the militant order or warriors isn't exclusively male (think about the Amazons, or the Valkyries).

There's another tropes however much more constant specifically when people that never sees one before see a marine: they're consistently presented as "angel".

There's a saying about discussion to determine the sex of angels.

Also, expectations are a funny thing. I've recovered both the Index Astartes 1 and 2. I was pretty sure somewhere a mention to the Marine gender would appear. Guess what? Wasn't there.
I always implied it, but in the entire two book there isn't a single mention to the fact that Marine are male (aside from some gendered pronouns). Reading all the 19 steps of the implantation process and the implications of that makes even clearer that neither the sex or the gender of the candidate have any bearing.

Finally, if we're talking about lore and consistency, There something else that I notice that irks me more: the genetic lineage aspect.
The progenoids requires combat experience to mature, and the genetic material may wary.
But as far as I'm aware the "lineage" of the progenoids is never mentioned as important: the two direct genetic descendants of Calgar, or the Emperor Champion, or other famous Marine Heros are faceless recruits....
That flys in the face of all the genetic obsession that otherwise Marine have in tracking their descendancy, their purity and their Primarchs and ancestors.

I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it. 
   
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 Cybtroll wrote:

Also, expectations are a funny thing. I've recovered both the Index Astartes 1 and 2. I was pretty sure somewhere a mention to the Marine gender would appear. Guess what? Wasn't there.
I always implied it, but in the entire two book there isn't a single mention to the fact that Marine are male (aside from some gendered pronouns). Reading all the 19 steps of the implantation process and the implications of that makes even clearer that neither the sex or the gender of the candidate have any bearing.

'These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue tests and psychological screening.'
'Rites of Initiation: The Creation of a Space Marine' in Index Astartes Volume I, pg.7 (my emphasis)
   
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The thing is that SM still don't view the Emperor as a God, and their prayers are not meant as such. You can still worship something if you aren't religious, the concepts aren't exclusive.
And again, if I live in a monastery with my friends, are we all monks because of that?

As for SM being the most customisable and blank slate army, the majority of the range comes with no inbuilt iconography or design cues that hobbyists are restricted by when making "Their Dudes".
The models are generally larger allowing for more space to apply customisation.
By having the largest range SM have the most bits to draw upon when making custom minis while the lack of inbuilt detail means that detailing can be added through choice.
SM have no design cues they must abide by when making a custom army. They don't need to follow in their parent chapters footsteps as seen with chapters like the Emperors Spears and Black Templars. You can go from post-apocalyptic survivors with scrapped armour to gilded Knights in shining armour and it's all 100% ok and doable in universe.
   
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Deadnight wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Actually, most Chapters don't worship the Emperor. Many will have their own Chapter cults (like Promethean Cult of the Salamanders), but cults aren't what we associate with Christian monks, are they?.
They revere him. Splitting hairs. In practice, they still pray.
Revering him as a man is different to as a god. No, they explicitly *don't* follow the Imperial Cult, save for a selected few Chapters. Sorry, but no, it's not the same thing.

And yes, would associate cult quite strongly, actuslly. Might use different names here and there and plenty organisations can be called cults from the outside. Opus dei. Knights of st. Columbanus. Etc. Theres plenty groups, organisations etc within the faith. Plenty heresies too.

And Christian monks aren't the only monks. Don't be so snide.
You know exactly what this about though - this is about the stereotypical depiction of ascetic, cloistered Christian monks, who coop up in monasteries away from all the scary nuns. That's why gender came into this - because apparently they're themed off of monks, so that's why they don't have women. Very clearly, they're referring to Christian monks.

Also, while you bring in how you could associate "cults" with "monks", I'd also like to say that cults aren't always mono-gender, and are more often mixed gender. So, in a discussion about how being religious is an excuse to segregate on gender, that's not a point in your favour.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Space Wolves laugh over their mjod at that.
Dunno. Monasteries have a strong drinking and brewing culture.
Brewing culture? Yes.

Getting absolutely blasted on high strength incredibly toxic booze so potent that even Space Marines get drunk on it? Hahaha, no.

