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 adamsouza wrote:
All the fething assasins are BETTER, but the complaint is they are seperate from the GK codex.
GW's motivations aside, the complaint about the Assasins falls under my #1 (More Money).

You can't just ignore GWs motivations when they're one of the primary factors listed by people for quitting the game. GW is progressively giving less and charging more, destroying fluff and being anti-consumer and lawsuit happy. That's not about money, that's about not letting yourself get shafted while you support something you love being trashed and others in the industry being sued by a copyright troll. GW charges Aussies 50% more for the same product, restricts where you can purchase their product from and enforces ridiculous, cumbersome restrictions on vendors. If you want to ignore that that's on you, the rest of us see it for the gak it is and are going to call GW on it. Cutting content to be sold separately in the form of DLC started in video games and PC gamers at least railed hard against it - and we got the publishers to tone it down substantially. If you bend over and accept it GW will happily shaft you 'til you're red raw.

GK Codex has less troops in it, now found elsewhere ? #1

Annoyance at needing to get 3 books, time consuming at needing to flick through 3 books to find things rather than 1, to locate 3 FAQs rather than 1, space restrictions needing to carry 2 books and a tablet for digital only product instead of one book. Same price but less content isn't about price - it's about value. If the price had of gone up but rather than cutting content they added content people would have been happy as hell. Inquisition +GK +Deathwatch +Sisters makes sense and would have been a great book that's very doable. Lots of tiny publications is annoying and designed purely to milk more money from players with no regard of how good the product is for them.

Found another game you rather spend your resources on ? #3 (Bored Now)

If I have the choice of a steak or a sausage and choose the steak it's not because I'm bored of sausages. That's just ridiculous.

Honestly, I'm going to stop talking about Starcraft. I played it for a week, found it far from perfect, not sure why people still play it.

Not talking about it would be a good idea then since you're ignorant of it.

Hating GW has become a meme at this point. There isn't anything they can do that won't incite rage on the internet at this point.

No, there's nothing they DO do that doesn't incite criticism because they've become a parody of the incomepetent short term focused corporation piloted by PHBs.

Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

New GK players are not going to care about assasins not being included in the GK codex.
6 months from now, the vast majority of GK players won't either.

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.

1.) I clearly wasn't addressing you, unless your posting under two accounts
2.) I stated how I percieve other people's complaints about edition changes falling into 3 catergories.
3.) FYI, I read that thread before Yonan linked to it, and it helped me form said opinions.
4.) You managed to take insult where there was none, then insult me, and follow it up with asking me to be open minded.

 adamsouza wrote:
Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

New GK players are not going to care about assasins not being included in the GK codex.
6 months from now, the vast majority of GK players won't either.

 MWHistorian wrote:
How do you get off telling me what my own motivations are? What kind of arrogance is that? Look at the thread that was linked to and try to have an open mind.

1.) I clearly wasn't addressing you, unless your posting under two accounts
2.) I stated how I percieve other people's complaints about edition changes falling into 3 catergories.
3.) FYI, I read that thread before Yonan linked to it, and it helped me form said opinions.
4.) You managed to take insult where there was none, then insult me, and follow it up with asking me to be open minded.

From this.

People can view their motivations through rose colored glasses, and I'm was being blunt about it.

You're saying what our reasons for leaving GW and ignoring what we're actually saying. I was just being blunt.

 adamsouza wrote:
Yonan, I am not saying that you don't have the right to be annoyed. I am just saying there is a difference between what annoys you and what may be profitable and better for the long term longevity of 40K.

I work in a field where we change products all the time, based on either availability or cost.
Reguardless of the quality of the replacement product, we get complaints about it in the first month.
There is a 90 day trial process for any new product we carry. If at the end of 90 days there are still complaints we will find another suitable replacement.
As of today, we've yet to have to replace ANY product at the end of the 90 day trial based on complaints.

That's all well and good for whoever you work for but the same can't apply to GW as they don't listen to customer feedback. They have no idea if people are still complaining 91 days later or not and given the amount of time between releases its still horribly impractical. People have been complaining about some models for a decade now but things like chaos marine core troops and high elf spearmen and archers still haven't recived updated sculpts.

Not all complaints merit being addressed.

Artistic design choices are highly subjective.

People have been complaining about some models for a decade now but things like chaos marine core troops and high elf spearmen and archers still haven't recived updated sculpts.

Someone at GW either likes those sculpts, or decided they are not profitable enough to resculpt.

