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But spamming GW broken units of doom is fine. Spam all the conscripts you want.
Again with the freaking conscripts?
Tell me, if you can't kill conscripts, how do you plan to deal with orks? Sure boyz are twice the price, but they also have around 4x the hitting power along with morale immunity that CAN'T be sniped out.
4x the hitting power is quite the claim, how do you figure?
Conscripts shoot twice and punch once.
Boyz shoot once and punch thrice...unless there's more than 20 of them, in which case they punch four times.
Conscripts are S3.
Boyz are S4.
Conscripts and boyz shoot on 5+.
Conscripts punch at 5+. Boyz punch at 3+.
If you give conscripts a lord commissar, I'm giving da boyz a nob with waaaaagh! banner which will let me hit in CC on 2+ instead of 3+. If you use your commander to issue FRFSRF to your conscripts, I'm using a wyrdboy to give the orks an extra attack.
50 conscripts + a lord commissar is 200 points.
30 boyz + a waaaaagh! banner is 235 points, and the orks are far more likely to have multiple units of boyz than the IG are to have multiple units of conscripts.
If you can't kill the conscripts, how can you possibly take orks? Conscripts are possibly the least scary horde unit in the game. The only thing they have going for them is their low cost. They universally suck at everything they do, except die.
And before you say it, no. 50 conscripts + FRFSRF is not 200 shots because it's not realistic to get that many conscripts into 12" of their target at the same time. At best they'll get a about a third of the squad into rapid fire range for roughly 134 shots @ S3. About 44 of which will hit, and 22 of which will wound when shooting T3 targets. The list of T3 is fairly short...so to keep things fair we'll go with T4. So out of 44 hits, only about 15 will wound.
After that you charge, which shouldn't be all that exciting since, again, your numbers will work against you. Even with a good charge distance, you're entirely dependent on the size of your target unit's facing to maximize your attacks. Realistically, if you're in initial contact rather than adding yourself to a fight in progress, you won't be able to get into CC with more than half your conscripts. And that's being generous. So add 25 attacks, hitting on 5+. Out of 8 hits, you wound T4 on 5+ so add 3 more wounds.
Grand total of ~18 wounds.
Compare to orks, who with their charge distance re-roll and smaller mob are far more likely to get entirely into CC with you than you are with them...
We'll say you get 24 into CC on the charge. That's 24 * 5 = 120 attacks that hit on 2+. Out of 103 hits you're wounding on 4+ against most targets actually worth wounding for 51 wounds. Plus your pistol shots. If you got 24 into CC, you probably had roughly the same number shooting so 24 shot, 8 hit, and another 4 wounds...
55 wounds from 24 models...compared to 18 from 50...it's pretty simple math past that point. 2 wounds per boy vs 0.5 wounds per conscript. 4x the hitting power at twice the cost per model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/15 21:28:58
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's actually easier to kill Orks for the price. The 6+ is entirely easy to negate, and T4 isn't too big a deal in terms of small arms.
Sure. But they're still ridiculously easy to spam as "large mobs of boyz" is kind of the whole point.
Also, compared to conscripts, their T4 makes up for the 6+. All losses are by ratio, so it's pure multiplication from the top to the bottom. That means order of operations doesn't matter. Vs the same strength, conscripts are going to get +1 to their armor save, but they're going to be at -1 to their wound rolls vs small arms. This evens out because order of ops doesn't matter.
The only army conscripts actually have an advantage over orks when fighting is Tau because the extra point of S they get going from S4 to S5 is wasted on the conscripts T3.
Meanwhile, there are no armies that field small arms with S2.
While orks beat conscripts point for point via number of attacks, nids beat them on shere quality and maneuverability (though they pay through the nose for it). Termagaunts can be fielded in large groups with an HQ choice that refills the squad. Hormagaunts are highly mobile, first turn charge capable with just a little support from the army (by way of a swarmlord or onslaught psychic power letting them double-move-advance)
Lets look at Hormagaunts for a second. At 6 ppm (same as ork boyz) because we're giving them Adrenal glands for the +1 on advance and charge moves...
