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Hey all

Anybody used Kroot Mercenaries before? I recently added some to my orks Deathskullz. Turns out they provided quite a bit of fire power, and weren't lacking in CC at all.

The highlight of the game was when my Shaper Council led by my Warboss charged a squad of marines......it wasn't pretty

Anyways, any thoughts on how to supplement your force with them?

Anybody play a pure Kroot Mercenary list?

Thanks

I use mercenaries in to boost my Deathskull and Iron Warriors lists. They've been excellent in both. I'm slowly building a pure Kroot army, though it'll be awhile till its done as I only have about 50 Kroot now.
The table my friends and I game on always has 1 or 2 pieces of forested terain near the middle of the board. They hide and fire on anything in range, drawing fire from other units and counter charge when the rest of my army is close.
I've tried the council, but find its a bit pricey for a mercenary unit of so few bodies. The best setup IMO is 1 or 2 carnivore units 20 strong with a shaper carrying an eviserator. Include a maxed unit of hounds with 40 models, fleet and a tooled shaper and you have a very powerful, resilient unit that can potentially charge in the first turn and with the eviscerator smash anything it hits, to make it extra mean attach a master shaper with eviscerator to the unit. My foot Deathskulls especially like their mercenary comrades.

what do you think about Snipers, mounted and unmounted?

Unmounted snipers seem like a big point waste, what sniper needs a 12 inch charge? The regular snipers are excellent. I've only used them a few times but 101 pts for a unit of 10 snipers (one a shaper) that get a 4+ cover in woods/jungle is a bargain for any army that faces tough creatures often. They're a lot better than loota snipers which my Deathskulls previously used. My only heavy slots used in my Ork army are a looted bassie and russ so theres always room for snipers. Used in tandem with 2 or 3 other mercenary units they're great because your foe will rarely have the convenience of solely killing them with 20-60 other kroot lurking about. I always try to keep them i cover though, cause they're quick points for your opponent otherwise. I give all my troops kustom force fields and with the kroot in woods it makes my army surprisingly tough which leaves most players who face it for the first time dumb founded.

Whoops, that was supposed to be mounted snipers seem like a waste.

Yes, well, i face tyranids a lot, and usually on a larger board than 4x4, so i thought mounted ones could be good since they can cover fast ground and still snipe.

And my heavy slots are taken up, usually (land raider, basilisk, demolisher in larger point games)

I'm facing nids this weekend, so we'll see if regular snipers shoot their worth

Well, I've only played against nids 3 or 4 times and always play on a 4x8 table. The problem I have with mounted kroot is that it merges two concepts that don't match well cavalry and snipers and charges 18 pts per model more than double a foot kroot.

They can't move much more than foot kroot getting a fleet move and a 12 inch charge. Neither should be used unless required as you're giving up a turn of shooting since the rifles are heavy 1. They shouldn't get into combat since they can't shoot and they don't get the +1 attack from their rifles like regular kroot. If you look in the kroot special rules at the begining of the rules all kroot count forest/jungle as regular terrain.

The concept is really cool but seriously flawed. You're paying 10 pts more per model than foot snipers for slightly better mobility and the scout rule, both which hamper their use of their rifles. If you can spare the slot I'd use the foot snipers.

I'm not big on raiders myself as thats a lot of pts in one unit which tries to be a jack ofall trades without being too effective. As a pure transport you can't fire weapons when its moved full. As a gunship it only has 2 anti-armour weapons and 1 defencive weapon and can only fire them all when stationary. As tough as it is a dozen nids with rending claws will eat it for breakfast. Anyway if you can try the foot snipers and let us know how it goes.

As you've seen, Kroot mercs are great for supplementing other armies and covering some of their deficiencies. Think Alpha Legion and KMA - pretty tasty.

A Kroot Mercenary army on its own is a hit or miss army - you'll win big or you'll get wiped off the board. Some of this is mission dependent, but mainly if you have an opponent who is familiar with how to defeat a first turn charge, a KMA will have a hard time.

Also, mechanized armies, skimmer-heavy armies, and highly mobile armies (think bikes and speeders) will outmaneuver your slower forces and shoot you to bits. Although KMA has access to fast-moving troops (Vultures, Kroot hounds, Hunters) you pay a premium for them and have to take them in large numbers to make them effective. Combine that with the explosive close combat results of Kroot versus vehicles (read: Evicerators) and you're looking at very painful results. A smart opponent will sacrafice a 58 point Rhino to take out a squad of 20 Kroot - whether he's able to tank shock your mediocre Ld 8 or allow you to destroy it in Assault and hope for a penetrating result.

