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OK, I’m thinking of getting back into 40k.  To begin with, I’ll be building a small (500 pt) army to begin with.  I have three important criterion:

1) Adaptability: The army must be effective and adaptable, since I’ll be playing all kinds of opponents with this fixed list.  No one will be fielding super competitive, cheesy armies, but we do compocompose with some eye towards effectiveness.

2) Characterful: The army should reflect the spirit of either the force as per background or as my background calls for.  However, no silliness here in the name of “background” – IE no filling out my two troops choices in an Eldar army with 6 jetbikes or 10 rangers just to stuff a better list.

3) Affordable, Modelable: The army should be both nice to look at – no including some of the worst models GW makes – and not TOO difficult to afford.  Including a battleforce seems like a good idea to me.

Here are the army lists I have in mind. Attack em with those 3 pts in mind.

I)  Farseer Igdria's Expedition

HQ (75)
Farseer (55) with Guide (20), Shuriken Pistol & Witchblade.

ELITES (80, 155 Transport)
5 Fire Dragons (80)
Transport: Wave Serpent (90) with T-L Starcannon (35), Vectored Engines (20)

TROOPS (202)
5 Dire Avengers (60), 1 upgraded to Exarch (12) with Power Weapon, Shimmershield (15) and Defend (15)

10 Guardians (80) with Scatter Laser platform (20)

TOTAL: 512 Pts

Buy: 1 Battleforce, 1 Farseer, 1 box Fire Dragons

II) The Strachsen XII PDF Governor's Guard

GUARD – 500 pts Efficiency Army
Grenadiers
Sharpshooters
Iron Discipline

HQ (62)
Junior Officer (40) w/Carapace Armor (10), Laspistol (1), CCW (1).
4 Guardsmen: 2 make up Mortar team (+10)

TROOPS (441)

Infantry Platoon (256)
Junior Officer (40) w/Carapace Armor (10), Laspistol (1), CCW (1).
4 Guardsmen: 2 with Plasma Guns (20)
Squad Alpha: 10 Guardsmen, one with Grenade Launcher, one with Autocannon, Sharpshooters (93)
Squad Beta: 10 Guardsmen, one with Grenade Launcher, one with Autocannon, Sharpshooters (93)

Grenadier Squad (185): 8 Grenadiers (80), 1 Plasma Gun (10), 1 Meltagun (80)
TRANSPORT: Chimera (70) with two heavy bolters (15)

Buy: 1 Lt. Blister, 1 Heavy Weapons Platoon, 1 Shock Troops Squad, 1 Chimera, 6 Kasirkin, 2 Kasrkin with Specials.

III) Red Eagles Strikeforce Alphara

MARINES (Vanilla)

HQ (115)
Captain (60) with Lightning Claw (15), Storm Shield (10), Jump Pack (20)

TROOPS (225)

7 Tactical Marines (105), Missile Launcher (10)

7 Tactical Marines (105), Heavy Bolter (5)

FAST ATTACK (155)

5 Assault Marines (110) w/two plasma pistols (10), Vet Sgt (15) with Powerfist (15), Combat Shield (5), Bolt Pistol.

TOTAL: 495

Buy: Battleforce, Captain Set


So, which ones seem most character/effective/etc?  How would you change them?  Any choices I made that seem stupid/strange/unjustified?

I dislike them all, for one piece of critera you left out: Synergy. None of these lists have elements that complement all the other elements, and at this point total I think that is a requirement for an army. Forces in 40k are so small in numbers (of troops involved) that they should be geared like a task force. I hammered on my friend's Tau army about this as well, because the forces involved were so varied it would be a miracle to have the same units arrive at a battle at the same time - until he switched to a task force with the general purpose of being hidden survielence that would call for rapid response.

The Marines seem most believable, perhaps as a patrolling task force.
Hard to tell which is most effective, as you made no mention of how many vehicles/monsters are in your 500 pt games. If there is a Carnifex around, I dont see most of these being able to kill it.
Marines seem to be most affordable too, big surprise .


First step to change them would be to establish a purpose. My Eldar lacked purpose, and it showed. My Sisters of Battle had the purpose of exterminating marines that were no longer faithful, and that purpose really helped with writing an army list. Thing is this purpose has some influence on how the army works together, and a well constructed list with a purpose will excel in Character, and Flexibility (through synergy).