And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Ultimately it boils down to this:
There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.
GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.
They are doing something wrong.

edit: scratch that, cbf

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

What evidence do you have to say that? Seeing as how they don't communicate with customers and do no market research.

 adamsouza wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
And companies don't just deserve to make money because they put out a product.

Yes

There are a lot of complaints here and elsewhere in the wargaming world.
GW seem to be not addressint many, if any.

Even when they do, it will cause more complaints

7th edition and the new codexes are a response to complaints about 6th edition and all the codexes

GWs profits are down while the rest of the market seems to be doing exceptionally well.

GW outsells every other company in the market, who are themselves doing exceptionally well.

Again though GW ARE SHRINKING RAPIDLY IN A MARKET THAT MAY NEVER HAVE SEEN THIS KIND OF GROWTH BEFORE.
Everything you are saying might make sense if GW where in a strong financial position but they aren't. Yes, for now no one company can match them for sales but no one needs to. GWs revenue from north America last year was in the area of 40-49 million, the wargaming market as a whole was over 125 million. GW makes up closer to q third of the US market than they do half.
Fantasy flight games grew 25% or so last year, and their miniatures division went from 16% to 33% of their total. That suggests x wing doubled in popularity last year.
Corvus Belli had 2 consecutive years of 75% growth and their worst year in the last 6 or so was 'only' 14% growth.

GW hasn't seen more than 3% growth in recent years and suddenly last year their revenue dropped 8% and profits 42%.

At this rate they will be irrelevant in a few years, or outright collapse.

I think Sanctus Reach and Stormclaw give us a pretty good indication of where 40K is headed once all the books and current model range is brought up to 7th.

As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

Sorry adam but you don't get to decide what other peoples motivations are and then claim you are just saying it as it is.

 More Dakka wrote:
I think Sanctus Reach and Stormclaw give us a pretty good indication of where 40K is headed once all the books and current model range is brought up to 7th.

As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

But that's the problem, it isn't working for them. (as evidenced by the last two financial reports) The lack of balance is chasing customers away, partially due to the frustration gross imbalances create.
As for play testing, every other company seems to be able to do it. It's GW's own policy of Iron Curtain secrecy that keeps them from properly play testing.

I don't think we can judge the success of the current course yet. I'm not going to champion GW's business practices, especially given many of their more recent maneuvers. I'm just saying they're moving in a new direction and it will take at least 6+ months to see how it goes, even then it's going to be hard to say since the Sanctus Reach campaign is a fairly small sample.

The reason I think this is their new strategy is that they've admitted to using FW as a testing field for new rules and units, and the success of the Horus Heresy has the hallmarks of the things they seem to be trying with the Sanctus Reach campaign (unique units/formations, story driven missions with self-contained special rules sets etc).

 More Dakka wrote:
As a business strategy I think they're trying to move models that aren't considered super-competitive by making a rich, non-super-competitive environment based on self contained campaigns and story driven missions.

Look at the work that would have to go into play-testing every Codex to balance it for competitive play. You'd be severely lengthening your time to market for models, and at the end of the day certain units/combos will always be dominant. GW's response, which they have held onto for several editions now, is that they're a beer and pretzels, non-competitive game, and to follow suit they are making more products to back this stance up.

I think their strategy is solid, I mean as solid as any strategy can be for a vertically integrated company that sells plastic toys to teenagers through adults (notably outside of the key demographic for most toy manufacturers which is the 12 and under crowd) that is publicly traded and also doesn't have a dedicated marketing department.

I agree with everything you've said.

The most "balanced" edition we've ever had was 3rd edition, and it was balanced by being terribely vanilla.

Considering how well Storm Claw sold, I imaigine we will see more combo sets, with slow moving product and fluffy pamphlet of scenarios, to come.

How well did Storm Claw sell?

An absence of stock =\= massive sales numbers, and I'm not even convinced there was a dearth of stock outside of the panic when the website sold out, and that could have been entirely down to a pitiful allocation.

I mean, sure, it appears to have been well received, but that it sold well is purely assumption.

What makes you think it sold well because people liked the campaign element and not because it was the first place you could buy the mini rulebook people have been clamoring for since 7th was announced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal makes a good point too, we have seen a lot of limited releases sell out very quickly recently but only have tiny production runs, half of which are allocated to stores.

(Anecdotal I know but on that note there are still 6+ copies of Crusade of Fire around my local area.)

