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The Leviathan wins for me because a) 3 hunter killer missiles is serious biz b) might of heroes takes him up to T9 4++ w14 which is a top-tier defensive profile c) assuming you have a watchmaster nearby, charging him is suicide for a lot of units.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/22 13:43:49
Captain Garius wrote: Not sure if I ever actually gave an update on me trying the Melta Leviathan. I absolutely destroyed my opponent, but the Leviathan didn't do a damned thing. I ended up going against Thousand Sons. He ran Magnus, 10 man Termie squad, 3 Rubric Marine Squads, Ahriman, and the rest sorcerers/exalted.
Turn 1 I baited him into charging my 5 Intercessor 4 Aggressor 1 Inceptor squad with Magnus. I did 9 wounds to Magnus in Overwatch with the Aggressors and a Watch Captain. He killed all the Intercessors and I think 1 of the Aggressors in combat, I just fell back and finished him off on mu turn 1. From there it was mostly cleanup. Kill teams kept moving up and getting rid of Rubrics (2 units of 5 Auto Bolt Rifles, 1 Inceptor, 1 Aggressor) and on turn 2 I dropped in the 10 SB Vets, 10 Hellblasters, Jump Captain, Leviathan, and 10 Hellblasters. Hellblasters killed his unit of Termies, Vets finished off the last of his characters, and the Leviathan killed... 4 Rubrics? His turn 3 he conceded because all he had left was Ahriman and like 2 Rubrics.
I am actually thinking about switching out and just trying 2 Venerable Dreads or 2 Mortis Dreads instead.
what would you switch out for the vens or Mortis ? the levi ?
I am looking at trying to add in a second Battalion with it. So what I am toying with right now is either 2 Chaplain Dreads with Twin Las and a Fist, or 1 of those, with a Contemptor with Twin Las. It changes the list around though:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
I don't disagree that the Leviathan is the more powerful of the two. It should be - it costs more and for DW is harder to unlock cheaply without taking a mostly useless heavy bolter quad gun for an army that has no problem with access to that type of anti-infantry firepower. My hope is that the combined benefits of a 5++ to several squads, the 100 points saved, the easier unlock, and the lower threat profile will help make it effective.
Also have to prepare for the inevitable Leviathan point increase - it's the best Dreadnought by far for ever marine force that can take it, so I'm totally expecting it'll get the Fire Raptor treatment in CA
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
I don't disagree that the Leviathan is the more powerful of the two. It should be - it costs more and for DW is harder to unlock cheaply without taking a mostly useless heavy bolter quad gun for an army that has no problem with access to that type of anti-infantry firepower. My hope is that the combined benefits of a 5++ to several squads, the 100 points saved, the easier unlock, and the lower threat profile will help make it effective.
Also have to prepare for the inevitable Leviathan point increase - it's the best Dreadnought by far for ever marine force that can take it, so I'm totally expecting it'll get the Fire Raptor treatment in CA
Ye i understand what you mean.
Thats what im afraid of too...especially since its ForgeWorld...Thats why im hesitant to buy ANYTHING big before CA drops...
Thats what im afraid of too...especially since its ForgeWorld...Thats why im hesitant to buy ANYTHING big before CA drops...
I have more than enough stuff to work on, personally. It's a good time for me to have a backlog as it encourages me to finally get through it all, proxy a few models here and there to see if I want to add them to my collection, and overall just prepare for the eventual double wave of inevitable new Primaris stuff in the new year, and adding in new units made viable from CA.
I personally want to add in some more Repulsors, a Corvus, or a Land Raider...just need CA to delivery
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/22 19:26:01
Ye I totally get what you mean...I can finally paint my existing Necron army...at least the most basic units I use...troops...destroyers etc.
Build up the Deathwatch army to where I can add stuff afterwards...maybe paint up my Nids...stuff like that
Ye I like the repulsor and Corvus model too but 300points is just too much for them so Ill pass on them for now...I hope CA doesnt kill the Leviathan...it just has that something special to me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/22 19:09:04
You don't HAVE to take that quad heavy bolter mount. You could say use Hellblasters who also teleport in. More points, but teleporting Hellblasters are also fairly popular.
