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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




There are many options to kill tanks in the ne Codex...

But they are all expensive and/or short ranged.

Prisms: Very few shots, expensive and unrelyable (weapon destroyed or stunned)
Fire Dragons: Short range and expensive (since you need a transport)
Brightlances: ...

and the list goes on.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

I like Snakes on a Plane. A Falcon is nigh-indestructible and can get them where they need to go.

Harlequins are another choice that, although not terribly good at vehicle whacking, can be used in a pinch. After all, you've taken them to take on infantry, but if necessity requires it, they can be used against armor.

And for the record, a Wraithlord-mounted Bright Lance is a mere 5 pts more expensive than in the last codex (although it does lose a CC attack).

Pulse Lasers on Falcons, when they're not shaken, can also be used to solid effect on side armor.

Although I think the verdict has to be the Snakes on a Plane. Pulse Laser + 6 Meltas = a pretty decent shot.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





As has been said, 6 BS4 Meltagun shots on a Fast Skimmer is about as close to certainty as you can come. It's not really even a survivability issue when it comes to the Falcon, as it doesn't even need to get shot at. The bottom line is that you can go 12", disembark 2", shoot 6". That's 20" range on an attack that will kill pretty much everything, pretty much automatically. That's also 26" range on an attack that has a very good chance of killing pretty much everything (Melta shots are still S8AP1, even when they don't get 2D6 Pen). This is also not at all expensive. Fire Dragons are a major steal for what they can do, and you're probably going to be taking Falcons anyway, since they're so great.

The Falcon itself is also a major threat to a lot of the armor you'll face through sheer volume of fire, mobility, and the impunity with which it can prance around, Holo-Fields all aglitter. BS3 sucks, sure... The Pulse Laser isn't anything to write home about... But Predator side armor is crap. Russ side armor is pretty crap too. If you get 2 S8 shots, and 7 S6 shots on AV11 or 12... You're probably going to get a result that at least protects you from return fire. If not, so be it. He's not going to kill the Falcon anyway, it's built from magic fairy wings and dreams.

That said, yes, Bright Lances are silly expensive in the Eldar list. No matter where you take them, they're expensive, and often in the hands of BS3 troops. Nothing like the 15 point Lascannons that BS4 Marines get. My preference is twin Bright Lance War Walkers. At 90 points you get two move-and-shoot BS3 Bright Lance shots. Nothing to write home about, but it'll do. A Bright Lance on a Wraithlord can work too, but then you'll need to work Seers into the list to help him keep from getting distracted.



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Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I've converted my old Wraithlord to a Missile Launcher/Brightlance carrier. Eldrad will be staying close with Guide for him. Unfortunately, that is my biggest threat for armor 13 and higher. If we're talking armor 12 or less, most of my army can handle it with the ridiculous amount of S6 weapons.


No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I wouldn't say that the Eldar lack for anti-tank ability. However, I would say that the need for anti-tank pretty much forces all Eldar lists to use some of the same formations.

Prisms and Falcons just don't get to shoot. At best, you're getting three shots per game with them (shoot, get shaken, hide, shoot, get shaken, etc). The Falcon has no chance against front armor, and the Prism doesn't really fare any better; it's certainly got nothing on a Hammerhead, and a Predator even packs more of a punch. Vibrocannons are the only Support Battery that even approach usefulness as anti-tank, and they're not too impressive.

Bright Lances are ridiculously overpriced. I think we can all agree on that.

Wraithguard as Troops choices are awful, and will never be in range. Guardians with EMLs are rather expensive and inaccurate, as well as low strength. Swooping Hawks need to charge to be effective, and they don't have the durability to get in that close to a mobile target. Singing Spears are nice, but you've got to be close, and Warlock squads are too expensive while Guardian Jetbike squads as Warlock delivery systems are rather inefficient. Warp Spiders are kind of promising because of their ability to hit rear armor.

All Eldar anti-tank is bound up in the Elite slots. Harlies have some ability, Scorpions have some ability through their Exarch, Infiltration, and Haywires, and Fire Dragons are obviously pretty good at that sort of thing. Harlequins are good, but can't touch skimmers and need to be in assault range, while Scorpions simply don't cut it next to Harlies in every other way.

However, you've still got nothing but Fire Dragons that have any ability to go up against frontal armor and win. Unless you take them, you're giving up the initiative and giving enemy tanks a free turn or two of moving and shooting at whatever you've got exposed. It's going to be quite difficult to get around to side and rear armor without taking shots, and God help you if a Monolith, Land Raider, or even a Demolisher shows up.