So, because of their move of 8", and either the Swarmlord or Onslaught, they're getting the charge. Add in adrenal glands and their 6" pile-in, and it's safe to say they're getting all 30 models into CC (which is the opposite of orks, who will be giving up attacks, and doubly-so for conscripts).
30 models @ 2 attacks each with scything talons with WS 4+ means 30 hits + half the 1's (5/2 or 2 more) for 32 hits. S3 vs T4 means 10 wounds + rerolling 1's for another 2 (same math as the hits) or 12 wounds.
So for 180 points + the cost of support you'd probably be taking anyway you get 6 less wounds than conscripts do with twice the support that is even more immune to sniper-removal, and any unit they pin in CC is going to have a much harder time withdrawing from CC because of the Hormagaunts vastly superior movement ability (seriously, that 6" consolidation/pile-in move is nuts).
While I don't mention a plan for synapse, if you're playing around a 1st turn charge with gaunts, you're going to have a plan for 1st turn synapse. If you don't, you're just being dumb.
Less wounds, more utility.
I'm not even going to math out 30 genestealers, and yes they can get a 1st turn charge. It's a lot more expensive than conscripts, but if you think for a minute the conscripts are going to get a better value for their points than genestealers in CC on 1st turn from deepstrike, you're insane.
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
So you admit that spamming is not a problem because of balance reasons (as spamming overpowered units is still a balance problem even if they're troops, see 7th edition scatter laser jetbike spam), you hate it because it involves building a list in a way that you don't like building your own lists. IOW, "YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN THE RIGHT WAY STOP IT NOW."
Scatter bikes were a mistake, they basically are the "exception that proves the rule" Bikes should have never been troops, but fast attacks, and that specific bikes were extremely underpriced.
I don't think that the spam concept is wrong, spamming decent or weak units is not an issue at all, even if you bring 2-300 bodies.
The problem comes when you spam units that are clearly a mistake in judgment when the GW guys wrote their profiles. And about big stuff I still think that there are several units that shouldn't belong to regular games but only in 3K points or higher formats. I feel free to complain about that The problem is having some overpowered units available, like stormravens, those things should be limited somehow.
For the record I'm an ork player that doesn't like playing hordes, but I defend them since I love the concept and to play against them.
GreaterGood? wrote: Whoa.... I'm out of this thread. I forgot how prevalent the anti-competitive mindset was within the 40k community.
There's no point in even discussing issues when people think:
jeff white wrote: Spam is a symptom of a general lack of intelligence. Spammers who spam units to make an auto win button for themselves are unable to understand that winning at all costs including excessive reflexive financial costs is not the aim of the game hobby or LIFE for that matter. Mostly I blame the collapse of culture around the worship of Mammon but this is beside the point. I would refuse to play with anyone with a netlist of X units and would rather sit at a table and paint while listening to someone else suffer the bad decision to engage with such.
Maybe not with me. But others, well, you may be able to change someone else's mind.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: "I came in 1st in a tourney, and 2nd in a 2nd tourney using vanilla marines in 2nd Ed. So whoever was playing vanilla marines in your neighborhood clearly didn't know what they were doing. "
Good luck when the Tyranid strategy cards killed a 1/3 of your list before the game started. What a great game! I guarantee you could not beat the chaos and tyranid players in my meta with your frickin vanilla marines. Marines had like what? Two effective weapons? I don't know who is in this tournament, but in 2nd ed, I saw TWO table flips vs tyranids. (And a lot of damaged metal hormagaunts) Both marines. Marines were 30 pts a model! For a boltgun! Really? In a game with to-hit modifiers! I personally played a 3K game against CSM where the CSM killed my entire list before I could take a single turn! Not even 7th ed Eldar could that!
2nd was a dumpster fire, and I really do NOT understand how anyone derives any joy from that edition.