And again - look at the context. Their comments were about how Space Marines were isolated, individual, and ascetic - not carousing over mjod and mead halls. They very clearly weren't talking about perhaps the reality of monks (who almost certainly weren't as virginous as they claimed), but the pop culture icon of them being these hooded, pious, prim and proper religious servants.
And, if you are claiming that Space Marines getting blasted on grain alcohol+ is totally fitting with their monk depiction, why don't other Chapters do it?
Monks are hilariously varied. There's a lot of cool anf over the top stuff there. Especially in a historical context. And monks fought historically. Quite a bit, actually. They were brawlers when they had to be and had no problems throwing down with the best of them (Irish monks in particular) when the clan next door kept stealing their cattle. Then there's monks of the far Eastern variety who practically invented martial arts. Diddling monks were a violent pain in thr side of the daimyo reuniting feudal Japan as well.
Absolutely right. But that's not what was just claimed by Mentlegen324, who said they were:
"overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals"
So which one is it?
Plus, not all monks are men. So, if you wanna go claiming that monks can be totally varied, and don't fit that initial description, I'll also mention that not all monks are men - which is the ultimate issue here.

And also, on a point of order, in the Space Wolf novels, ragnar spent a hell of a lot of time praying to the Emperor.
So do the Imperial Guard. Are they all men too?

I think I should also mention that the Ragnar series is rather old, is it not? I could be mistaken, but I seem to be under the impression it's in the much older category of BL works, pre-Thunderwolves and Murderfangs and Helfrost weapons?

Sounds like a lot more of thr monk aesthetics applies to space marines than you want to give credit for.
No, it's that monks just happen to be incredibly varied - varied to the point that there are women monk orders out there.

What you're missing is that Mentlegen was not referring to those varied orders of monks, but to the stereotypical hooded robe, Latin chanting, cloistered in a dark library scribing books and forever eschewing the company of women monk - and not all Chapters follow that stereotype.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And are Stormravens also giant flying birds? And what about Chapters who have fleet bases, and no Fortress-Monastery?
Stormravens as giant flying birbs? And that's your point? Jesus chrsit, Come on, dont be pedantic to the point of farce Smudge. You're doing that thing again of looking for a cheap shot.
On the contrary, I'd have called "see, they're called fortress-monasteries, that's proof they're all monks!!" as a weak point, because naming can be done for evocative reasons, or simply because they sound cool. Again, it overlooks all the other context of Space Marines not exactly following a monk's code of conduct.
As mentioned just earlier, the Space Wolves were once much more "monk-like" in their fortress-monastery - and then their lore changed, rendering that detail now at odds.

As to mobile fleets, like the Daedalus Krata of thr minotaurs? These ships are often individually described as 'Flagships' of their fleets and the usual term ive seen used for for their "command role" in fleet based marines is 'mobile fortress monastery".
Yeah, flagships, but I don't see "mobile fortress-monastery" thrown around nearly as much. Flagship is the more common phrase by far.

The 'warrior monk' thing counts for more than you want to give credit for.
I disagree, considering the context of what's being said about their ties to being a monk - most notably this line: "overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals". That's not what all Space Marines are.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'm curious how you think the Space Wolves exhibit any of those traits, for a start.
Quite a few. See above. Thr amount ragnar literally prayed in all of his books shouts down a lot of the 'lol they're nothing like monks' chat. Also the references already put forward - brotherhood etc etc. And the strong elements of priesthood within the chapter is another indicator - iron priest, wolf priest, rune priest suggests a strong religious/spiritual world view which again strongly reinforces the religious brotherhood aesthetics. 'Monk' isn't just a clean, properly enunciated franciscan doing a chant. Monks can be rather varied. I mean, a clean shaven friar will look askance at a space wolf. He's loud. He's smelly. Hew wearing furs.He's probably still drunk. Maybe more so than Klaus even. His command of the prayers themselves might be.. questionable. Someone from a monastery in dark age norway on the other hand might simply mistake him for his mate Ivor and see absolutely nothing amiss. But outside of the dressing, a lot of it is still quite in keeping. Plus, knowing some of the histories of some of the orders- yeah, I can see it.
Now, you're absolutely right. Not all monks were the clean franciscans.