Seems like the Eldar have mainly taken a footslogging approach. Purpose: Perhaps guarding a shrine on a maidenworld, or securing an outpost away from the main war effort. Autarchs, Pheonix Lords and Avatars all make little sense, lets stick with the Seer. A unit of Rangers/Pathfinders would be great here, they'd want some intel. Lets throw in those guardians you wanted, or swap them out for the same number of Dire Avengers - Anti trooper sounds like a fine plan. Nothing strikes me as more secure than a Wraithlord, where mobility would be second to power - he needs a brightlance, but the rest of his gear should be dependant on the background you want for his spirit stone (I'd go sword, and a pair of flamers for a dead Fire Dragon Exarch). That'd probably be the most of your points, but if you have more go for extra guardians/Avengers. Lets see what a rough list would be:

Farseer with Guide , Shuriken Pistol & Witchblade
10 Guardians with Scatter Laser platform
10 Guardians with Scatter Laser platform
5 Pathfinders
Wraithlord + Brightlance

Ok, so now we have a list based off of purpose. Hows it going to play? Well, you'll need to stick to cover and outshoot your opponent, so it's a defensive style (much like the purpose dictates). You have shooting to deal with vehicles, hordes (remember the double flamers on that WL), and probably enough to dent marines. If you get stuck in assault the game isn't over, because your wraithlord will be nearby to bail you out. Independant characters in assault units are destined to die to the WL as well, which saves you from the main threat of small games. Nothing will save you from 3 speeders in 500 pts if your playing a characterful army, but you are as equipped for it as possible. While you lack the ability to assault, you have good reason to close the distance, slap on guide and lay down some hurt. If money is an issue, bump one guardian unit to 16 and give them a star cannon instead of getting the second unit.

I. I really don't know enough about Eldar to help you out there. If I had to make basic assumptions as to how to go about changing them, I'd suggest that you swap the Firedragons for something else, seeing as how you won't be facing any armor better than AV12 at 500 points. It's a ton of anti-tank at short range that will serve no real purpose in a 500 pts game. Against MEQ, that squad may kill a couple, but then, you're already within their doubletap range, in which you're likely to lose most of the squad, if they haven't decided to charge you.

II. Fortunately, I can talk a little bit more confidently about the Guard and the Marine lists. First of all, this list is only so-so, and will not do well against MEQ or horde armies. Fortunately, this list has a fairly high model count, so it can afford to take some damage.

Drop the carapace armor and mortar from your CHQ. It's a waste of points to put a better save on a T3 model, and the mortar it horrible. Since you took Iron Discipline as a doctrine, you might as well pay the 5 points and slap it on to your JO's. I'd also consider giving these squads double plasma or double flamers, to take out charging MEQ or horde, respectively. Close Order Drill is also an awesome doctrine to have, as it will give your commander a Ld9 bubble, on top of his higher initiative, which means you'll strike the same time those Marines do. If you Deep Strike them, give them double plasma to pop enemy units in the backfield, or to take out that annoying light vehicle that's been pelting your gunline. The same should go for your PHQ - ditch the carapace, and give him Iron D.

As for your two line squads, I'd suggest Heavy Bolters for such a low points level. Autocannons are decent up to 1200+ points, at which point they become less and less useful. I field 3 of them in line squads, but they're only alone when I'm below 1200 points. At the net savings of 20 points, you get 2 extra shots per turn, which can still deal with heavier infantry. I'd also ditch the GLs. They're pure crap, as I learned the hard way, and should never be used if only because of the fact that they try to be versatile. Pay the extra 2 points to get a Plasma Gun - you'll kill so much more with it.

Grenadiers, unfortunately, are not all that they're cracked up to be. I love the models themselves, and field 24 at full size, but they're strictly support units that are there to let me get an extra couple of plasma rounds per turn, in addition to some slightly better lasgun saturation. In a pinch, they can do countercharge, but don't expect them to live long. For what it's worth, I'd suggest removing this unit and replacing it with a 10-man Hardened Veteran Squad. They have all the benefits of ST's, minus the armor and AP5, and come with Infiltrate right out of the box. Slap on a trio of Plasma Guns and a Heavy Bolter, and you're in business. Keep the chimera if you like - they're quite nasty at 500 points, and can ruin your opponent's day. Here's the revised list (The remnants are in there to eat up the remaining points):