A smart player will also force your squads to take as many Ld tests as possible by shooting or 'shocking. The Ld 8 can really hurt the poor mercs - especially with the large units sizes. And if you're running a minimum-sized unit, it hurts more because you're losing the points spent on a Shaper since the most points-efficient Carnivore unit is one at max size (a disclaimer to this points-efficient Carnivore unit size would be the use of smaller squads as counter-infiltration units that are put out in the deployment phase to ensure an opponent will not be able to outmaneuver you in the Infiltration deployment phase).

By the way, your most points-efficient configuration for a Kroot hound pack is a Shaper, 9 Carnivores, and 20 hounds + all the trimmings. The extra Carnivores should not be shooting (and therefore eliminating your Fleet move) and don't do anything to the assault phase the hounds don't do better.

Its true that the best way to use Kroot is as a mercenary contingent. Of course they would have trouble in the situations you mention, but most armies have an achille's heel and some of the most interesting have severe ones.

I wouldn't bring them to a tourney, but I've never brought any army to one in 10+ yrs and don't intend to any time soon. Taking a an adaptation help to cover some weaknesses. The +1 leadership, +1 toughness and 4+ to hit any with a template weapon are all good depending on what foes you habitually face.

There are a few armies that play like Kroot taking the all or nothing approach to victory. Some may find it distasteful, but there are plenty of armies that don't play this way to choose from. Some of my own favorite games include massacre losses as they can be just as fun as a victory. I don't plan to win very often with an all Kroot army, but I do plan to enjoy every game.

You could minimize your trouble with armour by adding a few meltaguns to your shapers. Ideally you should have a master chaper to do your hunting as he joins and leaves units melting or meltabombing tanks. Anghkor Prok is a pretty cool special character but should have been give a rule like rites to battle.

I like the idea of a 40 strong hound unit as it leaves many who see it speechless. In an all Kroot army I'm not going to skimp on the pts. I want it charging as soon as possible and leaving as little left as possible for the carnivores to mop up. To each their own though. In a mercenary contingent I might keep the Kroot to 15 as a few extra wounds can always be helpful.

Only two units can take meltaguns: the Master shaper and the Shaper Council. Personally, I use the Master Shaper mainly as a frontlines Ld booster and is quickly embroiled in combat or detacthed from a unit for meltabomb/tankhunting duties. Rarely does he have to opportunity to put his 50%-chance-to-hit-with-a-ranged-weapon ability to use. Not worth it to me. As for the Shaper Council, some people have put them to good use as a meltagun unit (with or without wings for this task) but I see them as a huge point sink as they are incredibly fragile, expensive, and still only have a 50% chance to hit. Perhaps if there was a +1 BS Evo upgrade (if Tyranids can get that, why can't Kroot? *sigh*). The Shaper Council is mediocre at best.

Anghor Prok is a fantastic model and character to use, however he's a special character, and that's his drawback (He does what? For how much? Hell no!). If you can use him he's great - not only because of his Inspiring Presence, but because he's 75 points for Ld 10 to fill out your other HQ slot.

As for the Kroot hounds, trust me, 30 Kroot starting out on your opponent's doorstep at the beginning of the game asking for the sir or madame of the house is just as impressive as 40. A 30 model unit can last you the game and the 80 points you're not tying up in the first round of assault can be put to better use elsewhere.

Interesting thoughts sir. It is too bad on the meltagun limit, but their is no meltabomb limit. It may be worth giving your master shaper a veneration charm to make sure he gets his licks in.

I've only used the council twice and don't like them either, its a lot of points to sink into one relatively soft unit. However I've found that adding 10 hounds greatly adds to their toughness and as long as you don't sink too many points into them they can still be a reasonably viable tank hunting unit. Before the new Eldar dex came out I had an allied Death Jester with bright lance allied to my Kroot from the online Harlequin rules.

It is too bad about Prok, he's a great idea poorly realized. You'r paying 75 pts for an hq slot filler, with no extra gear to get a to hit reroll? Lame! I'll give the reduced Kroot hound unit a try. I'm hoping to squeeze 2 of them into an 1800 pt army so thats probably the smarter way to go.

I've also read some theoryhammer on Shaper Councils with max hounds, HNO's and Evicerators. It was an interesting proposition and again, it requires sinking a great number of points into a reletively fragile unit.

