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 NickTheButcher wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I also happen to think that if his opponents didn't bring enough firepower to delete a unit of orks a turn, then that's on them. My usual opponents can quite easily wipe out 30 orks in one round of shooting.

That means at least 90 of these boys could have been deleted by turn 3.

So if they couldn't counter his army, how's that his fault? I'm fairly sure that in competitive tournaments the point is to win. Want to complain that someone won but didn't conform to your play style or what you thinks fair? Well, sorry but that happens.
Maybe bring a few more heavy bolter and assault cannons and a little less elite killing gubbins.

So the answer is that you must bring an army capable of tabling a horde army by turn 3??

Tournaments need rounded/balanced lists to combat a multitude of armies. Saying they should have accounted for specifically "deleting" a full squad of boyz per turn would just leave them susceptible to the next table that is running more tanks and high toughness models -- when really, the game should just be played longer than 3 turns, you know, because 5-6 turns is what is expected and factored into the gameplay mechanics....

It's almost like skew lists are a thing this edition. It's almost like that's a problem people have been citing from the beginning of the edition, thanks to detachments.

It's almost like TAC lists can't build a list that's strong enough to actually take all comers, since a 50/50 split of anti-infantry/anti-tank isn't strong enough to take 100/0 or a 0/100 split of infantry/armor.

Oh wait, it is like that.

No one cares about orks winning or list building.... seriously.... why are people so blind???

Only thing that matters is a crap tactic with boring games with 0 votes for gaming won the gt. Massive shame.

And playing 2 or 3 turns does matter... some armies are just charging at that point. Some are just chewing through the fat of the horde... it takes numbers guys!!!

Wise up people defending the ork player (mc slowplay) as there isn't one.

He has his trophy but with the holistic view and all the possible armies you can face then 5 turns are defo needed to see who the victor is... not who manages to clock watch well....!!!!
To site a main point yet again....

Turn1.... I get first blood.
I go for a drink n a massive poo
I think What To charge n stuff for 2 hours!.

I win.

Total joke but same as what won by just less masked. ( id probably get more kill points than him though lol)

 Togusa wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't know if this was eternal war, I generally don't follow non ITC events. But missions solve much of these problems. GW should write better missions. In ITC you can't just plop 120 bodies on 4 objectives and wait out the win, because scoring is progressive and you won't auto-win this way.

And seriously, people saying we need clocks, or we need to lower points, a better solution is to just up the cost of chaff models, or set a model count limit of 100 (for example) at 2000 points.

I would still like to see 1500 become the standard for major events, forcing players to pick and choose rather than bringing all of the toys is good in my opinion. This is where a player's skill shines rather than the player who can buy the most cans of vanilla spam.

But, ITC missions are quite dynamic and entertaining. So you are 100% correct on that.

Absolutely

I try and play 1500 as often as possible

I was there and I had over 100 models. I finished every game with 30 minutes to an hour to spare and all my games went to turn 7! Except the game I played on Stream because we started late and had to be briefed before we began.

I never spoke to or watched the ork player. I just wasn't interested. But I did notice he was always the last person playing in the hall every round.

GW have recently made their GT 1750 points, coincidence? I think not.

fe40k wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I also happen to think that if his opponents didn't bring enough firepower to delete a unit of orks a turn, then that's on them. My usual opponents can quite easily wipe out 30 orks in one round of shooting.

That means at least 90 of these boys could have been deleted by turn 3.

So if they couldn't counter his army, how's that his fault? I'm fairly sure that in competitive tournaments the point is to win. Want to complain that someone won but didn't conform to your play style or what you thinks fair? Well, sorry but that happens.
Maybe bring a few more heavy bolter and assault cannons and a little less elite killing gubbins.

So the answer is that you must bring an army capable of tabling a horde army by turn 3??

Tournaments need rounded/balanced lists to combat a multitude of armies. Saying they should have accounted for specifically "deleting" a full squad of boyz per turn would just leave them susceptible to the next table that is running more tanks and high toughness models -- when really, the game should just be played longer than 3 turns, you know, because 5-6 turns is what is expected and factored into the gameplay mechanics....

It's almost like skew lists are a thing this edition. It's almost like that's a problem people have been citing from the beginning of the edition, thanks to detachments.

It's almost like TAC lists can't build a list that's strong enough to actually take all comers, since a 50/50 split of anti-infantry/anti-tank isn't strong enough to take 100/0 or a 0/100 split of infantry/armor.

Oh wait, it is like that.

This is wrong. Credible discussion has focused around all lists having trouble handling hordes. TAC lists can absolutely take enough to handle virtually any other kind of skew list we've seen so far. Hordes have been and remain a problem since the beginning.

7th actually had much more problems in terms of skew lists (all AV13+, all indirect artillery fire with screens, Psychic Deathstars, e.t.c.).

Detachments have nothing to do with why hordes are problematic. Hordes are problematic because we don't yet have enough accessible volume of fire to deal with them and because horde players play way too slowly by and large whether it's intentional or not.