So we're left with the conclusion that the Eldar require Fire Dragons if they want to crack AV13+. However, in order to get any use out of Fire Dragons, you need transports. Falcons are ridiculously superior to Serpents, and the other Heavy Support choices are hardly fantastic, so your decision is pretty much made for you. Any Eldar list that wants to have a chance against vehicles absolutely needs to take Snakes on a Plane. In fact, you should probably take two. That right there runs you around 500 points, though, and it's going to be almost identical across all Eldar lists. That's somewhat annoying, to say the least. It also means that you can't use the other Elite or Heavy choices.

In fact, as I see it, there's really only one other viable way to deal with tanks. It would be possible to build a list around Eldrad and another Farseer using Eldritch Storm to set tanks up for masses of S6 fire. With 3 E-Storms a turn, you're almost certain to end up with rear armor facing you at some point. However, this is also very short-range, and so it also requires that you give Eldrad a transport and the Farseer a Jetbike (or a transport). We're already talking about at least one Falcon, then. I imagine that this would work best with three squads of Warp Spiders.
   
Made in jp
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Gotchaye, Scorpions can't take haywire grenades anymore. Swooping Hawks are the only ones that can now, and with their new ability to hit all vehichles on 4+ at all times now, their beautiful for tank busting.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Swooping hawks are also beautiful for getting hurt tankbusting too.
Tankbusting hawks are best left to min sizes because they are cheap and so that they take up less space on the table so that if the tank happens to fall on them, the risk is greatly reduced.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

But, Hellfury, 5 Hawks won't be enough to drop a tank (.486 vehicle destroyed results). And as it is, 10 Hawks (hitting on a 4+) only have a 14% chance of rolling a 6 on the penetrating hit table. That's higher than I'd like, but it seems like a reasonable risk.

And taking 1 turn instead of 2 to destroy a tank is a big difference. That's 1 turn your opponent gets to move his speeders, DS some Termies, whatever it is, in order to wipe your 5 man T3 4+ unit off the board. Then again, the idea of an expendable 6 man squad is expendable.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Your only real options are fire prisms, snakes, and EML/BL wraithlords. Everything else is kind of a joke.

You can really add to your firepower by takin an autarch with a fusion gun on a jetbike though. One BS5 very mobile fusion gun can come in really handy. A jetbike Farseer with a spear is similarly useful.

Eldar are kind of unique like that, in that their BS5 models can take really nice guns
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

Wraithguard are also a viable anti-tank unit. Glance on a 3-4, pen on a 5-6 gives you 2/3s chance of inflicting damage. Fire dragons are cheaper by far but are less effective against monoliths and Ceremite armored Land Raiders and C'Tan, and you also have to worry about surrounding units fireing on the dismounted aspect warriors. T6 3+ save Wraithguard are less vulnerable when dismounted.
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Fire Dragons are the best short range antitank unit in the game, but two squads in Falcons are about 600pts. Wraithguard are decent, but spendy and so is the non-scoring transport. The EML/BL Wraithlord is pretty good; can't be glanced and puts out good shots. Two Vibrocannons are pretty good if you hide them behind something toward the center of the table, especially in combination with Eldrad's redeploy ability. The HS tanks and Serpents are both good for putting lots of S6 shots (and a few S8+) into the side armor of enemy vehicles.

I think Jetbikes with Spearlock are being given short shrift here. 110pts for 4 guys (including the warlock) who can turbo 24", or move 12", shoot, and hop another 6" (hopefully behind cover), is a pretty good unit to give you a BS4 S9 18" shot against a tank. The cheapest Marines can get a Lascannon is 90, and that's for five tac marines with no plas, completely static. The Guardians have one fewer model and shorter range, but it takes the same number of kills to make them non-scoring, and they're vastly faster and more manueverable.

Shining Spears can serve both assault and antitank duties. 4 plus Exarch w/S8 Starlance are 167.

The BS5 HQs with anti-tank weapons are really a bonus.

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Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

The jetbike unit with spearlock can also follow up their spear attack, if it misses, with an assault if necessary. 2 str9 close combat attacks--especially on a vehicle that didn't move--will probably finish it off. Definitely highly effective against walkers.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic





Minneapolis, MN

So in other words, Eldar are in no way lacking against tanks.

Not like the orks, whose only hope is a bunch of drooling lunatics with bombs on sticks and big metal claws.  Eldar only have a weapon that cuts AV 14 to 12 and flying dragons in an invulnerable tank that can toast anything with 8+2d6 strength. 

Man if Orks could loot Falcons THAT would be interesting.

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Calm Celestian






Ireland

Dark Eldar have Dark Lances that do the same thing.

The pluse laser is 2 str 8 + D6 shots. Not 2d6.

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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Orks have the best anti-vehicle nades in the game.

