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Hello!

I need some help tweaking my Alpha Legion list, and I’m not sure which way to go…

(Note: Everything has the MoCU and Infiltrate)

HQ

1) Chaos Lord w/ Lightning Claws, Daemonic Strength, Demonic Aura, Daemonic Essence (is that what the +1 T gift is called?), frags, Furious Charge w/ 7 Man retinue, all with BP/CCW, 2 w/ plasma pistols, 1 AC w/ Power Fist

Elite

1) 8 Chosen Terminators
2 Reaper Autocannons, 1 Combiflamer, 2 Combimeltas, 3 combibolters, 3 Lightning Claws, 1 chainfist, 4 power weapons, tank hunters

Troops

1) 8 Chaos Marines
5 w/ BP/CCW, 2 meltaguns, 1 AC w/ power fist, frags

2) 10 Chaos Marines
 w/ 2 plasma guns, 8 bolters

3) 6 Chaos Marines
 1 Lascannon, 1 plasma gun, 4 bolters

4) 15 Cultists
 Assassins (Furious Charge/Infiltrate), meltabombs, Chaos Icon

5) 15 Cultists
 Assassins (Furious Charge/Infiltrate), meltabombs, Chaos Icon

Heavy

1) 8 Havocs
 4 Missile Launchers, 4 Bolters, tankhunters

2) 8 Havocs
 4 Heavy Bolters, 4 Bolters

Played my first game of 4th edition on Saturday and got beat (handily) by an Eldar force comprised of (from memory):

Farseer w/ guide and doom
Autarch on jetbike w/ mandiblasters, fusion gun, laser lance
10 Guardians w/ scatter laser and Warlock (conceal)
10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch w/ Bladestorm
6 Fire Dragons (in Falcon w/ Pulse, Scatter, Shuriken Cannon)
3 warwalkers, all w/ 2x scatter lasers)

5 Swooping Hawks w/ Skyleap (rubber banding all game long, never realyl killed a thing)
10 Banshees w/ exarch w/ mirror swords (in Waveserpent w/ twin linked star cannons)
Wraithlord w/ brightlance and missile launcher
4 Shining Spears w/ Exarch w/ star lance

In six turns I managed to kill the Wraithlord, the banshees, the guardians w/ warlock and 2 shining spears…

A LOT of my problems were due to my poor setup choices and way, way too tentative play with my infiltrators. After my opponent set up (bunched up in one corner, mostly out of sight behind some forests), I couldn’t see a way of getting my stuff into HTH without getting shot out of existence first…

I was intimidated by the well placed warwalker squad (when guided onto a doomed squad… ouch) and I never got the lord or the other HTH oriented squads into combat.

I didn’t have a scoring unit left after the end of turn 6.

Some things I do know:

* 8 terminators is too many, especially when deepstriking them. They didn’t show up until turn 3, and were eventually killed off by the shining spears and Autarch.

* 30 cultists seem great, but they really only exist to summon daemons, of which I currently have zero.

* Tanks hunters on the Heavy Bolter Havocs actually would have come in rather handy…

* I need to get some flamer weapons into this list.

What I could add in right now (i.e., its already painted):

2 Rhinos (options to add Havoc Launchers on both) ? A possible way to get the HTH squads *that* much closer to the enemy? (Of course, bailing out ASAP and leaving the death trap/coffin behind)
2 Dreadnoughts (1 w/ twin linked lascannon and missile launcher, 1 w/ 2 power fists, 1 combi bolter, 1 heavy flamer) Even with the potential of AV13, they seem like too much risk for not enough reward…
1 predator w/ autocannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons. As the only heavy vehicle threat, it will be gone rather quickly, I’d imagine…

Thinking of adding:

Infiltrating, Daemon Prince (w/ Daemonic Speed!)
12 Daemonettes
8 Bloodletters

Of course, what then to take out?

Any and all questions and comments are greatly appreciated!

Take out the lightning claws for one. Lightning claws are rather redundant on an IC with strength and furios charge.

I'd use 6 man squads, not 10 man for the Dual plasma

And the retinue for the lord, along with the bp/ccw marines aren't all that useful.

My Anti-Tank havoc squad is mixed-Autcannons and missile launchers.

Definitely too many terminators

And you need a leader for the cultists w/power weapon.

How are you getting anything, particularly your cultists, close enough to do anything useful, without getting them shot to pieces?

Especially against the new breed of Eldar (VERY mobile fire power, in large amounts)...

Actually, I don't use cultists at all typically

But it seemed like you wanted to use them, and since you mentioned wanting daemons...You have to keep the cultists.

I'm trying to use Cultists effectively mostly for:

1) Background reasons
2) Summoning Daemons - Daemonettes and Bloodletters, most likely...