My FLGS is going to be switching to 1750 to increase likelihood of finishing turn 5. So I hope this really catches on. Personally I wouldn't mind getting back down to 1,500 but 1,750 is a step in the right direction.

 zedsdead wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I'm sorry but at the moment all I can see are people complaining that a different style of army and tactic won and are looking for ways to make their own play style and tactics top drawer again.

The guy won without breaking any rules, but because it's orks and they're supposedly a trash index army "just for fun" all the power gamers are throwing a strop and want new rules and changes to stop this outrageous "cheating".

Orks always have to play to the objectives of the game to even stand a chance of winning, that's what this guy did. So what if he didn't slay the warlord or only killed a third of the opponents army? If that's what you think should win the game then have pure kill points and nothing else.

I'm with you. They all sound like daddies special girl who lost the beauty contest to a commoner. The guys army looked cool, everyone is just presuming he played scummy from rumours and people who lost... it would be like asking the losing football team what they thought of the guys who won.

Wow... so you dont agree with people. You call them snowflakes. Jerk Move on your part.

The facts speak for themselves. I dont see much rumour mongering .. other than calling out a guy winning a Tournament and never going past turn 3.

I dont agree with that.. and others dont as well... doesnt make us a special girl.. shame on you in all honesty for name calling.
You dont.. ill leave it at that.

You saying I'm a jerk? You're all accusing this guy of out right cheating when currently I have seen no evidence to suggest this was the case! You're dragging his name through the dirt and all you have is rumours and people (who weren't even there!) claiming things they don't even know about. We have no idea if he slow played. It could be people so used to auto winning in 40k that they don't understand it when a guy actually stops to think about his next move... it's clear the guy was playing for objectives and had some really tough decisions to make and so probably took a bit of time to make them (this is what I have been told by people who were actually at the game watching). So before you accuses me of beings the jerk I think you should all stop you witch hunt and realise the damage you are doing to this guys reputation based on pure rumours and responses from the people who lost.

This is exsactly what is happening right now.

As far as I'm concerned if you are using more time than your opponent and the game is only going to 3 turns then spending any time "stops to think about his next move... it's clear the guy was playing for objectives and had some really tough decisions to make and so probably took a bit of time to make them " is unacceptable. The nice thing about chess clock play is you don't have to feel bad about going into the tank over a decision. Why do the players accept games regularly going 3 turns? Is that what they want? I'm puzzled because I don't understand how tournies in which you often only get 1/2 a game survive?

 lolman1c wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I'm sorry but at the moment all I can see are people complaining that a different style of army and tactic won and are looking for ways to make their own play style and tactics top drawer again.

The guy won without breaking any rules, but because it's orks and they're supposedly a trash index army "just for fun" all the power gamers are throwing a strop and want new rules and changes to stop this outrageous "cheating".

Orks always have to play to the objectives of the game to even stand a chance of winning, that's what this guy did. So what if he didn't slay the warlord or only killed a third of the opponents army? If that's what you think should win the game then have pure kill points and nothing else.

I'm with you. They all sound like daddies special girl who lost the beauty contest to a commoner. The guys army looked cool, everyone is just presuming he played scummy from rumours and people who lost... it would be like asking the losing football team what they thought of the guys who won.

Wow... so you dont agree with people. You call them snowflakes. Jerk Move on your part.

The facts speak for themselves. I dont see much rumour mongering .. other than calling out a guy winning a Tournament and never going past turn 3.

I dont agree with that.. and others dont as well... doesnt make us a special girl.. shame on you in all honesty for name calling.
You dont.. ill leave it at that.

You saying I'm a jerk? You're all accusing this guy of out right cheating when currently I have seen no evidence to suggest this was the case! You're dragging his name through the dirt and all you have is rumours and people (who weren't even there!) claiming things they don't even know about. We have no idea if he slow played. It could be people so used to auto winning in 40k that they don't understand it when a guy actually stops to think about his next move... it's clear the guy was playing for objectives and had some really tough decisions to make and so probably took a bit of time to make them (this is what I have been told by people who were actually at the game watching). So before you accuses me of beings the jerk I think you should all stop you witch hunt and realise the damage you are doing to this guys reputation based on pure rumours and responses from the people who lost.

This is exsactly what is happening right now.

I never called you a jerk... I said you calling people names was a jerk move. Calling people snowflakes and special girls... Check. Screaming about " witch hunts"... Check. Yea I know your kind.... I'm not going to engage.

We organized a tournament at 1500, with a boatload of scenery and LoS terrain (that was in March, before the big Faq). It worked pretty well as solution to a lot of skewed list (not all of them, but quite a few...)
Happy to see that GW is catching up.

Never argue with success.

I think behaving and talking like a jerk makes you a jerk. How are we all behaving and talking

Scarecrow20 wrote:
No one cares about orks winning or list building.... seriously.... why are people so blind???