Play with different people. Though I have to say the my main opponent during that time always moved his orks an extra bit and in those year I never won. Not once. But still I like some things about that game that in 8th I don't. Terrain and cover effects. Charging. RPG attitude. More collectible. Less card game deckbuilder... I wonder whatvwe would have iif geedubs just tweaked that system rather than the Wardization enema they gave it ...
In the context of this thread I take spam to be " competitive" people using multiple same units to win at the expense of immersion and in the end sportsmanship... There used to be sportsmanship scores at GTs. Sure spam is also six units of gobbos but this does not represent the intentions of the op. Multiple - as in forty warp spiders for example - OP or broken units kitted out to exploit rules and game mechanism rather than test strategy and army Comp including thematic elements, this is spam afaiac.
So you don't actually have advice for 2nd Edition games besides play with other people that don't abuse the worst the edition has to offer. Got it. Utterly useless piece of wisdom there, bud.
So please do go on how using three Predators and 10 man Deathmark squads makes me less intelligent. I'm waiting.
Remove the offending cards like virus cards or choose not to use them for example.
As for intelligence and wisdom there is a difference.
Truly intelligent people want a challenge, not a win button.
Building auto win buttons is not challenging, but it can be expensive.
Wisdom involves recognizing the benefit of a challenge, this being experience, improvement and wisdom.
Auto win buttons do not make people wise.
Usually it is loss that makes people wise.
So I suppose I may offer another bit of wisdom.
Aim to share your time with people who don't mind losing, or at least who appreciate the value in a challenge that may well result in their loss.
I don't know how easily it is to find this mindset wherever you are living working playing.
I can say that in the thirty odd years that I lived in the USA the general lack of either coupled with the attention spans of gnats and the consideration of selfish six year olds led me to leave and never regret it.
But this is likely due my bad luck and poor judgment when it comes to people as much as anything else.
Maybe you are more fortunate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/15 23:13:20
Arandmoor wrote: If you give conscripts a lord commissar, I'm giving da boyz a nob with waaaaagh! banner which will let me hit in CC on 2+ instead of 3+.
If you use your commander to issue FRFSRF to your conscripts, I'm using a wyrdboy to give the orks an extra attack.
50 conscripts + a lord commissar is 200 points.
30 boyz + a waaaaagh! banner is 235 points, and the orks are far more likely to have multiple units of boyz than the IG are to have multiple units of conscripts.
50 conscripts + a lord commissar and a platoon commander is 225 pts, which you can bring down to 201 by taking a normal commissar. So that's 75 pts of support staff per 150 pts of conscripts, normally 51 pts of support staff.
30 boyz + a waaaaagh! banner and a weirdboy is 321 points. There's a scalability issue as well, the weirdboy can only buff one unit of boyz every turn (assuming that he succeeds) and the power can only be attempted once per turn. That's 141 pts of support staff per 180 pts of boyz.
So I think that you are comparing apples and oranges in this case. I'm not doubting that the orks put out more damage per point, but the increase isn't 100% and they need to get into melee without too many losses in order to bring that damage to bear.
So you admit that spamming is not a problem because of balance reasons (as spamming overpowered units is still a balance problem even if they're troops, see 7th edition scatter laser jetbike spam), you hate it because it involves building a list in a way that you don't like building your own lists. IOW, "YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN THE RIGHT WAY STOP IT NOW."
Scatter bikes were a mistake, they basically are the "exception that proves the rule" Bikes should have never been troops, but fast attacks, and that specific bikes were extremely underpriced.
I don't think that the spam concept is wrong, spamming decent or weak units is not an issue at all, even if you bring 2-300 bodies.
The problem comes when you spam units that are clearly a mistake in judgment when the GW guys wrote their profiles. And about big stuff I still think that there are several units that shouldn't belong to regular games but only in 3K points or higher formats. I feel free to complain about that The problem is having some overpowered units available, like stormravens, those things should be limited somehow.
For the record I'm an ork player that doesn't like playing hordes, but I defend them since I love the concept and to play against them.
I am in general agreement here.