All that said, my enthusiasm for the Leviathan did drop markedly once Knights became so ubiquitous. Now, everyone can handle a Knight and if you can drop a Knight you can drop a Leviathan even easier. I'll be sad if it goes up in points, then you really might as well take a Knight instead.
Thats why I hate this meta so much...Its my personal observation but I think Knights changed the meta the most...where as at first it wasnt that smart to pump so much points into one single model and IF you did it you literally had to build around it...know you just take the one model that has enough fire power to destroy entite armies plus it works pretty much independently from the rest of the army...its still „cheap“ enough to take other strong stuff that gets you points (mainly Guard)...
I said it in a necron forum already...the meta changed to AM + anything thats strong on its own (BA Captains, Dawneagles, Knights etc.) and Ynnari...
EDIT: Thats why I also dont want to take a Knight in my list although it would fit just fine...I just hate them...they are broken...they have only one weaknes...other knights and other AM Soup lists...thats not fun for your opponent and maybe only once fun for yourself...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/22 20:47:54
Yup, I was never big on the superheavies existing, cause I felt like they just completely overshadowed regular tanks. If someone needs to be prepped for 30 wounds of T8, they can take on your dreads/rhinos without breaking a sweat. And I actually liked having small vehicles in my lists. But, oh well, GW went big.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Thats why I hate this meta so much...Its my personal observation but I think Knights changed the meta the most...where as at first it wasnt that smart to pump so much points into one single model and IF you did it you literally had to build around it...know you just take the one model that has enough fire power to destroy entite armies plus it works pretty much independently from the rest of the army...its still „cheap“ enough to take other strong stuff that gets you points (mainly Guard)...
I said it in a necron forum already...the meta changed to AM + anything thats strong on its own (BA Captains, Dawneagles, Knights etc.) and Ynnari...
EDIT: Thats why I also dont want to take a Knight in my list although it would fit just fine...I just hate them...they are broken...they have only one weaknes...other knights and other AM Soup lists...thats not fun for your opponent and maybe only once fun for yourself...
It's not just that they changed the meta - every codex did, in some way. It's that, because of the release schedule, it made a semi-permanent change that has cemented the competitive meta for 5 months. That's the longest period of stability in 8th edition thus far.
But these competitive lists DO build around the Knight. One Knight in particular - the Castellan. The CP generation of Guard, along with their previous regeneration ability using Kurov's and Grand Strategist (before the FAQ) was all about boosting the Castellan and giving it unending CP to do its job. It was also all about boosting the smash captains, too. Can't fund both, now.
Since the FAQ I've seen a lot of really interesting builds from armies that long fell off the competitive landscape, though. And they're playing high! I think Knights and Guard infantry are the outliers that will be addressed in CA, but even then we're seeing it shift a bit with each new tournie thanks to the FAQ. Once Orks come in and we see if they can drown the Castellan in a green tide, the meta may shift.
In any case, DW was never super viable anyway on account of being marines plus. I've not had much issue being competitive locally, but I think the thing that helps is basically having the closest thing to a Knight in the form of a Dreadnought that spits out a bazillion shots. I personally would love to be able to split those points out on other, smaller vehicles and units - but they aren't nearly as effective.
Are Ravenwing Talons a thing?
I have 3 list ideas with either DW plus Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
I really have to say i LOVE DW.
I like their design plus all the stuff I can do with allies (without being THAT GUY) it amazes me...its like a new world opens when you only play necrons and nids (or just xenos)
Think I'm opening another can of worms here as it's possibly more suited to YMDC.
With most recent FaQ is it still possible to use beacon angelis to relocate another squad out of the deployment zone? On top of this as far as I can see you can still advance afterwards (apologies if I'm making a rookie error) is this correct?
My reasoning being it may just about get fragcanons in strength 9 range turn 1 when used with a jump pack captain to bounce them up the field.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/23 23:03:31
ragnorack1 wrote: Think I'm opening another can of worms here as it's possibly more suited to YMDC.
With most recent FaQ is it still possible to use beacon angelis to relocate another squad out of the deployment zone? On top of this as far as I can see you can still advance afterwards (apologies if I'm making a rookie error) is this correct?
My reasoning being it may just about get fragcanons in strength 9 range turn 1 when used with a jump pack captain to bounce them up the field.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Nice, that's good to know. Does that go for advancing too? As far as I can remember you can't after deep striking but can't see anything in the wording for the beacon that prevents it.