It's been discussed that GW product sales are heavily slanted to around the time of the products release.

If they make it, and then sell out of it in the first month ? That's a win for GW corporate.

They invested time and money in a project, then received an immediate return on the investment, without waste.

Storing unsold stock costs money.
Producing stock that becomes outdated wastes money.

From a corporate point of view, all these limited repacks of existing product, and limited run datacards are pure win.

You have no means of establishing how many units were produced, therefore have no metric for determining how well they sold.

Mini rulebook (which would have surfaced at some point regardless) + existing model sprues + campaign booklet =\= a significant investment of time or money, especially when essentially one's entire creative staff are on salary.

Its not a win if they produce a thousand, sell a thousand and three thousand other people are left wanting one but no stock, or if they produce a thousand, sell 500 and allocate the rest to stores, which barely move any afterwards.

How much better would they be if they spent the money on play testing vs. lawsuits and IP lawyering.

This is only throwing money away. I understand why they do it as they want to protect what is theirs, but it's only theirs because they took it from somewhere else and called it "GW".

I look at other companies like Blizzard/Fantasy Flight and the Old GW - who embrace their player base and their true consumer - the FLGS. If you're not making the folks who carry/commercialize your material happy, how can you satisfy your shareholders?

It just seems the current GW gets very emotionally attached to it's "things" and when you are too emotional, you don't consider long term goals/objectives.

I am a big fan of the Space Wolves book. I think it's one of the best they have put out and the new Fantasy release with Nagash looks epic too.

I'm hoping they build on this and move forward as well as throw some more discounted kits our way (like Stormclaw).

Azreal13 wrote:You have no means of establishing how many units were produced, therefore have no metric for determining how well they sold.

They sold out on the website. Every FLGS I've been to said they can't get any more. That's all I have to go on, and it's good enough for me.

The alternative would be GW hoarding product they could be selling, for no sane reason.

Mini rulebook (which would have surfaced at some point regardless) + existing model sprues + campaign booklet =\= a significant investment of time or money, especially when essentially one's entire creative staff are on salary.

Exactly. In these tough financial times GW leaned on fluff, a repack, a previously unattainable rulebook, and a limited run, all at minial investment to create a product that sold out quickly and simultaneously increased their revenue while eliminating stock from storage.

jonolikespie wrote:Its not a win if they produce a thousand, sell a thousand and three thousand other people are left wanting one but no stock, or if they produce a thousand, sell 500 and allocate the rest to stores, which barely move any afterwards.

Stormclaw was basically 6 boxes of existing models. If they only produced a 1000, and sold them all, they moved 6,000 box sets of minaitures in month they weren't likely to sell anywhere near that quickly otherwise.

What limited run product has GW produced in the last year that's wasting away on shelves unsold ?

Ork Datacards ? Nope, going for nearly $30 on Ebay.
Space Wolves Datacards ? Nope, going for nearly $30 on Ebay
Void Shield Generator ?
Stormclaw ?

About the only limited run thing not selling like hot cakes are the ridiculously priced Collectors editions of the new Codexes.
They are priced soo high GW is profiting on them, even with the remnants in their warehouse.

Moreover, it's proof they're starting to/trying to react to market pressures. Something they have haven't done since they started moving to high-quality plastic over cast-metal boxed sets (3rd ed saw this come in with significant price drops and better quality models).

The new model bundles are further proof that they're moving in this direction. Remember all of the 6th ed bundles that came out with next to no savings? Compare that to all of the bundles that have come out since Sanctus Reach, including Stormclaw.

Now, I don't want to jump the shark here, but I think one of the things that came along with Tom Kirby leaving is that they may have actually shifted their business strategies to a marketing department.

Regarless of what's happening I think the consumers are starting to benefit from it.

Yes they are benefiting from it - we've all picked up much better games like X-Wing, DZC, Deadzone and so on.

Even with Xwing, DZC, and Attack Wing - I still say if BFG had any type of support it would see a major resurgence. Those figs/ships still go for at cost on ebay and I know of 6 players just in our group still moving along.

 More Dakka wrote:
Moreover, it's proof they're starting to/trying to react to market pressures. Something they have haven't done since they started moving to high-quality plastic over cast-metal boxed sets (3rd ed saw this come in with significant price drops and better quality models).

The new model bundles are further proof that they're moving in this direction. Remember all of the 6th ed bundles that came out with next to no savings? Compare that to all of the bundles that have come out since Sanctus Reach, including Stormclaw.