Anyone who after reading eighth edition rules
goes out and buys six weirdboys and three hundred boys to take advantage of da jump wit extras because casualties
and a hundred stormboys then pays someone else to paint and assemble them simply because that person thinks that he or she has found an auto win button then twists the army comp rules to be able to field them all perhaps complaining about arbitrary limitations on how many times orks can use da jump per turn (in 7th there was deamon summoning for instance along with scatter laser bikes - i know no longer things but beside the point) is spamming in the bad way as this practice is imo bad for the game and the hobby and for that person, actually, as well as most anyone he or she games with. It is reactions to rules systems like this in the name of competiveness - Gotta stay competitive! - that count as spam in my book. It is more than fielding multiple units. It is an attitude. And sure to play against such a person and such a "list" maybe a challenge and even fun if invited and voluntary but being stuck with a group or local community that is rife with this attitude is torture in my opinion and should be considered a war(game) crime punishable with warm mountain dew and smashed chip bags.
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Khaine wrote: Spam is not a problem in itself, but WAAC players who write extreme lists that take advantage of under-costed or overpowered units are a problem and will never get a game from me. Sorry guy with 500 conscripts.
500? Dayam... My elbow hurts just thinking about movement phases cuz i would be spending thirty minutes with them on the table waiting for my opponent to move five hundred conscripts.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/07/15 23:22:54
Can we please not derail yet another thread whining about conscripts? Because frankly, given how many models you'd have to paint to "spam" conscripts, if anyone tried, I'd just pat them on the back and say "I'm sorry".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: Can we please not derail yet another thread whining about conscripts? Because frankly, given how many models you'd have to paint to "spam" conscripts, if anyone tried, I'd just pat them on the back and say "I'm sorry".
Troof.
Cuz you wouldn't be able to shake his or her hand as it would have fallen off painting 500 conscripts.
Truly a sad case.
Melissia wrote: and you don't really care, so you're wasting my time.
Wow is it really all about you? That is exactly how you are coming off. I really hope not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can I say the thing I loved most about 3rd edition was the Detachment lists. So when I suggest using percentages I am only acknowledging that taking 2 min strength ranger units so I can utilize the better units WAS A WAY TO abuse the system
And an FYI for those not in the know or others who have obviously forgotten.
a 25% minimum troops (50% in some 2nd ed tournaments) would not be 'troops' as it is now. It would be all infantry, or whatever tyranids and other races pass for infantry.
Does that mean taking 3 super heavy scorpions would not fit or 6 ork flyers? I don't know. What is the aim in a competitive format? Is it open like Narrative or are there some restrictions like Tournament Matched Play.
This is going to be a different answer for every player.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/16 00:44:54
koooaei wrote: We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
Arandmoor wrote: If you give conscripts a lord commissar, I'm giving da boyz a nob with waaaaagh! banner which will let me hit in CC on 2+ instead of 3+. If you use your commander to issue FRFSRF to your conscripts, I'm using a wyrdboy to give the orks an extra attack.
50 conscripts + a lord commissar is 200 points.
30 boyz + a waaaaagh! banner is 235 points, and the orks are far more likely to have multiple units of boyz than the IG are to have multiple units of conscripts.
50 conscripts + a lord commissar and a platoon commander is 225 pts, which you can bring down to 201 by taking a normal commissar. So that's 75 pts of support staff per 150 pts of conscripts, normally 51 pts of support staff.
30 boyz + a waaaaagh! banner and a weirdboy is 321 points. There's a scalability issue as well, the weirdboy can only buff one unit of boyz every turn (assuming that he succeeds) and the power can only be attempted once per turn. That's 141 pts of support staff per 180 pts of boyz.
So I think that you are comparing apples and oranges in this case. I'm not doubting that the orks put out more damage per point, but the increase isn't 100% and they need to get into melee without too many losses in order to bring that damage to bear.
Unrelated: Where does it say you can only attempt to use a psychic ability once per turn? Best I can find you can attempt them once per turn per psyker that knows it.
I mention that the boyz are more expensive. That's not the issue.