CHQ - 57 pts
JO w/ Iron Discipline
Staff w/ 2 Flamethrowers

PHQ - 57 pts
JO w/ Iron Discipline
Staff w/ 2 Flamethrowers
Squad w/ Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun - 75 pts
Squad w/ Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun - 75 pts
Remnants (5) w/ Flamethrower - 36 pts

Hardened Vets (10) w/ 3 Plasma Guns, Heavy Bolter - 115 pts
Chimera Transport w/ Turret Multilaser, Hull Heavy Bolter - 85 pts

500 even.
Doctrines:
Close Order Drill, Grenadiers, Iron Discipline

III. Not bad. I'd cheapen up the commander at this point level (Claws are 25 for one and 30 for a pair). I'd give the Marines MLs instead of mixing HB and ML, just to keep you rolling in case the anti-tank gets wiped out, although armor at this level shouldn't be a problem. Your bolters will do most of the talking when it comes to dealing with hordes and GEQ, so no need for long-range fire-support. You won't really need to blow 30 points on a Vet Sarge with a PF at this level, as it is a bit wasteful on points.

Captain (attached to Assault Squad) w/ Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, J-Pack - 96 pts

Tactical (6) w/ ML - 100 pts
Tactical (6) w/ ML - 100 pts
Tactical (5) w/ HB - 80 pts

Assault Squad (5) w/ 2 Plasma Pistol s- 120 pts

496 pts.

Thanks for the quick replies, everyone.

I see the point about purpose – I had been reading about “Snakes on a Plane” on this board, and wanted to include it, but I can probably find the MEQ killing/tank bashing power elsewhere if I have to.

So, for a more purposeful pair of Eldar forces:

First, Marai Starsinger’s rearguard. During the fierce battles for the Blackstone Valley river bridges, Starsinger was charged with occupying two of the high passes in the far south and protecting the Exodite villagers there. All the mobile forces of the Craftworld were allocated to the offensive, but Marai’s loyal apprentice and his family retainers voulenteered to aid him, and two Exarchs from the craftworld’s two least decorated Dire Avenger and Dark Reaper shrines were convinced of the strategic necessity of staying behind by their Autarch.

HQ (75)
Farseer (55) with Guide (20), Shuriken Pistol & Singing Spear (3).

TROOPS (202)
5 Dire Avengers (60), 1 upgraded to Exarch (12) with Power Weapon, Shimmershield (15) and Defend (15)

10 Guardians (80) with Scatter Laser platform (15), Warlock (25) w/Singing Spear (3), Conceal (15)

HEAVY SUPPORT (182)
4x Dark Reapers (140), 1 upped to Exarch (12) with Fast Shot (20), Missile Launcher (10)

TOTAL: 497

Synergy, Battleplan: The Farseer-Dire Avenger squad should be fairly durable in close combat, so it will serve as my countercharge unit should that be needed. The Dark Reapers and Exarch can take out anything the Scatter Laser is incapable of handling, and have a nice armor save on top of that. My main worry is the low model count and minimal mobility. Suggestions?

The second force represents where the mobile forces went in the previous army…works on the idea that you can’t kill what you can’t catch. The Swooping Hawks should be able to kill off tanks well enough with Haywire grenades and the Autarch’s fusion gun, and the presence of the Autarch should make them formidable in close combat. The jetbikes can slash up hordes and stay out of reach, while the Pathfinders can crouch in cover and contest a quarter and get a few AP shots on 5s and 6s.

HQ (105)
Autarch (70) with Swooping Hawk Wings (20), Scorpion Sword (5), Fusion Gun (10)

TROOPS (272)

5 Pathfinders (120)

6 Jetbikes (132), 2 with Shuriken Cannon (20)

FAST ATTACK
6 Swooping Hawks (126)

TOTAL: 492


Working on some more characterful Guard -- very difficult at such a low PV. I was also struck by a cool idea -- how would you suggest representing the forces of a fringe Rogue Trader, kind of a mercenary/independent type who is only affiliated with the Imperium when he has to be?

-Adso

I'm actually working on a 500 pt LatD army right now - mostly to use models I've had sitting around for a while - and looking at your fast eldar list makes me realize how slow my own list is! You could easily dart around my shambling force and whittle them away with all that fire, with even the lasblasters doing descently against my traitors & gibbering hordes ...

