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Specifically in a godzilla list.  I see alot of people use raveners in godzilla lists, but they cost the same as two stealers.  The stealers have the same toughness, 2 more attacks, a better save, but a smaller assault move.

 

Other than a small objective grabbing unit, why would you take Raveners over Stealers in a Godzilla list?  The Stealers would be better at counter-assault, and are just as fast as a Ravener if you're grabbing objectives, but they are more durable.

An extra 6" on the assault can make all the difference. Raveners *never* get rapid-fired. 6" move + d6" fleet + 12" assault.

Raveners' save does suck. That's why they're good in Zilla, where you can hide them behind the MC wall until you send them off into the enemy ranks. Otherwise you'd better hope for good terrain.

Many people run multiple units of a single ravener. That's the same cost as 2 stealers, but you're not allowed to run units of 2 stealers, you have to take 6. If a unit of say, 5 terminators with 2 Assault Cannons has to choose a target, they would rather shoot a unit of 6 stealers (probably wiping them out). If they have to shoot single Ravener units, then they can only kill one ravener per turn.

Think of it this way: if you could split every unit of 6 Genestealers into 3 units of 2, each of which had to be targeted individually, wouldn't you?

I am also kind of lost as to what 3 single raveners running around is supposed to accomplish. I would think even charging guard with a single ravener would result in a tyranid loss(I am assuming a combat win casualty wise, but a dead ravener in return)....Am i missing something????

What are these raveners armed with? The two sets of talons for 6 attacks on the charge? I figure that even against guard this would net only 4 kills on average......

Most Raveners are talons/rending claws. I can't think of a use for dual-talon ones.

You charge the end of a strung-out unit, so you clear your kill zone (Raveners have higher Initiative than most things). No one can hit back, so you can then pile in and presto: you've locked up a shooty unit on their shooting turn! Then you kill a few more, and the Ravener probably dies afterwards. So you can shoot the remnants with your dakkafex. Bonus points if your opponent puts his hidden Fist at the end of his unit, so you can wipe it out when you clear the kill zone.

It's much harder to do that with a unit of stealers, as you will likely have to engage most of the enemy unit. So odds are there will be something left that can hit back, unless you get lucky on the rending.

Also, there's nothing to say that you can't use Raveners like death-cult assassins: move them up together and charge the same target unit with the 3 independent Raveners. They get shot at independently (good) but they can assault the same target unit (good). And independent Raveners will never be <50% unit strength in the odd cireumstance that the target unit wins combat.

Sure, it's better to have 3 units of 6 raveners, but that costs 6 times as much. And that's a lot more points lost if a bunch of bolters and stormbolters come to bear on them.

I like 'monat' Raveners, but only in pairs or triplets. And setting up the charge position with move + fleet is key.

You know, one of the hardest to beat 'Zilla lists I faced made scary use of 'Stealers.

It was something like the following:

Shooty tyrant w/couple of guard (VC & BS) w/ scream

Shooty flyrant w/2x tlDev. w/scream

2 x dakkafexes

2 x shooty fexes (VC & BS)

3 x zoanthrope (2 x blast & scream, 1 x synapse & scream)

5 x 6 stealers (EC)

1 x 8 stealers (EC)

It really wasn't any fun trying to decide what to shoot at since there were just so many darn targets.

This is a pretty rough list, but it is pretty close to accurate. Tough one to play against. Great CC ability, strong shooting, and lots of scream.

Sal.

Posted By Poisonrogue on 12/22/2006 7:23 AM

I am also kind of lost as to what 3 single raveners running around is supposed to accomplish. I would think even charging guard with a single ravener would result in a tyranid loss(I am assuming a combat win casualty wise, but a dead ravener in return)....Am i missing something????

What are these raveners armed with? The two sets of talons for 6 attacks on the charge? I figure that even against guard this would net only 4 kills on average......

Raveners should always be armed with Scything Talons and Rending Claws.

Single Raveners capture objectives. While most of a Godzilla army benefits from staying roughly together, the lone Raveners can go off on their own at the end of the game to capture table quarters while staying out of LOS.

You can also throw all Raveners into the same combat if need be.

As for the effectiveness of single Ravener units in combat, they are certainly very vulnerable if you send them into combat on their own. That's why you don't!

The thing about Raveners (over Genestealers) is that if you are keeping them in a reserve position hiding behind a Monstrous creature and some part of your army gets charged, you can safely assume that the Ravener will be able to hop into that combat to help out; even a busted fleet roll isn't going to stop 'em.

Some players also prefer to use two squads of one Ravener and one squad of 4 Raveners in order to have a couple of objective grabbers along with a unit with some real CC punch to it.

 

Posted By Saldiven on 12/22/2006 9:14 AM

3 x zoanthrope (2 x blast & scream, 1 x synapse & scream)

Am I missing something?  I didn't know that 3rd type was legal?  I thought it was blast + 1 more power, thats it. 

Fast Attack slots are too precious in a nid army to be 'wasted' on single Raveners. They are too good to be limited to so few models. They are also shared with the rather good winged warriors too.

Winged warriors...good?!?!?!?
You have got to be kidding.

Hey Skyth,

Winged warriors...good?!?!?!?
You have got to be kidding.