Only thing that matters is a crap tactic with boring games with 0 votes for gaming won the gt. Massive shame.

And playing 2 or 3 turns does matter... some armies are just charging at that point. Some are just chewing through the fat of the horde... it takes numbers guys!!!

Wise up people defending the ork player (mc slowplay) as there isn't one.

He has his trophy but with the holistic view and all the possible armies you can face then 5 turns are defo needed to see who the victor is... not who manages to clock watch well....!!!!
To site a main point yet again....

Turn1.... I get first blood.
I go for a drink n a massive poo
I think What To charge n stuff for 2 hours!.

I win.

Total joke but same as what won by just less masked. ( id probably get more kill points than him though lol)

Ding ding ding !..... we have a winner


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cybtroll wrote:
We organized a tournament at 1500, with a boatload of scenery and LoS terrain (that was in March, before the big Faq). It worked pretty well as solution to a lot of skewed list (not all of them, but quite a few...)
Happy to see that GW is catching up.

I dont necessarily agree with this assesment... However if your going to try to reduce play time by reducing points. Yea 1500 would be the point where i think it could make a difference. 1850, 1750 nah..

Think about it. What is a GK,SM,BA,DA,Cust,Nec,Tau,Chaos MeQ, ect Player going to remove to make a difference in game time play ? A dread ? Big tank ? These armies already bring smaller more elite units to the table.

I found that the vast majority of games were ending naturally at the London GT this weekend just gone. There were some games that got timed out in each round (one of mine did for example) but these were definitely in the minority and low count.

Going back to Orks for a minute, my game 1 ended early on turn 4. The table next to me was Orks vs Sisters of Battle and Custodes. When the 30 minutes left call came the Imperial player turned to me and just said “turn 2….”. They didn’t even get to finish turn 2 in the end. The Ork player took over 1.5 hours on his first turn alone, and I could see in other games why. Even when he was taking his saving throws everything was “um and erred” about. The Ork player then tried to “math hammer” the rest of the game out, to which he got countered with Custode math hammer being better than Ork math hammer – and the fact that the game was over, so it meant it was over. The Ork player lost as a result of this.

This is something that horde players certainly need to start to look at cutting out.

However, other Ork players seemed to be naturally finishing their games, often with 30-60 mins to spare – depending on matchup.

People need to get excuses such as “too many points”, “not enough time”, “too many models” out of their heads. Unfortunately, when at events, you have to look at the overall picture.

Yes, some armies are slower to play and some matchups even more so. But when 90-95% of tables are finishing on time – often early, the standard excuses don’t hold much weight. This was a 365 man event, so there were literally hundreds more “completed” games than “timed out” games.

what are the official numbers on that. Where are they posted.

Kdash wrote:
I found that the vast majority of games were ending naturally at the London GT this weekend just gone. There were some games that got timed out in each round (one of mine did for example) but these were definitely in the minority and low count.

Going back to Orks for a minute, my game 1 ended early on turn 4. The table next to me was Orks vs Sisters of Battle and Custodes. When the 30 minutes left call came the Imperial player turned to me and just said “turn 2….”. They didn’t even get to finish turn 2 in the end. The Ork player took over 1.5 hours on his first turn alone, and I could see in other games why. Even when he was taking his saving throws everything was “um and erred” about. The Ork player then tried to “math hammer” the rest of the game out, to which he got countered with Custode math hammer being better than Ork math hammer – and the fact that the game was over, so it meant it was over. The Ork player lost as a result of this.

This is something that horde players certainly need to start to look at cutting out.

However, other Ork players seemed to be naturally finishing their games, often with 30-60 mins to spare – depending on matchup.

People need to get excuses such as “too many points”, “not enough time”, “too many models” out of their heads. Unfortunately, when at events, you have to look at the overall picture.

Yes, some armies are slower to play and some matchups even more so. But when 90-95% of tables are finishing on time – often early, the standard excuses don’t hold much weight. This was a 365 man event, so there were literally hundreds more “completed” games than “timed out” games.

I was that sisters player! It was ridiculous, a 3 hour game and I played for under half an hour of it. Even told him to do 10 minute turns after turn one and tried to time it but he couldnt even move half his boyz in that time.
Should have brought my chess clock but figured people wouldn't try to slow play me. Lesson learned!

The funny thing is, my other army is a 210 boy tide, so I know it's not hard to get a game done in 3 hours.

If you can't finish your first turn in under half an hour, play better.

I would suggest that it's very easy to finish your turn in 30 minutes, when you only have a handful of models and units, only need to shuffle around in your bubble to get Los, cast some psychic buffs and shoot.

Much harder if you play a more tactically demanding army that has a hand in every phase and must actually get across the table, slowly, to engage the enemy in combat (itself a much tougher proposition), is likely to die by the bucket load, has a handful of index strategems, still hasn't had a codex, has enemies and strategies designed to deliberately counter your only strategy, has virtually no re-rolls, few buffs, and requires careful handling to win. If you can't beat that, then I'm sorry, but you're probably not as good a player as you think you are.

