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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's broken until you're allowed to have it apparently, according to Guard players anyway.
A few Guard players maybe. Sweeping generalisations just create a weird "us vs them" situation. Personally I like hordes of crazed cultists, gives me something to use The Emperor's holy lasguns on.
Thats the issue overall; Cultists have been toned down tremendously, so the points bump seems like the nail in the coffin. Guardsdudes have proven to be too cheap for what they do, yet they are left untouched... the balls
Probably because depending on who you ask Guardsmen do wildly different things.
Ask Guard players and they'll tell you that it's the mainstay infantry since Conscripts are trash, thematically and ruleswise, now and Scions are highly specialized Troops choices that basically get used solely as suicide troops.
Ask any soup player and "they're handy to have".
Trickstick wrote: Isn't the price point of cultists purely an internal balance issue? It doesn't really matter how they compare to Guardsmen, as you never have a choice between the two. What you have to compare them to is other choices in your own faction, and whether they are still worth it over them. External balance is done on a force level, where you compare what armies you can build against each other. For example, it doesn't really matter if a force has cheap troops and expensive tanks, or cheap tanks and expensive troops, when comparing that army to others. What matters is the the complete lists you can build with it, such as taking loads of troops or tanks because they are cheap.
Please note, I'm speaking more generally about internal vs external balance and am aware that there are probably many examples of bad external balance for Chaos. I just mean that comparing Guardsmen to Cultists in a vacuum isn't really how external balance works.
Points are supposed to be a universal measurement of how a unit performs on the tabletop. Making one faction pay a premium on a certain unit just because they have overpowered units in other areas is really bad game design. The fact that guardsmen are roughly equal to cultists and yet you have to pay 25% more for cultists is absolutely unacceptable IMO. If cultists are taken too often as opposed to CSM, then buff CSM, they aren't exactly overpowered. If cultists are too strong when buffed, nerf the auras or remove certain keywords from cultists etc. There are plenty of other levers you can pull for balance besides just raising points.
The point that I'm trying to make is that internal balance is useless without external balance (and vice versa).
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:19:04
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The issue with that logic is that 40k is a game with 2 players the opponent does get a say in whats happening meaning charging people points up front for actions they may or may not take or that their opponent can potentially prevent them from taking leads to the mess that is/was the necron codex, where you over pay for stuff your opponent can remove from you very easily.
If the strategum is the problem recost the strategums not the unit.
Well then concoct your own reason why cultists now cost 5 pts.
Whatever you come up with will work out just the same. I.E. you'll still pay that 5ppm & still wonder why exactly GW raised it.
If you could make multiple fearless units of 40 Guardsmen with better stats then conscripts I would agree that Guard should also cost 5 points per model.
Cultists do have very specific advantages that are pretty clear.
Ishagu wrote: If you could make multiple fearless units of 40 Guardsmen with better stats then conscripts I would agree that Guard should also cost 5 points per model.
Cultists do have very specific advantages that are pretty clear.
Some people would rather see those advantages removed and cultists stay at 4ppm. Multiple fearless units of 40 cultists sounds outside the purview of how that unit is supposed to function.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
Interestingly if cultists were 4pts, the value of the ToT strategem would be actually 6CP.
2CP for the ability to pick up and redeploy, standard post FAQ2 rates and:
4CP to account for the max you can regen you can get (39 cultists x 4pts = 156pts) with the value of CP being efficiently obtained at 36pts per CP (180 point IG battalion /5). 156/36 = 4.33.
So if it was 6CP and you can regen 36 from a squad of 40 you are getting "fair" value.
Not many things in the game generate free points like ToT does. It is all costed into the value of the base unit like Necrons and apothecary etc.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
Interestingly if cultists were 4pts, the value of the ToT strategem would be actually 6CP.
2CP for the ability to pick up and redeploy, standard post FAQ2 rates and:
4CP to account for the max you can regen you can get (39 cultists x 4pts = 156pts) with the value of CP being efficiently obtained at 36pts per CP (180 point IG battalion /5). 156/36 = 4.33.
So if it was 6CP and you can regen 36 from a squad of 40 you are getting "fair" value.
Not many things in the game generate free points like ToT does. It is all costed into the value of the base unit like Necrons and apothecary etc.
LOL you're not serious are you?
Nobody will revive any squad of 40 Cultists for 6CP when there are several other Strategems to use. You're being contradictory for the sake of it, otherwise you haven't a single concept of game balance in your thoughts.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
Interestingly if cultists were 4pts, the value of the ToT strategem would be actually 6CP.