Now, I don't want to jump the shark here, but I think one of the things that came along with Tom Kirby leaving is that they may have actually shifted their business strategies to a marketing department.

Regarless of what's happening I think the consumers are starting to benefit from it.

But the problem is, they don't understand the market, they won't be able to react properly. It's like a medieval doctor trying to cure the plague. He doesn't understand what's going on, so he'll throw some leeches on and pray.

Simply assuming that "they don't understand the market and therefor will fail with their new attempts" is silly.

Sure, the old ways were obviously failing, but with ward and kirby gone, and an obvious shift in tactics both in marketing and management of kits and what comes out, and on how codcies are made (from a mass of crazy rules with little to no possibility to ever balance to more bland yet better balanced codcies)-its clear SOMEONE took their places and is leading things up in a new direction.

Maybe that someone new ISNT that incompetent and actually has a good business plan that is just starting to unfold? maybe the whole "many small different things" we see lately is honestly just the new management doing their research to see just what the audience responds well to in order to formulate their future plans?


Part of the problem of listening to the community, is that the community either have no clue what they want, or that they are never pleased and always will complain (a very human trait)
They cried for better balance, and newer codcies got better balance-now the cry for being too bland.
They wanted more options so malstorm and altar of war were added for alternate gameplay, malstorm is too random, altar too non-symmetrical.
We wanted some big guns-LoW were introduced, now people complain that there ARE big guns.

With many people, especially on the internet, there is jst no pleasing. every possible choice will result in rage, even a non-choice of keeping things the same. so a company cannot really work with internet rage with any level of rationality.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Simply assuming that "they don't understand the market and therefor will fail with their new attempts" is silly.

Unless of course they are failing..

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, the old ways were obviously failing, but with ward and kirby gone, and an obvious shift in tactics both in marketing and management of kits and what comes out, and on how codcies are made (from a mass of crazy rules with little to no possibility to ever balance to more bland yet better balanced codcies)-its clear SOMEONE took their places and is leading things up in a new direction.

Maybe that someone new ISNT that incompetent and actually has a good business plan that is just starting to unfold? maybe the whole "many small different things" we see lately is honestly just the new management doing their research to see just what the audience responds well to in order to formulate their future plans?

Kirby isn't gone. Next year he is going to step down as CEO and maintain his position as Chairman of the Board. The only reason he is doing so is because was only 'acting' CEO as being both is illegal in the UK.

You can't assume because he is returning to only being chairman of the board things will change, he will still hold a lot of power, including that to chose his successor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Part of the problem of listening to the community, is that the community either have no clue what they want, or that they are never pleased and always will complain (a very human trait)
They cried for better balance, and newer codcies got better balance-now the cry for being too bland.
They wanted more options so malstorm and altar of war were added for alternate gameplay, malstorm is too random, altar too non-symmetrical.
We wanted some big guns-LoW were introduced, now people complain that there ARE big guns.

With many people, especially on the internet, there is jst no pleasing. every possible choice will result in rage, even a non-choice of keeping things the same. so a company cannot really work with internet rage with any level of rationality.

GW failed spectacularly with the execution of each of those examples and frankly your entire premise is flawed from the get go because you're right, no one can please everyone, but other companies are all doing a very good job of pleasing the vast majority.
The kind of rage, sky is falling panic and confusion you see accompanying a GW release is a uniquely GW experience.

I can see them redoing the 6th edition books, getting rid of ll the artwork and adding lords of war.

As its such a quick turn around we might see some of the older kits redone like csm and eldar bikes

Jono covered that pretty well.

Its pretty tiring seeing the arguments along the lines of 'you asked for this, and you got it, yet you complain', because it completely misses out on why people are still complaining. The codices argument is shaky at best.

Yes, we wanted better balanced codices. The current ones are better balanced, but they still have a long way to go to being on the level other companies are achieving. Further, the issues people have with them is that while they may be more balanced, they cut a lot stuff from them; units, fluff, and artwork, while retaining a very high cost.

People aren't just complaining because they like to or they're hard to please. You're going to please every single person, but you can do a far sight better than what GW is doing currently.

Also, seriously, who was complaining about not being to use superheavies in standard games? People had Apoc for that, and it worked perfectly.

Every other miniatures company solicits feedback from the community is some form or another. Oddly enough, they all seem to have a far higher satisfaction among customers, and are enjoying significant growth.