How hard would it be to chuck in some anti-horde shooting? Most armies can put out a bucket load, but if all you do is setup to counter big stuff, don't be surprised if people come at you with lists that love ops with Lascannons and plasma.

It's all to easy to whinge about slow play when all you have to do is shuffle about, kill stuff and try and dash for objectives at the end. If you're used to playing on easy mode, and come up against something different, then that's when you find out how good you are.

As an aside, what on earth are you lot going to be like when orks do finally get a codex, and it turns out to be half decent? Write a letter of complaint to GW that all the orks are ruining your tournaments? Ork players have been up against it for years, and their players know how to use kunnin to win, in the rules. They're also, by and large, much less salty when they lose. With a decent codex you may see orks stomping tournaments a lot more, especially if you don't pack in some anti horde elements and refuse to deal with it.

Anyway, this guy won fair and square in the end, and if he didn't, he'd have been booted out.

Just my two cents.

It's clear the guy was taking the piss. I'd have flipped the table on him.

 r_squared wrote:
I would suggest that it's very easy to finish your turn in 30 minutes, when you only have a handful of models and units, only need to shuffle around in your bubble to get Los, cast some psychic buffs and shoot.

Much harder if you play a more tactically demanding army that has a hand in every phase and must actually get across the table, slowly, to engage the enemy in combat (itself a much tougher proposition), is likely to die by the bucket load, has a handful of index strategems, still hasn't had a codex, has enemies and strategies designed to deliberately counter your only strategy, has virtually no re-rolls, few buffs, and requires careful handling to win. If you can't beat that, then I'm sorry, but you're probably not as good a player as you think you are.

How hard would it be to chuck in some anti-horde shooting? Most armies can put out a bucket load, but if all you do is setup to counter big stuff, don't be surprised if people come at you with lists that love ops with Lascannons and plasma.

It's all to easy to whinge about slow play when all you have to do is shuffle about, kill stuff and try and dash for objectives at the end. If you're used to playing on easy mode, and come up against something different, then that's when you find out how good you are.

As an aside, what on earth are you lot going to be like when orks do finally get a codex, and it turns out to be half decent? Write a letter of complaint to GW that all the orks are ruining your tournaments? Ork players have been up against it for years, and their players know how to use kunnin to win, in the rules. They're also, by and large, much less salty when they lose. With a decent codex you may see orks stomping tournaments a lot more, especially if you don't pack in some anti horde elements and refuse to deal with it.

Anyway, this guy won fair and square in the end, and if he didn't, he'd have been booted out.

Just my two cents.

I've met 3 competitive ork players this edition, and none of them have any issue playing in an acceptable time limit. None of them "average" 600 points of kill per game. You cannot pin this on the army.

 r_squared wrote:
I would suggest that it's very easy to finish your turn in 30 minutes, when you only have a handful of models and units, only need to shuffle around in your bubble to get Los, cast some psychic buffs and shoot.

Much harder if you play a more tactically demanding army that has a hand in every phase and must actually get across the table, slowly, to engage the enemy in combat (itself a much tougher proposition), is likely to die by the bucket load, has a handful of index strategems, still hasn't had a codex, has enemies and strategies designed to deliberately counter your only strategy, has virtually no re-rolls, few buffs, and requires careful handling to win. If you can't beat that, then I'm sorry, but you're probably not as good a player as you think you are.

Nonsense. Earlier this year I had a game where I fielded 4000 points of orks. We had limited time per turn so we could get the game finished in one afternoon. We had 45 minutes for the first two turns, 30 minutes for all following turns.
When time was up, you finished your current phase, but after that were not allowed to make any active decisions during the rest of your turn (no charging, shooting, casting powers or moving, no selecting units to fight). The three most expensive units in my army were a unit of 4 rokkit kanz, 15 lootaz and Ghazgkhull Thrakka himself, so no super-heavies or big blobs of nobz/MANz to move a lot of points in little time.

It took me 20 minutes to deploy everything without sweat and my first turn was 50 minutes, second turn was 40 minutes and all other turns were finished in less than 20 due to large portions of the army being dead (you should have seen the other guy).
Most of an ork army is not going to be shooting or charging during the first turn, so what the heck are those people doing taking 1.5 hours? I literally played two turns with twice the army in the same time.

If you can't manage to finish a turn playing 2000 points of orks within 45 minutes, you are a slow player and need to learn to speed up.

Buy movement trays. Get a combat gauge to speed up pile ins, spacing and combat. Get a 9" stick to measure deep strikes and KFF. Get a 6" stick to measure auras. Learn to fast-roll dice. Practice setting up models after Da Jump. Know every single rule in your army - you should never need to check a single ork statline during a match. Take notes for things you keep forgetting. Bookmark your index. Know when to use stratagems, if you start to mathhammer DakkaDakkaDakka for lootaz in the middle of a game, you're doing it wrong.
- or -
Stay out of timed events. Don't waste people's time.