I've been on Dakka for quite a while now and I know this is popular opinion.  But also I just read the esteemed Yakface saying:

Some players also prefer to use two squads of one Ravener and one squad of 4 Raveners in order to have a couple of objective grabbers along with a unit with some real CC punch to it.

This wanting a squad of 4 Raveners led me to do some calculus...

4 Raveners with Scytals and Claws: 160 points

4 Winged warriors with Scytals, Claws, AG (WS+1), AG (I+1): 172 points

The Warriors have Jumppack in stead of Cavalry rules (which is sometimes better, sometimes worse); they have one attack less per warrior but they do gain Synapse (which is good because it prevents them, and the Raveners running allong, being autokilled).

The two units do not vary enough IMHO to call one amongst the worst and the other one amongst the best choices in the book - whatever popular oppinion might say.  

Whenever you contemplate a unit of 4 Raveners; you might - I'd say - consider the use of 4 Winged Warriors.

Cilithan out...

 

Agreed, Cilithan

I think the winged warriors also give you a bit better anti-tank with the venom cannon and barbed strangler mix

Posted By Cilithan on 12/30/2006 12:23 AM

This wanting a squad of 4 Raveners led me to do some calculus...

4 Raveners with Scytals and Claws: 160 points

4 Winged warriors with Scytals, Claws, AG (WS+1), AG (I+1): 172 points

The Warriors have Jumppack in stead of Cavalry rules (which is sometimes better, sometimes worse); they have one attack less per warrior but they do gain Synapse (which is good because it prevents them, and the Raveners running allong, being autokilled).

The two units do not vary enough IMHO to call one amongst the worst and the other one amongst the best choices in the book - whatever popular oppinion might say.  

Whenever you contemplate a unit of 4 Raveners; you might - I'd say - consider the use of 4 Winged Warriors.

Cilithan out...

 

Raveners are 40 points with RC/ST and Winged Warriors (as you point out) are only 43 points with the equivilant upgrades.

Winged Warriors have Synapse and move as Jump Infantry while Raveners have an extra Attack and move as beasts.

However, the point of taking a unit of 4 Raveners is for a very quick unit that can do some lethal damage in CC. In that role, the extra Rending Attack per model is actually vitallly important. Rending attacks benefit most from more dice being rolled as it means more chances to roll the magic '6'.

Also, the 'Beast' movement rule is massively superior to the Jump Infantry movement rules for a couple of reasons.

First, neither unit is going to be shooting, so the fact that the Raveners can fleet every turn (along with their 12" charge range)  means they will move much further in nearly all situations. Better yet, if the Raveners are stuck with traversing the entire board (say, because they start off the board in Escalation) they have the ability to Deep Strike in most of these cases.

Although Deep Striking right next to the enemy is foolish, with their 19-24" charge range Raveners can easily be dropped behind a piece of terrain or near a Synapse unit locked in combat already (which then blocks LOS for them) allowing them to charge safely in the following turn.

Finally, winged warriors take dangerous terrain tests when landing in terrain, something Raveners do not do. Since both units are fragile, the ability to safely end their turn in terrain is highly beneficial.

All in all, the Raveners are much better suited for the role of a quick counter-assualt unit than the winged Warriors.

Hey Yakface,

I didn't say the Raveners aren't better, I did say the difference is not all that great to be calling the Warriors suck.

Some points...

The extra Rending attack is invaluable? Of course you are right that more attacks is better. But is it crucially better? 4 Raveners that charge: 20 attacks, I5, WS5: 4 Warriors that charge: 16 attacks, I5, WS5. Assuming (as allways) they need to hit MEq's:

Raveners: 13.3 hits, of which 3.3 are Rending, 5 non rending wounds, 1.67 more failed saves: Statistically 5 Dead Meq's at I5, which is a crippled tac squad at any level.

Warriors: 10.67 hits, of which 2.67 are Rending, 4 non rending wounds, 1.3 more failed saves: Statistically 4 Dead MEq's at I5, which doesn't make an 8 Marine squad below scoring, but will win you the combat.

Of course, both the Raveners and the Warriors are going to win said combat, the return cassualties will be marginal, but the powerfist in the Tac Squad will autokill the Raveners (if not in Synapse range, which is not unlikely) and only wound Warriors once.

The movement? I dont think Cavalry rules are a great deal better then Jumppack rules. There are times when a Ravener will only move 7, 8 or 9 inches which might not be enough to secure that crucial objective. Last turn objective grabbing is another key role these units will play. In that respect I feel an assured 12'' movement is preferable.  Also, the Warriors can fly over difficult or impassable terain where Raveners have to move through or around.

I agree of course that Raveners are better in the role of quick counter assault. I do however feel the Warriors would bring other aspects to the table: Synapse (not that futile in a Godzilla list), a 12'' uninhibited move and versatility (other than the Raveners you can give them a Str.+1, a VC for ranged pod shots or whatever you want).

My only point was, that calling Raveners be all end all, and the Flying Warriors total suck-***  would be somewhat exagerated.

Greetings, Cilithan

  

 

You can give Flesh Hooks to Warriors as well, while Ravs can't get them. 16 Rending attacks is much better than the zero you get when your Raveners get killed at Initiative 10...

Hmmm...maybe I'll have to give these Winged Warriors a try!