I don't know if it's the cheapest $$-wise to build, but that fast eldar list has some real potential, especially against non-MEQs. Luck with your tini army.

- Boss Salvage

Yeah, the Eldar army is fast, there...but that low a model count makes me very nervous. What if someone lands one or two lucky frag missiles on me or something? No chance to salvage the situation...but still, the zappy factor is high. What do other people think of that list?


And while I'm at it, here are some revisions:

Outpost Malos VIII Garrison -- A small and heavily fortified Imperial bunker on the stinking hive world of Malos VIII. These men are the elite of the local Adeptus Arbites, chosen from the force for actual military duty in the ork-infested hinterlands which supply the essential food supplies for the hive -- hence, some recon elements, tight discipline from years in the Arbites, shooting skills befitting their origin, and weapons equall useful for taking out Ork raiding parties or heavier Kans.

HQ (55)
Junior Officer (40) – Iron Discipline (5), Laspistol (-), CCW (-).
4 Guardsmen, one Heavy Bolter team, Sharpshooters (10),

TROOPS (327)

Infantry Platoon (227)
Junior Officer (40) – Iron Discipline (5), Laspistol (-), CCW (-).
4 Guardsmen, two with Flamers (12)
Squad Alpha: 10 Guardsmen, one with Missile Launcher, Sharpshooters (85)
Squad Alpha: 10 Guardsmen, one with Missile Launcher, Sharpshooters (85)

Grenadier Squad (100): 8 Grenadiers (80), 2 Plasma Gun (20)

Fast Attack (110)
Sentinel w/Autocannon (55)
Sentinel w/Autocannon (55)

Total: 500

And a totally out there idea: a Rogue Trader, not actively turned to Chaos but totally outside the official pale of the Imperium. Equipped with looted archaeotech and aided by human mercenaries from the Fringe Worlds, themselves using technology undreamt of by the Imperium. Kasan's force depends on the eternal verities of the privateer: short range, harsh discipline, and superior firepower. Uses the LatD list.

HQ

Alexsander Kasan, Rogue Trader Extraordinaire (80)
Chaos Lt. (45) with Bolt Pistol (-), Frag Grenades (1), Power Weapon (15), Furious Charge (15), Daemonic Strength (15).

2 Chaos Champions:
Hasan Lassivi: Champion (27) with Mark Undivided (1), Kai Gun (25).
Elliot Blackmoore: Champion (27) with Mark Undivided, Bolt Pistol (-), Frag Grenades, Power Fist (15), Spiky Bitz (10), Daemonic Aura (10).

TROOPS

Hasan’s Holy Hellraisers: 9 Traitors (72), one Plasma Gun (10), one Lascannon (20).

Blackmoore’s Bloodhounds: 9 Traitors (72) w/laspistols and assault weapons, one upgraded to Flamer, one upgraded to Heavy Stubber (10), one upgraded to Agitator with laspistol (-), Power Weapon (10), Spiky Bitz (10).

Kasan’s Collaborators: 5 Chaos Marines, 2 w/Melta Guns (20), 3 w/Bolt Pistols, CCW (-) (90)

Further thoughts? Or should I just give up on these out-there ideas and go buy some Marines?

-Adso

DO NOT give in to the unholy temptation that is power armor (imperial lackey or otherwise).

I personally like both Eldar armies, and the first guard list (i'm all about the fluff). the second guard army has the fluff, but i dont feel that the large chaos element fits in with it. THAT kind of force is a bit too powerful for a rogue trader, and would definitely be somewhere in the top 100 Inquisition's Most Wanted list.

At the 500 point level, you'll find that strength is in shear numbers.  Any opposing force will be hard pressed to deal with 7 scoring units with high body counts to their 2-5.  For that, look no further than the Imperial Guard.  The list I propose represents either a platoon on Patrol devided into two sections led bed by senior sergeants (Your JOs.)

