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Martel732 wrote:
Just putting dudes in Rhinos screws over deep strike alpha too. But cheap screens let people be greedy and the best of all worlds. And IG screens have amazing damage for their cost.

Melee deep strike alphas are never going to be good even without screens because rolling a 9" charge is brutally difficult for a whole army.

Oh, and fallback is a thing. Yes, first turn alpha melee would have been good in the older editions. Not anymore.

Keep believing that, my friend. Meanwhile, the armies that actually can first-turn melee, e.g. Alpha Legion 'zerks and genestealers, will be happily doing so and trouncing opponents even through screens. I can't even imagine what would happen without them.

But yeah, I see no reason to treat with someone so deluded as to believe that a first turn melee alphastrike across an entire frontage would be bad, even if only half the chargers made it. You only need one model to tie up a unit and prevent it from ever shooting.

<FLY> models fall back and shoot.

Ultramarines fall back and shoot.

IG have enough bodies they don't care.

Alpha legion is viable, but must go first. A true crap shoot.

Genestealers are very very meh in practice. The shooting bugs are where its at.

9" charges don't succeed half the time, even. So it wouldn't be good even with zero screens. If the Descent of Angels hit every unit ,then yes, that would be a huge problem. But usually, you can just laugh at the deep strikers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just putting dudes in Rhinos screws over deep strike alpha too. But cheap screens let people be greedy and the best of all worlds. And IG screens have amazing damage for their cost.

Melee deep strike alphas are never going to be good even without screens because rolling a 9" charge is brutally difficult for a whole army.

Oh, and fallback is a thing. Yes, first turn alpha melee would have been good in the older editions. Not anymore.

Keep believing that, my friend. Meanwhile, the armies that actually can first-turn melee, e.g. Alpha Legion 'zerks and genestealers, will be happily doing so and trouncing opponents even through screens. I can't even imagine what would happen without them.

But yeah, I see no reason to treat with someone so deluded as to believe that a first turn melee alphastrike across an entire frontage would be bad, even if only half the chargers made it. You only need one model to tie up a unit and prevent it from ever shooting.

Tyranids do not send Genestealers against screens. Genestealers get their work done on turn 2+.

Any Tyranid player who uses GS to clear screens loses. That's a bad strategy.

I'm not going to let you get away with that comment. Back it up with some real justification that isn't "it happened one time to my 3 super heavies."

Prepare to be ignored, dismissed, or gish galloped away.

I don't even send Hormagants against screens.

I shoot screens.

You do not melee screens. You just don't. It's suicide.

I use Hormagants as screens. But my screens are T3, 6+, with no guns, and cost 5ppm.

Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just putting dudes in Rhinos screws over deep strike alpha too. But cheap screens let people be greedy and the best of all worlds. And IG screens have amazing damage for their cost.

Melee deep strike alphas are never going to be good even without screens because rolling a 9" charge is brutally difficult for a whole army.

Oh, and fallback is a thing. Yes, first turn alpha melee would have been good in the older editions. Not anymore.

Keep believing that, my friend. Meanwhile, the armies that actually can first-turn melee, e.g. Alpha Legion 'zerks and genestealers, will be happily doing so and trouncing opponents even through screens. I can't even imagine what would happen without them.

But yeah, I see no reason to treat with someone so deluded as to believe that a first turn melee alphastrike across an entire frontage would be bad, even if only half the chargers made it. You only need one model to tie up a unit and prevent it from ever shooting.

Tyranids do not send Genestealers against screens. Genestealers get their work done on turn 2+.

Any Tyranid player who uses GS to clear screens loses. That's a bad strategy.

I'm not going to let you get away with that comment. Back it up with some real justification that isn't "it happened one time to my 3 super heavies."

Marmatag wrote:I don't even send Hormagants against screens.

I shoot screens.

You do not melee screens. You just don't. It's suicide.

I use Hormagants as screens. But my screens are T3, 6+, with no guns, and cost 5ppm.

Not sure where I said the genestealers or hormagaunts (??) are attacking screens.

I said they do their damage through screens. Shooting is generally how this is achieved, but there are many other ways, including deep-striking Trygons (though this depends on opponent's error) for example.

You said Genestealers are first turn melee, and mentioned them in the same category as Berzerkers. I'm curious what that means, if it doesn't mean you're fighting screens?

I think we are noticing the elites are bad in 8th because of the rise of hordes. Armies I used to watch people play in 6th and 7th (Deathwatch and Deathwing) just get trampled on.

And tge chess comparison a few pages ago is dumb. You can't snipe a queen with a pawn 40" away while your opponent spams hundreds of Knights. Also, chess is a 1:1 game with set moves and predictable patterns. It's balanced because both armies have the same starting troops and have the same playing feild. You don't have a 25% more chance to take a queen with a pawn when it is right next to you, nore do you get a -1 to hit because you spray painted your chess peices silver.

As for the pawn being able to take a queen quote... in chess you don't move your pawn up on turn 1 to kill the queen like you can basically do in 40k. Your opponent has time to recognise danger and adjust their plans while in 40k you just have to sit there and take it for a turn....

 daedalus wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

That's broken, in fact even reaching an 1:1 is generally viewed as insanely powerful (and there's a reason with 1:2 trades are considered somewhat efficient in the game)

And yet, for editions, we didn't bat an eye when >50 points worth of meltagun infantry could take out a 250+ point land raider in a single shot.

And really nothing has changed as far as damage/odds go:

Plasmagun on BS4 against termies previously:
3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ save

Plasmagun on BS3+ against termies now:
3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ save

Point costs and delivery options changed, sure, but the base effectiveness of plasma didn't really go anywhere. And again, previously you could blow up vastly more expensive things in one lucky shot than you can now.

No one batted a eye because you had to get close for melta. WIth las cannons you can sit at max range and get even more firepower in 8th. That is what people are getting salty about.

 Marmatag wrote:
You said Genestealers are first turn melee, and mentioned them in the same category as Berzerkers. I'm curious what that means, if it doesn't mean you're fighting screens?

Not every army has screens.

Though I suppose in certain metas they do.

I wonder if one of the ways to help combat out is that when units retreat from combat there is a reverse overwatch. Like a one-time attack.

As for Scions, having been a victim of them, there is nothing inherently wrong with being able to deploy and kill a much more powerful unit. In abstract, at least. Scions, however, can drop a large amount of high quality firepower anywhere on the board (within 9), can easily get protection vs. the overcharge risk and are very cheap. They have the mobility, offensive power and affordability. It is too much in combination. Personally, I'd take away the deep strike if they have more than one special weapon.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Not every army has screens.

Against an army with no screens, Grey Knights are more dangerous than Genestealers.

Only IG deals too much damage PPM.