How hard would it be to chuck in some anti-horde shooting? Most armies can put out a bucket load, but if all you do is setup to counter big stuff, don't be surprised if people come at you with lists that love ops with Lascannons and plasma.

So, you are suggesting that every army should be able to delete 210 boyz in the first three turns? Don't you think that even if that was possible, it would be kind of a problem for the game?

It's all to easy to whinge about slow play when all you have to do is shuffle about, kill stuff and try and dash for objectives at the end. If you're used to playing on easy mode, and come up against something different, then that's when you find out how good you are.

I'm an ork player. I'm perfectly aware how much less time it takes to play any army that's not a melee focused horde. Literally nothing about that is related to the skill needed to operate the army.

As an aside, what on earth are you lot going to be like when orks do finally get a codex, and it turns out to be half decent?

Hopefully I'll no longer be playing green tide.

Write a letter of complaint to GW that all the orks are ruining your tournaments? Ork players have been up against it for years, and their players know how to use kunnin to win, in the rules.

The enemy player might as well kill one of your units and then leave the table for the rest of the round because he scored first blood, leaving you to sit there for 2.5h. That's "kunnin", right?

With a decent codex you may see orks stomping tournaments a lot more, especially if you don't pack in some anti horde elements and refuse to deal with it.

Funny how hordes are all over the tournament scene. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Anyway, this guy won fair and square in the end, and if he didn't, he'd have been booted out.

You mean like the guy who helped his opponent set up his terminators and then claimed he was no longer able to move?
He won, alright, but there was nothing fair about it.

 djones520 wrote:


I've met 3 competitive ork players this edition, and none of them have any issue playing in an acceptable time limit. None of them "average" 600 points of kill per game. You cannot pin this on the army.

I agree . and i have played against enough horde Ork and AM armies to know that its usually not the Army but the player.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoiler:

 r_squared wrote:
I would suggest that it's very easy to finish your turn in 30 minutes, when you only have a handful of models and units, only need to shuffle around in your bubble to get Los, cast some psychic buffs and shoot.

Much harder if you play a more tactically demanding army that has a hand in every phase and must actually get across the table, slowly, to engage the enemy in combat (itself a much tougher proposition), is likely to die by the bucket load, has a handful of index strategems, still hasn't had a codex, has enemies and strategies designed to deliberately counter your only strategy, has virtually no re-rolls, few buffs, and requires careful handling to win. If you can't beat that, then I'm sorry, but you're probably not as good a player as you think you are.

Nonsense. Earlier this year I had a game where I fielded 4000 points of orks. We had limited time per turn so we could get the game finished in one afternoon. We had 45 minutes for the first two turns, 30 minutes for all following turns.
When time was up, you finished your current phase, but after that were not allowed to make any active decisions during the rest of your turn (no charging, shooting, casting powers or moving, no selecting units to fight). The three most expensive units in my army were a unit of 4 rokkit kanz, 15 lootaz and Ghazgkhull Thrakka himself, so no super-heavies or big blobs of nobz/MANz to move a lot of points in little time.

It took me 20 minutes to deploy everything without sweat and my first turn was 50 minutes, second turn was 40 minutes and all other turns were finished in less than 20 due to large portions of the army being dead (you should have seen the other guy).
Most of an ork army is not going to be shooting or charging during the first turn, so what the heck are those people doing taking 1.5 hours? I literally played two turns with twice the army in the same time.

If you can't manage to finish a turn playing 2000 points of orks within 45 minutes, you are a slow player and need to learn to speed up.

Buy movement trays. Get a combat gauge to speed up pile ins, spacing and combat. Get a 9" stick to measure deep strikes and KFF. Get a 6" stick to measure auras. Learn to fast-roll dice. Practice setting up models after Da Jump. Know every single rule in your army - you should never need to check a single ork statline during a match. Take notes for things you keep forgetting. Bookmark your index. Know when to use stratagems, if you start to mathhammer DakkaDakkaDakka for lootaz in the middle of a game, you're doing it wrong.
- or -
Stay out of timed events. Don't waste people's time.

How hard would it be to chuck in some anti-horde shooting? Most armies can put out a bucket load, but if all you do is setup to counter big stuff, don't be surprised if people come at you with lists that love ops with Lascannons and plasma.

So, you are suggesting that every army should be able to delete 210 boyz in the first three turns? Don't you think that even if that was possible, it would be kind of a problem for the game?

It's all to easy to whinge about slow play when all you have to do is shuffle about, kill stuff and try and dash for objectives at the end. If you're used to playing on easy mode, and come up against something different, then that's when you find out how good you are.

I'm an ork player. I'm perfectly aware how much less time it takes to play any army that's not a melee focused horde. Literally nothing about that is related to the skill needed to operate the army.

As an aside, what on earth are you lot going to be like when orks do finally get a codex, and it turns out to be half decent?