Doctrines
Iron Discipline (Best 5 points you'll ever spend)
Close Order Drill (Because it's free, use it when it's tactically permissible)
Drop Troops (also free and will give you mobility in Gamma or higher missions)

Command Platoon "Platoon HQ"
-----------
Junior Officer "Lieutenant" with Laspistol and CCW, Iron Discipline
4x Guardsman with Meltaguns (Meltaguns can all stay here or be distributed amongst the command squads)
80pts

2x Infantry Platoons "Sections 1 & 2"
-----------
Junior Officer "Section Leader" with Lasgun or Laspistol and CCW, Iron Discipline
4x Guardsman with Lasguns or Laspistol and CCW (same as JO)
45 points
 
Squad 1 - Plasmagun & Heavy Bolter  80 points
Squad 2 - Plasmagun & Autocannon    85 points

210 points

55 models

To Buy:
2x Cadian Infantry $35
1x Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad $35
1x Cadian Heavy Weapons Team $13
4x Cadian Special Weapons Blisters $12

Total Cost - $166 (and you end up with one leftover guardsman)

Employment: At this points level, you have so many models that you can have one platoon lay down fire, while the other forsakes it's heavys and advances to the objective, have both lay down an impenetrable gunline, or have both either jump or advance onto target knowing that the plasma and lasguns lay down a pretty whithering hail of fire on their own. 

The command squad with the meltas is your throwaway suicide command squad for dealing with other folks tanks, dreads, or MCs.  It can also be used to supplement the assaulting force with mobile firepower (4x S8 shots) or it's leadership.  The platoon command squads are there to provide leadership first and foremost, and opportune lasgun fire, or if you go the laspistol and CCW route, counter-assault. 

The Downside:  Might not be fun to use against that opponent that's bringing less than 20 models to the fight.  It's a pretty quick game.  Also, you're starting off with 55 identical infantry models...but if you're going Guard, you'll have to do it at some point.  Still, that's 55 helmets, 55 fatigues, 55 pairs of boots and so on that you have to paint.

The Upshot: Super effective at this points level.  Plus you have a pretty solid core from which to build the rest of your guard force.  Heck, since you have most of the core company out of the way with this, the next 500 points could concievably be just toys like tanks, stormtroopers, hellhounds and the like.

Two things about the guard lists.

You need some anti-tank to deal with the odd wraithlord or predator you'll dun into at 500pts.  Missile launcher's are good in small games like this because they can kill a marine a little less than 50% of the time and knock out larger tanks than the autocannon.  I'd swap out at least one Heavy Bolter for a missile launcher at +5 pts it gives you a bit more versatility.

In small games like this with guard, I've found that a big platoon can be a useful firebase, but you need units that can corral the enemy into your line of fire.  If you can squeeze in the points, a hellhound is a nice touch.  It can be tough and a *female dog* to kill.

Hmmm. OK, how about this, since I'm narrowing in on Guard (though Eldar are a close second)
Carapace armor is a few wastedp points, but I'm inclined to model it. This represents a landing force on an isolated agri-colony, marching in to protect and discipline the locals -- I have a couple models painted up, I'm going for space-fascists -- Kommando Khaki armor, black jumpsuits, red linings. These are a proud bunch, with a flying banner, a crisp step, and a mission for which they are too small.

Eridani Combined Company Expeditionary Forces (500)

Count Mark Utrices, Iron Discipline, Bolt pistol, Ccwpn, CPC armor (68)
2 bodyguards, Medic, Standard Bearer (22)

Platoon Belisarius, Eridandi 8th Dragoons (293)
Duke L. Belisarius, commanding. Bolter, Iron discipline, CPC armor (51)
4 assistants, one manning heavy bolter (10)
Squad Ipsix: 10 troopers, missile launcher, sharpshooters. (85)
Squad Oretan: 10 troopers, missile launcher, sharpshooters (85)
Squad Novak: 6 Remnants, one with plasma gun, Vet. Sgt. Light infantry, Sharp. (72)

Dragoons Squad Vitbek: 8 Grenadiers, two with plasma guns. (100)
Vit-1: Chimera with 2 Heavy Bolters, Track Guards, Extra Armor (100)

Posted By BrotherAdso on 12/08/2006 12:06 PM
HQ

Alexsander Kasan, Rogue Trader Extraordinaire (80)
Chaos Lt. (45) with Bolt Pistol (-), Frag Grenades (1), Power Weapon (15), Furious Charge (15), Daemonic Strength (15).

2 Chaos Champions:
Hasan Lassivi: Champion (27) with Mark Undivided (1), Kai Gun (25).
Elliot Blackmoore: Champion (27) with Mark Undivided, Bolt Pistol (-), Frag Grenades, Power Fist (15), Spiky Bitz (10), Daemonic Aura (10).