The issue is the claim that conscripts are somehow OP, when by all math they straight up suck at everything but dying quickly. Other tarpit type units can do much the same job, and also kill things while they're at it. So if you're having trouble with conscripts, there's simply no way you'll ever be able to take on orks or nids who, yes, pay more for their hordes, but also get horde units that can kill you while they're tarpitting something valuable.
This is important because it illustrates WHY conscripts suck as hard as they do. When conscripts tarpit, they do so until they die because, generally, they aren't going to kill whatever it is they're tarpitting.
An ork mob or nid swarm, OTOH, is going to tarpit for a turn or two, kill whatever it is they were tying up, and move on.
If you don't have the tools to handle the conscripts, orks and nids are going to wreck you. That's why conscripts aren't OP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/16 02:19:40
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
Melissia wrote: and you don't really care, so you're wasting my time.
Wow is it really all about you?
Is this incessant whining about "spam" all about you, then? People are saying "Spam armies are ugly!" and I'm disagreeing. If you don't like my opinions you're free to ignore or dispute them. Fact remains, I find "one of each kind of unit" armies ugly and lazy.
Your "solution" remains a non-solution. There's no problem here that your "solution" would fix, so why do you keep pushing it, out of blind nostalgia?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/16 02:59:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
So far as I can tell there are three kinds of spam:
1) An over-powered or under-costed unit is taken in order to maximize a player's chance at winning. This is bad kind of spam, because it creates an unbalanced game. The fault for this kind of spam is on the game developers for not balancing the units and discouraging spam.
2) A player spams a unit in an effort to appear 'in the know' and ape the expected forms of 'efficient' armies. This is an annoying kind of spam because it involves a false value judgment, but it's ultimately harmless because it rarely creates an imbalanced army - just an army that desperately wants to be imbalanced.
3) A unit is spammed as a joke or a stylistic choice by a player. This is a value-neutral spam, as it can add to the game or make it worse, just like all of the myriad other choices a player can make.
Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill
I think it's perfectly okay for a list to be 50%-75% the same models. It's when it gets beyond 75%-80% that there's a balance issue. If you don't need to use at least some of your army to shore up the weaknesses of what you're spamming, then the spammed model obviously doesn't have enough weaknesses.
Tylendal wrote: I think it's perfectly okay for a list to be 50%-75% the same models. It's when it gets beyond 75%-80% that there's a balance issue. If you don't need to use at least some of your army to shore up the weaknesses of what you're spamming, then the spammed model obviously doesn't have enough weaknesses.
Oh get it! It's because Space Marines have a max squad size of ten per unit and they don't have much in the way of countering 20 to 30 model size groups of disposable units.
a 25% minimum troops (50% in some 2nd ed tournaments) would not be 'troops' as it is now. It would be all infantry, or whatever tyranids and other races pass for infantry.
I oppose this part. Look at it this way. If at least 25% of my army has to be Sisters Dominions, who are infantry, and really good infantry, that's no big deal, because half my army is Dominions and the other half is their transports.
On the other hand, my guard list spends 250 points of infantry and 1750 points of tanks. I bring a lot of tanks, because that's what my army is. To even get 25% of my army to be infantry, I'd be putting out at least 110 models, probably more because Conscripts are cheaper than Guardsmen. And my riflemen are crap, and I bring just enough to form a blockade resilient enough to protect my tanks for two and a half turns.
Forcing a significant chunk of your army to be such a broad category of units, upon which some armies are entirely reliant and have extremely good options, and some armies would rather not have at all, is bad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 19:57:41
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
But how does one judge when an army has inherently limited options?
Consider my Thousand Sons, if you will.
I have.....Sorceror Lords, Rubricae, Tzaangor and Scarab Occult as my unique units. Plus of course Magnus and Ahriman should needs must.
My army is comprised entirely of said same units. Is that spam? I mean, I can pack an awful lot of Smites of varying potency into a given list, and Mortal Wounds are pretty damned saucy, especially for an army with few reliable Anti Tank options.