Hopefully I'll no longer be playing green tide.

Write a letter of complaint to GW that all the orks are ruining your tournaments? Ork players have been up against it for years, and their players know how to use kunnin to win, in the rules.

The enemy player might as well kill one of your units and then leave the table for the rest of the round because he scored first blood, leaving you to sit there for 2.5h. That's "kunnin", right?

With a decent codex you may see orks stomping tournaments a lot more, especially if you don't pack in some anti horde elements and refuse to deal with it.

Funny how hordes are all over the tournament scene. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Anyway, this guy won fair and square in the end, and if he didn't, he'd have been booted out.

You mean like the guy who helped his opponent set up his terminators and then claimed he was no longer able to move?
He won, alright, but there was nothing fair about it.

I think you're exaggerating slightly for effect with some of this. For a start, I never said anyone should be able to kill 210 orks in 3 turns, I've only mentioned killing a blob of 30 a turn. This guy took 120 Boyz I believe, meaning any tac army that had considered how to deal with hordes could have crippled this guys ability to objective camp.

Anyone can use techniques to speed up play, I used to play tournaments in 7th with the green tide and used many of the techniques you suggest, and some games finished after 5 turns, some finished earlier, but I wasn't obligated too play like that.
It's also entirely possible that the reason this guy was umming and aahing before playing his moves is because orks require a lot more thought to play than a custodes list. As you are well aware, orks are much less forgiving than most other armies out there, especially these souped up, re-roll factories.

I think theres just a little too much malice being thrown at this guy, and a resistance for others to look at how they play the game. Many have set up their elite soup to take out other elite soup, and are salty that a mono army horde list is able to beat that because "it's not fair".

Like I said, build some anti horde into your list and this problem is solved, simply you cannot objective camp if you have no Boyz left to do it with,

If his deployment and first turn take up about an hour and a half then your ability to kill a unit a turn really won't help in the game going the full distance.

Arguably custodes movement is more crucial as every model lost or not performing has a far greater impact on the list. You make a less than optimal move with a boyz squad and lose a few more bodies, doesn't really change what you were doing.

120 models is no big deal, I do that with my Nids regularly. I know AM players with similar model counts who can play a full game in the time limit. He only played 2-3 turns because he only wanted to play 2-3 turns as any more would have likely cost him the win. He just runs onto objectives, gets shot twice and polishes his dice until times up.

Stop ignoring players who can and do play full games with horde lists, this shows it can be done and players who regularly don't are either inexperienced, too lazy to get faster or deliberately slow playing. The importance here is regularly - a slow game once in a while is different to playing 5 on the trot that don't go to the end. As the player here is evidently a veteran, you can discount the first option.

 r_squared wrote:
I think you're exaggerating slightly for effect with some of this. For a start, I never said anyone should be able to kill 210 orks in 3 turns, I've only mentioned killing a blob of 30 a turn. This guy took 120 Boyz I believe, meaning any tac army that had considered how to deal with hordes could have crippled this guys ability to objective camp.

He also had pain boyz and KFFs. Killing a unit of 30 boyz protected by those in one turn takes 121 BS3+ S5-7 shots. That's ten twin assault cannons, 15 twin scatter lasers or 60 warbikes. Most armies, including orks, simply cannot do that.

As you are well aware, orks are much less forgiving than most other armies out there, especially these souped up, re-roll factories.

Which is not related to the ork army at all, but solely to its low power level. If you operated a kan wall in 5th, an army that plays very similar to current competitive lists, you could basically do whatever and still face-roll your opponent to death.
There really aren't a lot of decisions to make in his army. Since there is no cover in 8th, all you need to do when moving is keep boyz in buff range, shoot tank bustas at targets that are most dangerous to your game plan (anti-horde!) and KMK don't even move. The only thing that really needs decision making is what unit to jump where. Even if he thought five minutes about each jump, he wouldn't have taken as long as he did.

I think theres just a little too much malice being thrown at this guy, and a resistance for others to look at how they play the game. Many have set up their elite soup to take out other elite soup, and are salty that a mono army horde list is able to beat that because "it's not fair".

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Multiple people have already stated that other orks with higher model counts, as well as a nurgle horde player had no issue finishing their games.

The issue is not orks or hordes. The issue is player exploiting tournament rules to avoid getting wiped out. A Grey Knight player could do the exact same thing.

Like I said, build some anti horde into your list and this problem is solved, simply you cannot objective camp if you have no Boyz left to do it with,

Proven to be false above. Enemy armies have plenty anti-horde to fight them - just not in 3 turns. If the game had gone to turn 4, the guy would have lost the tyranid game he walked away from, because he obviously brought enough anti-horde to kill him in 4 turns.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
I think you're exaggerating slightly for effect with some of this. For a start, I never said anyone should be able to kill 210 orks in 3 turns, I've only mentioned killing a blob of 30 a turn. This guy took 120 Boyz I believe, meaning any tac army that had considered how to deal with hordes could have crippled this guys ability to objective camp.