But you mentioned Eldar. I think the Kroot would do very well allied with them because the Kroot boost the Eldar numbers while receiving support from the tough Eldar vehicles. If it's one thing Kroot are missing, it's range anti-tank support.

My typical hound pack comes to 296 points with all the goodies - evicerators, BotS, and SFC - and I run two units when possible. 9.9 points per model versus 9.05 for a full, plain unit of Carnivores (181 points for 20 models, and 10.3 points per model after an evicerator is added) - the Kroot Hound Pack is the most versitile, points-efficient unit the Kroot have.

How on earth did I let this thread escape my gaze for a full five days?  Warsmith Dave and Furious have pretty much hit on the main points with hound packs.  I've written a Kroot Tactica based on plenty of in-game experience which will outline why that set-up tends to be the most effective points-wise and on the actual battlefield.

http://z8.invisionfree.com/KompletelyKroot/index.php?showtopic=53

As for the shaper council, I think I'm the advocate of the full council decked out with eviscerators and more hounds.  The tactics article covers that as well, but the main reason I believe it to be so fantastic is that most players don't really know what it can do, and it looks just like any other hound pack.  On paper it is an obvious points sink, but in practice it has a certain psychological effect that you can't really put a points cost on.  A decked out hound pack and a decked out shaper council infiltrating with blood of the stalker will be right on your opponent's doorstep and he most likely won't even realize just how many eviscerator attacks that will be from one unit and may target the hounds instead because they 'look bigger'.  That's happened to me a lot, it's so hard to keep my poker face when they begin shooting at the hounds and ignoring the shaper council.

As for Angkhor Prok, he costs 75 points regardless of how many Kroot models you have, and he mastercrafts them all.  He's obviously a great buy in an all-Kroot army, but I'm not sure he can be taken as an allied detachment to another army (His rules say he may be taken in a Tau or Kroot Mercs army, but if you're using Kroot as allies then the army is neither of those, it's Chaos, or Eldar, or whatever).

- Oaka

Don't worry Oaka, we forgive you. Just to show theres no hard feelings you get the honour of finishing this delicious raw human brain we have been saving for a special occassion.


"And if you kill anyone, make sure to eat their heart to gain their courage. Their rich, tasty courage."

Oaka, it's been too long. This thread is now complete.

It took me a litle while to get around to it, but I finally read your tactica. It's pretty solid and I like how a number of pertinent topics are addressed. I especially enjoyed your analysis of the Evolutionary upgrades, Shaper Councils, and Angkhor Prok.

The information on Gnarlok Riders informative as I was unaware of the rules updates. Unfortunately I have not and do not plan on using Forgeworld rules. Most of the games I play are in tournaments which do not allow them. However, I would be quite happy if the (older version) of the unit were integrated into a new KMA ruleset (heck, while I'm making a wish list, why not new rules to update the Junglefight rules, Punji Traps, and Trackers).

Thanks for the link - I'll be sure to pass it on to anyone looking for advice on the KMA.

P.S. Anything new and exciting with your army?

Thanks Furious,

My army is on pause right now.  I love the Forgeworld Kroot models and have bought every single one of them, painted them up, and want to use them in games.  Due to the terrible GW-Forgeworld relationship (or that's what it seems, whatever it is is absolutely ridiculous from my point of view, two companies related to each other at ends with each other) I'm not allowed to use any of those fantastic models in tournaments.  I've taken this as a personal attack, so recently switched to Privateer Press and the wonderful game they created called Warmachine.  They are much more customer-friendly.  I'll always be a Kroot-fan at heart, but since all of my friends have recently sold their 40K armies to fund their Warmachine addictions I'll doubt I'll be playing any friendly games anytime soon.  Coupling that with the fact I can't use my army in tournaments, I'm stuck between a very expensive rock and an equally expensive hard place.  I may have to sell the Kroot soon like Mr. Reed did (I think his fantastic army is still up on eBay right now).  That is unlikely though, as I've spent the past 3 years of my hobby life on the Kroot exclusively.  Hoping to take them to Adepticon one day!

- Oaka

Hey i was wondering where to get the information for kroot. I mean do they have a codex or included in another armies codex or what. I play orc foot sloggers and a squad of kroot or two might sound useful.

The army list can be found here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/kroot%2Dlist/

GW has it on their web site available as a PDF. If you can't find it on the US site, try the UK.

The rules for the Kroot Mercenaries were originally released in White Dwarf and then revised and re-released in the Chapter Approved Collections for 2003 and 2004. The PDF currently on GW's web site is the most up to date version.