At what points does a particular theme become spam?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Also, I think armies that consist of a large number of one-of-a-kind units are unfluffy, obnoxious, and not really all that fun, and tend to feel incoherent and not like there's a coherent theme or strategy.
An army should consist of a large number of a couple of units that form the core of its strategy, and then a few other units attached as support.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I have.....Sorceror Lords, Rubricae, Tzaangor and Scarab Occult as my unique units. Plus of course Magnus and Ahriman should needs must.
My army is comprised entirely of said same units. Is that spam? I mean, I can pack an awful lot of Smites of varying potency into a given list, and Mortal Wounds are pretty damned saucy, especially for an army with few reliable Anti Tank options.
At what points does a particular theme become spam?
As someone who plays admech I feel you. It's very difficult for me to avoid spam in the first place, given my army has 16 units total, and building a competitive list cuts those options down even further. The fact I'm also one of the few armies discouraged to mix and match due to how canticles function doesn't help.
My army basically drops over half it's points into rangers with the sniper arquebus and onagers with the anti air array, to counter the major sources of spam in my local meta.
Unrelated: Where does it say you can only attempt to use a psychic ability once per turn? Best I can find you can attempt them once per turn per psyker that knows it.
Its under the battleforged rules in the main rulebook. Smite is the exception.
Unrelated: Where does it say you can only attempt to use a psychic ability once per turn? Best I can find you can attempt them once per turn per psyker that knows it.
Its under the battleforged rules in the main rulebook. Smite is the exception.
mondo80 wrote: Oh get it! It's because Space Marines have a max squad size of ten per unit and they don't have much in the way of countering 20 to 30 model size groups of disposable units.
...they're called stock Centurion Devastators backed up by a Primaris Rhino and/or a Captain.
I have.....Sorceror Lords, Rubricae, Tzaangor and Scarab Occult as my unique units. Plus of course Magnus and Ahriman should needs must.
My army is comprised entirely of said same units. Is that spam? I mean, I can pack an awful lot of Smites of varying potency into a given list, and Mortal Wounds are pretty damned saucy, especially for an army with few reliable Anti Tank options.
At what points does a particular theme become spam?
As someone who plays admech I feel you. It's very difficult for me to avoid spam in the first place, given my army has 16 units total, and building a competitive list cuts those options down even further. The fact I'm also one of the few armies discouraged to mix and match due to how canticles function doesn't help.
My army basically drops over half it's points into rangers with the sniper arquebus and onagers with the anti air array, to counter the major sources of spam in my local meta.
Unrelated: Where does it say you can only attempt to use a psychic ability once per turn? Best I can find you can attempt them once per turn per psyker that knows it.
Its under the battleforged rules in the main rulebook. Smite is the exception.
So...it's NOT under the psychic phase rules?
Goddamnit GW. WHY IS THIS NOT ON PAGE 178????????
Seriously...can I get a page number for this? I can't find it. This is frustrating me to no end.
I mean, I'm fine with it, but if I can't find it, I know I won't be the only one, and I want to be able to point it out to people who try to cheese me with four uses of Da Jump on turn 1.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/18 09:08:32
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
mondo80 wrote: Oh get it! It's because Space Marines have a max squad size of ten per unit and they don't have much in the way of countering 20 to 30 model size groups of disposable units.
...they're called stock Centurion Devastators backed up by a Primaris Rhino and/or a Captain.
I have.....Sorceror Lords, Rubricae, Tzaangor and Scarab Occult as my unique units. Plus of course Magnus and Ahriman should needs must.
My army is comprised entirely of said same units. Is that spam? I mean, I can pack an awful lot of Smites of varying potency into a given list, and Mortal Wounds are pretty damned saucy, especially for an army with few reliable Anti Tank options.
At what points does a particular theme become spam?
As someone who plays admech I feel you. It's very difficult for me to avoid spam in the first place, given my army has 16 units total, and building a competitive list cuts those options down even further. The fact I'm also one of the few armies discouraged to mix and match due to how canticles function doesn't help.
My army basically drops over half it's points into rangers with the sniper arquebus and onagers with the anti air array, to counter the major sources of spam in my local meta.