He also had pain boyz and KFFs. Killing a unit of 30 boyz protected by those in one turn takes 121 BS3+ S5-7 shots. That's ten twin assault cannons, 15 twin scatter lasers or 60 warbikes. Most armies, including orks, simply cannot do that.

Did you factor in morale? An opponent doesn't have to kill all 30 dead, just enough to wipe out any chance of passing morale. At strength 4 you need about 100 shots to kill enough to make a morale check devastating to the unit, that has both an invulnerable save and a kff. At strength 5 that drops to 70 shots. If he doesn't have those buffs, then strength 4 shots drop down to about 50 shots, and strength 5 down to about 40 shots. That's much more manageable for an army that can focus fire a unit a turn.

Those kffs would need to be covering pretty much everywhere, and how many PainBoyz did he have? One for each blob? In a perfect storm it would take an overwhelming amount of firepower to kill those Boyz, but most of the time they may not have that cover, and a focused attack will finish them off, or render them useless very quickly.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
As you are well aware, orks are much less forgiving than most other armies out there, especially these souped up, re-roll factories.

Which is not related to the ork army at all, but solely to its low power level. If you operated a kan wall in 5th, an army that plays very similar to current competitive lists, you could basically do whatever and still face-roll your opponent to death.
There really aren't a lot of decisions to make in his army. Since there is no cover in 8th, all you need to do when moving is keep boyz in buff range, shoot tank bustas at targets that are most dangerous to your game plan (anti-horde!) and KMK don't even move. The only thing that really needs decision making is what unit to jump where. Even if he thought five minutes about each jump, he wouldn't have taken as long as he did.

I think you're doing Ork players a diservice here. Keeping an army as large and fragile as orks within their buff zones can be tricky, and keeping tankbustas alive long enough to get in range and be of use is an art form.
Tonight I took my admech list out for an airing and absolutely destroyed my raven guard opponent, whilst moving my army no more than 12" in total. My biggest decision was which of the many useful strategems and punchy shooting I would use to obliterate his units with. Had I taken my orks, it would have been a very different game, and I would have to engage my brain a considerable amount more to achieve the same effect.
I may not be as good a player as you, but I know my ork army quite well now, and every time I throw it down, I have to think very hard about every single move I make, because a mis-step at any stage will lose me the game. With my ad-mech, I just have to screen, stay out of assault, shoot his most threatening units, and grab some objectives. It is 40k in easy mode.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

I think theres just a little too much malice being thrown at this guy, and a resistance for others to look at how they play the game. Many have set up their elite soup to take out other elite soup, and are salty that a mono army horde list is able to beat that because "it's not fair".

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Multiple people have already stated that other orks with higher model counts, as well as a nurgle horde player had no issue finishing their games.

The issue is not orks or hordes. The issue is player exploiting tournament rules to avoid getting wiped out. A Grey Knight player could do the exact same thing.

What is wrong with exploiting the rules to win? This is supposed to be a competitive tournament, not a fething tea party. Dress it up however you like but the simple answer is this guy did not break any rules, he played the game as it is laid out and he won. People on here are salty because they don't like how he won, well, I'm afraid that tough gak really. Is it fair that other armies get all sorts of lovely bonuses whilst orks still have an index? Yes it is, because those are the rules as of the moment. Did this guy whinge that he only had an index army? No he didn't, he worked out a way to beat his opponents, and he did so fair and square.
I'd suggest that if you don't like this, then maybe the top level tournament scene is not for you, it's certainly not for me. However, there will always be people who will play to the rules as written and win.

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

Like I said, build some anti horde into your list and this problem is solved, simply you cannot objective camp if you have no Boyz left to do it with,

Proven to be false above. Enemy armies have plenty anti-horde to fight them - just not in 3 turns. If the game had gone to turn 4, the guy would have lost the tyranid game he walked away from, because he obviously brought enough anti-horde to kill him in 4 turns.

Again, not his problem. He wanted to win, there was nothing in the rules forcing him to play the game on his opponents terms, so why should he?

fe40k wrote:
And to all the people complaining "but he didn't play the next round when the judge offered it to him!" - that's on the judge for that one; he was given a legal opportunity to not play the next round, and he took it. Most likely because taking the extra round might cost him the game - don't get mad that he played the rules legally, get mad that the judge didn't enforce +1 turn, since there was extra time.

The expectation - and this should be detailed in the rules pack (I haven't looked to check) - is that unless one player is tabled or concedes, the game continues to the end of the round, with some sort of process then in place to ensure each player has completed the same number of terms.

If a judge told this guy they could start playing turn 4, and he refused, the judge should have taken it as the Ork player conceding. No ifs, buts or maybes - play the game, or concede defeat.

 r_squared wrote:
Did you factor in morale? An opponent doesn't have to kill all 30 dead, just enough to wipe out any chance of passing morale. At strength 4 you need about 100 shots to kill enough to make a morale check devastating to the unit, that has both an invulnerable save and a kff. At strength 5 that drops to 70 shots. If he doesn't have those buffs, then strength 4 shots drop down to about 50 shots, and strength 5 down to about 40 shots. That's much more manageable for an army that can focus fire a unit a turn.