TROOPS

Hasan’s Holy Hellraisers: 9 Traitors (72), one Plasma Gun (10), one Lascannon (20).

Blackmoore’s Bloodhounds: 9 Traitors (72) w/laspistols and assault weapons, one upgraded to Flamer, one upgraded to Heavy Stubber (10), one upgraded to Agitator with laspistol (-), Power Weapon (10), Spiky Bitz (10).

Kasan’s Collaborators: 5 Chaos Marines, 2 w/Melta Guns (20), 3 w/Bolt Pistols, CCW (-) (90)

LatD, w00t!  That said, this list is rather illegal, starting with the traitors, who when fielded as compulsory troops choices have to be at full strengh (15), can't take both flamer & heavy stubber, and agitators can only have 15 points worth of gear.  You've got some other points wrong too, I'll correct in the rewritten list that follows!

HQ

Arch-Heretic - Furious charge, power weapon, bolt pistol, frags, demonic speed = 92

AC - MoCU, kai gun = 72

AC - MoCU, powerfist = 62

Troops

15 Traitors - Lascannon, plasma gun = 150

15 Traitors - Heavy bolter, flamer = 133

Total = 509 points

Speed + furious charge is a winner on the Heretic, though I realize now that you might have been wanting to walk him in with the CSM squad, which I had to cut as it was way over 500 points.  In fact, after chopping and chopping away, you're left with 2 16-strong squads that can't infiltrate - the attached AC's cancel that ability - and the cruise missile heretic.  I like the original list you posted, but I guess traitor-based LatD isn't totally viable at 500 pts, with how expensive and limited 15 traitors are.  Stick with Eldar or Guard I guess, unless you're in it for the modeling and fun of LatD.

- Boss Salvage

Huh. I didn't see that...they really ought to put that with the troops entry instead of buried at the top. The flamer/stubber was my mistake.

I really like the idea of LaTD, or at least a Rogue Trader who's off on his own, though! Here's another try at repping such a thing:

HQ: Alexander Kazan ? Explorator (Inquisitor) Lord with power weapon, bolt pistol, Anti-Psyker Dice (Hexagrammic wards) (61)

Troops: The Longshots -- 6 Imperial Stormtroopers with hellguns and frag grenades, 1 w/meltagun. Veteran Sergeant Eriksson with bolt pistol, power weapon, power armor. (127)

Troops: Jericho Platoon -- 6 Imperial Stormtroopers with hellguns and frag grenades, 2 with plasma guns. Veteran Sergeant Hassan with auspex, bolter-plasma gun combiweapon. (127)

Troops: Salger?s Black Stripes Platoon
Salger Vall, Junior Officer w/chainsword, bolt pistol. (42)
4 Guardsmen w/chainswords, laspistols.
Odrick?s Squad ? 10 Guardsmen, 1 missile launcher team (75)
Regdan?s Squad ? 10 Guardsmen, 1 heavy bolter team (70)
TOTAL: 502

or...

Alexander Kasan?s Explorator Company
Veterans
Light Infantry
Hardened Fighters
Sharpshooters
Special Weapon Platoons

HQ: Alexander Kasan, Junior Officer with Carapace Armor, power weapon, bolt pistol (51)
Guardsmen w/chainsword, boltpistol

TROOPS:
Salger?s Black Stripes Platoon
Salger Vall, Junior Officer w/chainsword, bolt pistol. (42)
4 Guardsmen w/chainsword, boltpistol
Odrick?s Squad ? 10 Guardsmen, 1 missile launcher team, 1 grenade launcher (81)
Blinzet?s Squad ? 10 Guardsmen, 1 heavy bolter team, 1 grenade launcher (78)

Wei Xua?s Strikers Squad
APC Squad ? 10 Infantry (60). Vet Sgt Wei Xua w/ Carapace Armor, bolter, CC Weapon (8). Heavy Weapons team w/missile launcher, one plasma gun (25).
Sharpshooters (10)
Strikers Chimera ? Chimera w/multilaser, heavy bolter (85)

Can you come up with a better way to show this idea via the LaTD codex? Kasan could be using Hrud or Demiurg mercenaries if we want to include Mutants, etc.

-Adso