Not crszy powerful as they'll be sitting ducks if you don't have enough other threats or terrain but nice to be able to put more pressure on turn 1.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Nice, that's good to know. Does that go for advancing too? As far as I can remember you can't after deep striking but can't see anything in the wording for the beacon that prevents it.
Not crszy powerful as they'll be sitting ducks if you don't have enough other threats or terrain but nice to be able to put more pressure on turn 1.
Unfortunately that is the case. Beacon happens at end of movement phase, so no advancing. You would likely be advancing the jump captain anyway, 12+3.5+ deploy forward within 6" of him gets you a unit 21" up the board. Aggressors range 18" means you're guaranteed to be able to choose the chaff unit(s) you want dead.
I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
Any ideas?
You hit the nail on the head. Build a smash cap, give him a lib as backup, profit. Might be best to ask in the BA thread (don't want to derail by going into detail on a different army).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/28 00:41:27
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
Any ideas?
Affirmative the BA element as assault units. You may like the Slamgunius Captains to deal with high toughness targets, a Priest on jumppack to give +1S, and a Librarian or Librarian Dread to provide psychic buff. Then a squad of Death Company, mainly for dealing with "relative low toughness" but high model count units.
For the shooting element from Deathwatch, Frag Cannon, Aggressors can do fire support at close range, while don't overlook the humble stormbolter if you are in 12", when the high RoF paired with SIA it can be deadly. The VenDread is better equip with Twin Las and ML for long range AT.
I am also trying a mixed squad with long range fire support: 6 Stalker boltgun veterans, some of them also take SS, 1 Missile Launcher and/or 1 Heavy Bolter Veteran, Terminator (CML optional depends on points), Vanguard with cheap loadout. Sit at the back and shoot. Make good use of a lot of Stratagem and the right selection of SIA, it can be serious threat. For example, if going against IK, you potentially dish out 2D3 MW plus 3 shots wounding of 3s dmgD6 and 10 shots wounding on 5s all at AP-2 which is the best AP value against IK. If against Flyrant, or Magnus or Morty, you might be able to dealt 3D3 mortal wounds, plus 2 Krak missile shots and 10 shots wounding on 2s.
Its not very conpetitive and espacially still not optimized.
The Deathwatch detachment is going to support the BA melee detachment.
With the DW relic Im going to push the aggressors up the board...The FragCannons will have to walk/advance...Im not sure what to do with the third vets squad...at first they were a hellblaster KT but i dropped them for another VenDread.
Scouts for obj. holding
the Captain and the Vets are my heavy melee hitters...Now I dont know if 10 of them are too much? The 5 with chianswords are just there as meat shields and to not waste the TH on chaff/low armour...If everythings alright im still lacking 12points ...
Any help is appreciated!
EDIT: Im intentionally not using any FW stuff or Knights before CA drops!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/28 15:47:25
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Seems to really want to make use of those hammers against the Knights I guess? +1 to wound and rerolling 1's would help I guess. Vanguard would get in the thick of it a lot quicker though.
How are these Terminators getting into melee?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seems to really want to make use of those hammers against the Knights I guess? +1 to wound and rerolling 1's would help I guess. Vanguard would get in the thick of it a lot quicker though.
How are these Terminators getting into melee?
Dunno, guessing he's using teleportarium/beacon to hide them in ruins near the Knight after making a hole with the other stuff T1. But it looks like he got knocked out by a Ravager/Raider DE list in round 5. Still currently ranked 28th out of 172. Waiting for the next game to update to see the final standings.
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Sounds like Xiphons contributed a lot, could the Deathwatch army remain competitive without the aid of FW units?
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Sounds like Xiphons contributed a lot, could the Deathwatch army remain competitive without the aid of FW units?
I mean in general without FW I'd say no, though I feel like the non FWAT in his list is covered as best as it can be with the 10 hellblasters + TH terminators/smash captain. But outside of a few relatively small competitive metas, FW is an organic part of any given faction's arsenal so it's kind of like asking, "can X army remain competitive missing Y number of its codex entries."
Looks like he got wrecked by Ynnari/Harlequins in round 6. Still final rank 28 out of 172 ain't bad for nearly mono-DW with no CP battery. Mad props to that dude.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/29 01:59:55