Unrelated: Where does it say you can only attempt to use a psychic ability once per turn? Best I can find you can attempt them once per turn per psyker that knows it.
Its under the battleforged rules in the main rulebook. Smite is the exception.
So...it's NOT under the psychic phase rules?
Goddamnit GW. WHY IS THIS NOT ON PAGE 178????????
Seriously...can I get a page number for this? I can't find it. This is frustrating me to no end.
I mean, I'm fine with it, but if I can't find it, I know I won't be the only one, and I want to be able to point it out to people who try to cheese me with four uses of Da Jump on turn 1.
CrownAxe was correct. its page 215 of the big rulebook, in the matched play rules.
In my opinion, spam is terrible. I got out of Warmahordes because armies were just "find the best thing, take as much of it as you can fit in" and now you see the same kind of nonsense here, 100+ razorwing flocks to abuse Soulburst, 6 stormravens, etc.
Honestly? I say bring comp back. Punish the people who do this kinda crap. I used to play in 2nd and 3rd and there was a reason why Army Composition was a key part of placing in events; to prevent just maxing out on the "best" units with minimal anything else. You could win all your games and not even place in a tournament if you got dinged on comp and/or sportsmanship for trying to game the system.
Wayniac wrote: In my opinion, spam is terrible. I got out of Warmahordes because armies were just "find the best thing, take as much of it as you can fit in" and now you see the same kind of nonsense here, 100+ razorwing flocks to abuse Soulburst, 6 stormravens, etc.
Now you see it? Spam has always been part of 40k, I don't know why you think this is a new thing.
Honestly? I say bring comp back. Punish the people who do this kinda crap. I used to play in 2nd and 3rd and there was a reason why Army Composition was a key part of placing in events; to prevent just maxing out on the "best" units with minimal anything else. You could win all your games and not even place in a tournament if you got dinged on comp and/or sportsmanship for trying to game the system.
Comp is a laughable failure. Not only does it almost always consist of insane "YOU AREN'T HAVING FUN THE WAY I TOLD YOU TO HAVE FUN STOP DOING IT NOW" rules that punish whatever random thing the TO lost their last game against and have very little to do with objective balance it doesn't even do the thing it's supposedly intended to do. Comp lets you bring the overpowered thing and ruin everyone's day, and only penalizes you at the end once those games are over and it's too late to give your opponents their fun experience back. So it becomes little more than a bunch of "casual at all costs" players masturbating over how "casual" they are and how poorly optimized their lists are while shunning everyone who ever beats them. If the balance issues are clear enough that you can point them out in a comp system then fix it the correct way. Change the rules, adjust point costs, etc, until there is no more balance problem and no need for comp.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Spam is an effective way to build an army if there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.
If only because you get target saturation, redundancy, remove clear priorities for the enemy... people are going to naturally gravitate towards taking a lot of one type of unit because killing 4 of X or 4 of Y is harder than killing 2 of each.
It's especially prevalent in newhammer due to the 'everything can hurt everything' rules. Because of this it is very easy to boil down units to a single efficiency calculation. We don't have the situation where eg you can take out MEQs with ease but struggle with TEQs, or good vs hordes but bad vs vehicles.
Couple that with very few inter-unit synergies, its easy to find the 2-3 choices which are worth taking. The buff units (Changeling, Guilliman, Dante, Draigo) are also the ones being spammed.
IMO the way to solve it is putting unit limits on each unit's datasheet. Warmachine has other issues with army lists, but it doesn't suffer that much from spam because most things are limited to 2 or 3 per army.
@ Peregrine : Comp may not be an ideal solution, but the unfortunate reality is that adjusting points values outside of official erratas is a non-starter for 99% of the community.
Redundancy is definitely an important factor to consider, especially in a high points game. I generally believe that if you're not taking at least three of something, you're not really committing to taking it. If you only take one, you're just asking for it to be shot off the board on the first turn.
Bikes should have never been troops, but fast attacks, and that specific bikes were extremely underpriced.