I might just have to plan on using them effectively only for that, and not for anything else.

Hrm... Cultists suck and AL don't really need the Daemons (use BL or WB is you want daemons). Instead, look to smaller 6-8 man infiltrating las/plas or dual melta teams w/Pfist champs. An infiltrating lord with Speed, Furious Charge, Dark Blade, DStrength is an insane murderous thing. So are infiltrating, FC Chosen with dspeed and power weapons (:-O). For havocs, Tank Hunting Autocannons are effective. You can also throw some MLs for S9 into the mix. Obliterators can give you some more firepower for a reasonable price.

Play to your strengths- cheap infiltrating marines.

Posted By jmurph on 12/15/2006 6:58 AM
 So are infiltrating, FC Chosen with dspeed and power weapons (:-O).

And they're more expensive than they're really worth.  Granted, I have two squads of them modeled up, and I've used them occasionally...to much whining.  Took a tournament with that list, but ended up being tied in painting with a guy with an army that wasn't completely painted.

Lord and lt with infl/speed/fc is good.  Wasting points on a retinue isn't unless you're playing a really big game.

After some tweaking, here's what I'll try out next:

HQ:
  
1) Alpha Legion Lord @ 161 Pts
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Lightning Claws, Frag Grenades
Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Mutation, Daemonic Speed
Furious Charge and Infiltrate

Elite:

1) 6 Alpha Legion Chosen @ 334 Pts

5 Chosen Terminators
Lightning Claw (x1); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x3); Combi-bolter (x1); Combi-flamer (x1); Combi-melta (x1); Reaper autocannon (x2)
Tank Hunters
1 Chosen Aspiring Terminator Champion
Lightning Claw (x1); Combi-melta

Troops:

1) 10 Chaos Cultists @ 100 Pts
Frag Grenades, Melta-bombs
Mark of Chaos Undivided, Chaos Icon
Assassins: Furious Charge,Infiltrate

2) 10 Chaos Cultists @ 100 Pts
Frag Grenades, Melta-bombs
Mark of Chaos Undivided, Chaos Icon
Assassins: Furious Charge,Infiltrate

3) 12 Daemonettes @ 180 Pts
 
4) 12 Daemonettes @ 180 Pts

5) 7 Alpha Legion Marines @ 200 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Close combat weapon (x7); Frag Grenades; Flamer (x2)
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Furious Charge, Infiltrate
1 Aspiring Champion
Bolt Pistol (x1); Powerfist (x1)

6) 8 Alpha Legion Marines @ 148 Pts
Bolters; Plasma Gun (x2)
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Infiltrate

Heavy Support:

1) 8 Alpha Legion Havocs @ 204 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x4)
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Infiltrate, Tank Hunters

2) 8 Alpha Legion Havocs @ 232 Pts
Missile Launcher (x4)
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Infiltrate, Tank Hunters

Army Cost: 1847

Eventually I'll be able to swap out some Daemonettes for Bloodletters, and maybe the Chosen Terminators for some Raptors, for variety's sake...

Hopefully, this will allow me to be a bit more effective than the last time out!

Looks fairly decent. I'm not sold on Tank Hunters for the HB Havoks. Not sure what you could do with the extra points though.

My Tank hunting Havok squad is 2 AC's, 2 ML. Can handle almost any threat in the game easily.

Well, you're right in that it is "only" 24 points, and I'm not sure where else I'd spend them in this list.

Plus, in my last game vs. Eldar, I didn't have the HB Havocs take Tank Hunters, and then, due to their placement, after about turn 3 or 4, they had nothing left to shoot at.

With Tank Hunters, they could have at least threatened my opponent's Falcon and Wave Serpent.

Granted, it isn't an optimal use of them, but better than having them do nothing at all after the "soft" targets have disappeared...

Cultists are very useful when used correctly.  And in a mission with Infiltrate it shouldn't be that hard to get them into combat.  My 1850 and 2000 point AL lists include 60 Cultists, 2x8 Bloodletters, a flying lieutenant, and Raptors (not really cost effective).  The point of the fast moving stuff and the Demons is to leapfrog the Cultists.   So you should have one turn when a combination of Demons and flying marines hits and then the next turn the Cultists should hit without ever having been in rapid fire range.

The Cultists are very useful in combat.  They can do a significant amount of damage on the charge.  They also add lots of numbers which can make even leadership 10 units break, which is fun combined with Raptors.  And they tie can be used to tie up things I don't want in base to base with my Lord or Bloodletters.  

I think the key to taking Cultists is taking a LOT of Cultists.  Cheap but useful bodies combined with elite marines and demons has worked very well for me.