You might want to tell Mentlegen that though, because they claimed that Space Marines were monks because they were "overall quite seclusive and ascetic as individuals" - so clearly, either Mentlegen is only basing off the stereotype of monks (which Space Marines aren't), or they're actually referring to the wide and varied orders of monks... some of which include women.
And when considering that this whole thing is about "should Space Marines be allowed women", the existence of women monks in less stereotypical monasteries would actually work in favour of women being part of the Chapters.

So which is it? Are Space Marines stereotypical monks, or not? Because that's the impression I think Mentlegen is working towards, but you're not - which one is it?

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I consider those as *some* of the features that make *some* Space Marines what they are, but they don't cover every Chapter, or even the majority of modern Space Marine design.

Again, I reference how their treatment from GW in both the actual models, their aesthetic, their marketing, and their lore, points to the primary design of modern Space Marines being player freedom and customisation. Their monk design is not relevant any more and hasn't been for years, judging from GW's own attitude towards them.


Disagree. Monk design is still a strong fundamental design element of space marines in general.
Disagree - GW have long since moved past it, and it is more of a background remnant than any actual design currently strived towards. Some Chapters still bear the trappings of the monk design, but most have moved closer to knights or soldiers, both modern and historical.
...modern sensibilities and/or hopes, aspirations and optimisms.
Including women isn't "modern sensibilities" any more so than including non-white characters is a modern sensibility.

And I'd argue player freedom and customisation have always been a thing.
So why can't I take women Space Marines? Why am I explicitly discouraged from taking them?
And I disagree that sms are the 'blank slate faction" ,any more than they've previously been where 'write your own lore and come up with your own paint sheme' was always a given fundamental.
Yeah - exactly. Space Marines have always been the "write your own lore and colour scheme" faction, and GW have only gone and leaned harder and harder into it. Some of the most detailed rules for custom Chapter creation compared to the other "create a subfaction" tables, countless examples of new Chapters being made up in each new publication, guides from GW how to design your own Chapters, easily convertible models, massive aesthetic difference encouraged between different Chapters, GW releasing unpainted funko pops and poseable Space Marines for people to paint in their own Chapters' colours - they're easily the blank slate faction first and foremost.

So why the limitation on gender?
I think you are projecting more than a little bit here because its what you want them to be, not that that's wrong, by the way.
And I'd think that the people clinging to them needing to be male because they're monks are similarly projecting a long-abandoned design feature onto a faction that has moved away from those aspects.

Id also queation the argument around 'player freedom and customisation', In a lot of ways, player freedom and customisation are pushed less now than it was, especially in terms of the models themselves. There only bring rules for released models now and squad upgrades being based on what's in thr box strongly hints at a more wmh approach (this is the model...this is what it has...and that's it...) than the freewheeling, far more open ended free-form of yesteryear. With the new single dynamic poses there are fewer and fewer easier ways of mixing bits and making your models 'yours'.
Making models "yours" isn't about how different they are from everyone else's. It's about how much you can put what you want into them, and if I wanted women Space Marines... well, then I'm kinda out of luck.

Plus, Space Marines still have more options than basically every other faction out there anyways.

They might encourage you to write your own story but there's still lines to colour within though.
Of course there's still lines. I just wonder why the line is drawn below the waist. That's all it really is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gert wrote:SM have no design cues they must abide by when making a custom army. They don't need to follow in their parent chapters footsteps as seen with chapters like the Emperors Spears and Black Templars. You can go from post-apocalyptic survivors with scrapped armour to gilded Knights in shining armour and it's all 100% ok and doable in universe.
Pretty much this.

The sheer variety of what a Space Marine can be is enormous. You can have the super religious Black Templars, or you can go for the Marines Malevolent and their scrapping, stealing, scavenging ways. You can go for the Mongolian themed White Scars, to the Roman themed Ultramarines, to the Viking themed Space Wolves. Your Space Marines can follow the Codex, or they might not. They can worship the Emperor, or they might not. They might be Primaris, they might not. They might be loyalist to the core, or they might flirt with a little bit of a rebellious streak.

All these choices, but women are still off the list? Why?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 12:30:45


 
   
 
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