100 shots are 18.52 casualties, let's round that to 19. With ld 30 you borrowed from the mob you are next to, you have 11 boyz left. If no mob is nearby, but his warboss is, you have 8-10 boyz left. If the mob is on its own for some reason but he spends 2CP (which he should) he has 11 boyz left.
Worst case 8 boyz are plenty to hold an objective.
So, yes, I factored in moral. Since he had so much time to think everything over, there is no reason to lose more than d3 boyz to morale.

Those kffs would need to be covering pretty much everywhere, and how many PainBoyz did he have? One for each blob? In a perfect storm it would take an overwhelming amount of firepower to kill those Boyz, but most of the time they may not have that cover, and a focused attack will finish them off, or render them useless very quickly.

Four mobs of boyz, two KFF, two pain boyz. There is no reason outside of playing error not to have both auras on all mobs for the first two turns.

I think you're doing Ork players a diservice here. Keeping an army as large and fragile as orks within their buff zones can be tricky,

No it's not. All buffs but KFF can be conga-lined to. KFF is a huge area and either you decide to leave that area or you decide to stay in it. Everything else just sitting down models within 9".

and keeping tankbustas alive long enough to get in range and be of use is an art form.

Art? Hardly. Put them out of LOS or assume they will get shot. Anything else is your opponent's choice. And since they just shoot 24" from inside their transport, any rhino with melee troops inside is more difficult to operate.

Tonight I took my admech list out for an airing and absolutely destroyed my raven guard opponent, whilst moving my army no more than 12" in total. My biggest decision was which of the many useful strategems and punchy shooting I would use to obliterate his units with. Had I taken my orks, it would have been a very different game, and I would have to engage my brain a considerable amount more to achieve the same effect.
I may not be as good a player as you, but I know my ork army quite well now, and every time I throw it down, I have to think very hard about every single move I make, because a mis-step at any stage will lose me the game. With my ad-mech, I just have to screen, stay out of assault, shoot his most threatening units, and grab some objectives. It is 40k in easy mode.

I'll tell you from playing orks at a time when they didn't suck as bad as they do now: Just move everything forward, assault everything you can, shoot the choppy, chop the shooty. The most difficult part of 5th edition was keeping leaf blower's manticores from shooting with by shooting them with your lootas and deff koptas (boy does that sound silly in 8th).
The only reason orks feel so difficult to play now is because they lack the power to just table the enemy like your ad mech did. If you could just move everything towards that same raven guard opponent and kill whatever you need, there would be a lot less thinking involved.

What is wrong with exploiting the rules to win?

Game rules? No. Event rules? Yes.

This is supposed to be a competitive tournament, not a fething tea party. Dress it up however you like but the simple answer is this guy did not break any rules, he played the game as it is laid out and he won. People on here are salty because they don't like how he won, well, I'm afraid that tough gak really.

So you also think that bribing every one of your opponent to concede would be ok as well? Because there are no rules against that either.
Before you cry about false analogies - this was an actual problem in MtG tournaments. People would just talk to their four opponent and offer them some part of the prize - since most of them had no chance at placing high, many agreed, resulting in some people going 4-0 and winning the tournament with every match being conceded to them.
Though I give to you that he still won the thing, but not fair and square at all. It's the fault of the TO's really. He should just have been DQ'ed after being told multiple times to play faster.

Is it fair that other armies get all sorts of lovely bonuses whilst orks still have an index?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes it is, because those are the rules as of the moment. Did this guy whinge that he only had an index army? No he didn't, he worked out a way to beat his opponents, and he did so fair and square.

You are mixing tournament and game rules. Tournament rules are not a rule set to find holes in. Tournament rules are not to be exploited or used to your advantage. Tournament rules are meant to reign people in that would not behave properly otherwise.
People that exploit loop holes in event rules are toxic to the community and need to be removed.

I'd suggest that if you don't like this, then maybe the top level tournament scene is not for you, it's certainly not for me. However, there will always be people who will play to the rules as written and win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship
Unsporting people should be called out and removed from the top level tournament scene.

Event rules are not part of the game. Play the game to win.

MC Slowplay is looking for a partner that enjoys long leisurely walks on a beach and also 40k games which last for hours but need not see a natural conclusion. After all, the best things in life are to be savoured in all its relaxed sweetness.

People who care about winning in a sporting way or believe that Orks can be played efficiently need not apply. Please do not spoil MC Slowplay's groove.

What is wrong with exploiting the rules to win?

Nothing so there would be nothing wrong with scoring First blood and then just stopping play? Why don't we just flip a coin to determine winners?

I can't wait until we get to the "score the first point and then take a three hour nap" meta.