Oh yeah, and infiltrating, tank hunting, autocannon havocs are one of the best units you can get.  Heavy Bolters are nice, but the extra 12" of range combined with infiltrate makes them so much more useful. 

Your Lord is too cheap to make use of Paired Lightning Claws. PLC are overpriced based on their raw combat effectiveness alone, but are useful because a) they don't count against your daemonic gifts limit (thus letting make bigger and scarier lords), b) they can be Master Crafted (unlike a Dark Blade) which is effectively an extra attack, c) they provide the only way to surpass a 2+ on wound rolls (3+ rerolled is better than 2+, and 2+ rerolled is obviously better still). Your listed lord can only get to 3+ rerolled to wound on MEqs on the charge, doesn't have Master Crafting, and isn't pushing your gear limits, so he really shouldn't have PLC.

Otherwise, I honestly don't think Chaos termies are worth their points. Not that they're bad per se, just that the same points in infiltrating CSM squads with plasma will be more effective overall. But then again, when I'm playing CSM with that much infiltration, I have a hard time losing, so it may not matter so much.

Posted By Lowinor on 12/22/2006 12:00 PM
Your Lord is too cheap to make use of Paired Lightning Claws. PLC are overpriced based on their raw combat effectiveness alone, but are useful because a) they don't count against your daemonic gifts limit (thus letting make bigger and scarier lords), b) they can be Master Crafted (unlike a Dark Blade) which is effectively an extra attack, c) they provide the only way to surpass a 2+ on wound rolls (3+ rerolled is better than 2+, and 2+ rerolled is obviously better still). Your listed lord can only get to 3+ rerolled to wound on MEqs on the charge, doesn't have Master Crafting, and isn't pushing your gear limits, so he really shouldn't have PLC.

Otherwise, I honestly don't think Chaos termies are worth their points. Not that they're bad per se, just that the same points in infiltrating CSM squads with plasma will be more effective overall. But then again, when I'm playing CSM with that much infiltration, I have a hard time losing, so it may not matter so much.

Interesting points!

I am trying to avoid a Daemon Prince, so there is a limit on what gifts I can give the lord.

Also, as noted earlier, I'm tring to play with what I've got painted now.

Not saying I won't add on later though!

So, a couple of questions for you:

1) HAve you had a chance to play against the "new Eldar" yet, and if so, how did you do?

2) Any chance you can post a sample of your mega-infiltrating hard time losing with list? It might be helpful to see...

Thanks!

Chaos has to have a Daemon prince...It's part of the flavor of Chaos

I took my list against the new Eldar. Wasn't a very good list I was playing against, but I slaughtered him. He whined about me always bringing a tournament list, but my list is rather soft for a real tournament list

I just have trouble against bugs personally with mine...Isn't very mobile.

Lord w/darkblade, bp, resilience, strength, aura, mutation, spikey bits, frags, mocu, infl, fc
Lt w/PW, bp, resilience, strength, aura, frags, MoCU, Inf, FC

2 Oblits

3x8 man CSM squads (Las/Plas, AC w/PF, Inf, MoCU)

6 man Raptor (Plasma pistol, AC w/strength, PW. MoCU, Infl, FC)

Defiler (IF)

8 man Havok (4 HB, Infl)

8 man Havok (2 ML, 2 AC, Infl, TH)

Posted By Alpharius on 12/23/2006 6:37 AM

So, a couple of questions for you:

1) HAve you had a chance to play against the "new Eldar" yet, and if so, how did you do?

2) Any chance you can post a sample of your mega-infiltrating hard time losing with list? It might be helpful to see...

Thanks!

It has been a while since I've played infiltration (and I haven't played against new Eldar or even a good player fielding old mech Eldar -- my last routine mech Eldar player sent his Falcons to kill my tank hunting autocannon havoc squad.  In 4+ cover.), but basically, at 1500:

Lord, lots of toys, infiltrating, flight
Bloodthirster*
3x 6 man infiltrating MoCU las/plas CSM squads (insert champion with chains in one squad)
1x 8 man infiltrating tank hunting 4x Autocannon Havoc squad
1x 8 man infiltrating MoCU 4x Heavy Bolter Havoc squad
Fill remaining points with daemons (Daemonettes or Bloodletters)

Swap the havoc squads for Missile Launchers as desired, or even double up on TH Autocannons if you expect a lot of Eldar.

*This is a Black Legion list as opposed to Alpha Legion.

Very simple list, pretty tough, too.  You want to set your troops up not necessarily close together, but with lots of crossfire between them.  Use the lord/thirster/daemons as forward assault or counter-charge as needed.   The Lord is the only unit that doesn't start on the board in Escalation.