I play a fluffy alaitoc list, and am debating between Swooping Hawks, or Homemade D-cannons.  D-cannons are 24" radius of Death, but cut my mobility.  Swooping Hawks are VERY mobile and still good vs. Vehicles, but not very strong against troops at all (strength 3?  That hurts).  Close friends play Tau and IG w/ heavy weapons, so I try and stay with things that can hide behind terrain, so skimmers just give them something to fire on.

Impressed with D-cannons in Meatgrinder, but I can see where they are troublesome in Objective mission.  Swooping hawks are better for that, but are less of a threat for controlling where the enemy goes.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As far as Orks go, what about Guntrukk squadrons decked out with Rokkits? They're fast enough to get behind tanks. Or Bikers with powerclaw nobz? Also fast. And I've never seen Zzap guns used, but they could be cool.

The point is not that the Eldar can't deal with tanks, but that they have only one cost-effective way of doing so, which is so superior to any other method they are virtually stuck taking it -- Snakes on a Plane.

The spearlock + guardian bikes option is nice, though. I'll have to give it some thought -- my initial problem is that, unlike Snakes, that unit is fragile, only one scoring unit / target, and can't put Scorpions, Marines, Skimmers, etc in their place the way Snakes can.

-Adso
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Oh, and the idea of Orks looting Falcons is awesome. Anyone for mounting a Falcon as a howdah on a Squiggoth? or putting it on wheels?

-Adso
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I think it would look amazing as a conversion peice- just not a "looted vehicle"- I see the Orks crashing it way more than actually flying.  A Fire Prism Howdah, or a Falcon ground vehicle with wheels- amazing.
   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas




Inland Empire, CA

Mannanhin and Flavius have hit it on the head.

I agree that the Jetbikes with Spearlock' are one of the best anti-tank units the Eldar have available. Moreover, the 3-4 man Warlock squad with jetbikes, singing spears, and destructor are a solid force. What's not to like with 4 singing spears during the shooty and assault phase?

   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

My Wave Serpent has bright lances. Yes I have to pay 45pts for them now but its an old Forgeworld model and back in the previous edition using bright lances on Wave Serpents to take advantage of twin linking your one precious shot made sense.

All told my Wave Serpent cost 135pts with bright lances and spirit stones. APC? Hell no this is a tank destroyer and very very good at its job it is too.


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eldritch storm accounted for 3 vehicles against my Tau yesterday. It actually has a decent chance of hurting AV11 or 12. If it targets a unit, it can hit hit nearby vehicles and unlike other blasts any vehicle touched by the template takes the 2D6 +3. The worst part is you may suddenly see your AV10 facing a bunch of shurikan cannons thanks to the spinning effect.

Effective range is 30", just like an assault cannon.
   
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Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





San Francisco

Also, how is a squad of two or three War Walkers with B.L. + guide not an effective anti tank force?

Sure it is fragile, but if it gets te shots off....

He's not going to kill the Falcon anyway, it's built from magic fairy wings and dreams. -- Phyraxis 
   
Made in us
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





San Francisco

Oh.
And looted Falcons would flat out rule to see. I would happily allow any ork player who used the normal looting rules to use a falcon. If he converted it with a convincing set of wheels.

He's not going to kill the Falcon anyway, it's built from magic fairy wings and dreams. -- Phyraxis 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





If he converted it with a convincing set of wheels.


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Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

Midnight- Interesting. I just did the exact same thing where I play locally. Last turn of the game playing Cleanse, I turned a Hammerhead around (got a Hit on the scatter die) and then shot the rear of it with my Warwalker squadron.

Next game, I dropped it twice (I like Eldrad) on a Pirhana squadron. Killed two and two Warlocks threw down Destructor killing the last one in the squadron.

It was a use of a power I used to think useless. It's not uber, but it was pretty useful in both games.

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Made in ch
Regular Dakkanaut




Zürich

This power is very useful when playing against skimmer lists. Normally Eldar doesn't really pack enough firepower to take down 3 Hammerheads or 3 Eldar tanks, however this this power would seem to make it a lot easier. A bikeseer with Storm could easily spin a tank around...

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Frankly Maugan Ra by himself is better than Fire Dragons at tank busting

Gun: 48 inch range assault 3, strength 6 rending weapon
Defense: 2+ save, immune to instant kill, independant character

I think a squad of good counter damn tough (not deadly just tough) counter chargers would work well. (Conceal Warlock and 20 storm guardians)

I am personally tempted to make an army of 2 squads of DA's, 2 of those storm guardians, Avatar, Maugan Ra, and some harlequins. (not fully fleshed out still working on it)

   
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Fresh-Faced New User





I've seen pictures of an entire Kult of Speed done with falcons converted into trucks, with wheels and a full on evil sunz flame pattern. It looked pretty impressive, but I forget who did it.
   
 
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