2CP for the ability to pick up and redeploy, standard post FAQ2 rates and:
4CP to account for the max you can regen you can get (39 cultists x 4pts = 156pts) with the value of CP being efficiently obtained at 36pts per CP (180 point IG battalion /5). 156/36 = 4.33.
So if it was 6CP and you can regen 36 from a squad of 40 you are getting "fair" value.
Not many things in the game generate free points like ToT does. It is all costed into the value of the base unit like Necrons and apothecary etc.
LOL you're not serious are you?
Nobody will revive any squad of 40 Cultists for 6CP when there are several other Strategems to use. You're being contradictory for the sake of it, otherwise you haven't a single concept of game balance in your thoughts.
No gak, hence i said the CP cost is irrelevant. You've missed the point the ToT gives you free points over your opposition.
The game balance is getting models back but paying for it in the cultist base cost.
At 4 points the first thing to be removed would be ToT stratagem.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
Interestingly if cultists were 4pts, the value of the ToT strategem would be actually 6CP.
2CP for the ability to pick up and redeploy, standard post FAQ2 rates and:
4CP to account for the max you can regen you can get (39 cultists x 4pts = 156pts) with the value of CP being efficiently obtained at 36pts per CP (180 point IG battalion /5). 156/36 = 4.33.
So if it was 6CP and you can regen 36 from a squad of 40 you are getting "fair" value.
Not many things in the game generate free points like ToT does. It is all costed into the value of the base unit like Necrons and apothecary etc.
LOL you're not serious are you?
Nobody will revive any squad of 40 Cultists for 6CP when there are several other Strategems to use. You're being contradictory for the sake of it, otherwise you haven't a single concept of game balance in your thoughts.
No gak, hence i said the CP cost is irrelevant. You've missed the point the ToT gives you free points over your opposition.
The game balance is getting models back but paying for it in the cultist base cost.
At 4 points the first thing to be removed would be ToT stratagem.
At 5 points the 2CP cost for ToT becomes fair.
OR, since the Strategem is already limited to once per game and Cultists aren't a 5 point model, you make Tide Of Traitors 3CP and call it a day.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
Interestingly if cultists were 4pts, the value of the ToT strategem would be actually 6CP.
2CP for the ability to pick up and redeploy, standard post FAQ2 rates and:
4CP to account for the max you can regen you can get (39 cultists x 4pts = 156pts) with the value of CP being efficiently obtained at 36pts per CP (180 point IG battalion /5). 156/36 = 4.33.
So if it was 6CP and you can regen 36 from a squad of 40 you are getting "fair" value.
Not many things in the game generate free points like ToT does. It is all costed into the value of the base unit like Necrons and apothecary etc.
LOL you're not serious are you?
Nobody will revive any squad of 40 Cultists for 6CP when there are several other Strategems to use. You're being contradictory for the sake of it, otherwise you haven't a single concept of game balance in your thoughts.
No gak, hence i said the CP cost is irrelevant. You've missed the point the ToT gives you free points over your opposition.
The game balance is getting models back but paying for it in the cultist base cost.
At 4 points the first thing to be removed would be ToT stratagem.
At 5 points the 2CP cost for ToT becomes fair.
OR, since the Strategem is already limited to once per game and Cultists aren't a 5 point model, you make Tide Of Traitors 3CP and call it a day.
The point is even at 3CP you are gaining more than the 1CP increase. I showed you the maths reasoning behind it.
2CP to pick up and redeploy
1CP to possibly regen 156 points worth of models but more likely 120 points.
Would you be happy to set aside 120 points from your overall list to be able to use this stratagem? No i didnt think so.
EDIT: The precedent for this is the Guard codex whereby you can pay 2CP to regen a destroyed squad but you have to set aside the points for it. And it must be deployed in your own deployment zone. And this is a basic guard squad that even when buffed can barely scratch most enemy units. Cultists when buffed can do a lot more due to better stratagems and large unit sizes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 01:37:03
OR GW could make the similar guard stratagem decent.
I'm in the remove heretic astartes keyword from cultists so they only have ToT once per game and Mark stratagems, reduce squad size to 30, and go back down to 4ppm. Maybe make both kinds of marines worthwhile too eh?
30 non-deepstriking, non-fearless cultists shooting or fighting twice then recovering for 4-5CP would be about the worst you could face. Sounds nasty enough for casual and pathetic compared to poxwalkers. Reminds me there are a bunch of DG powers that are silly good on cultists which would also be removed from them.
Cultists probably shouldn't be the same price as Termagants. 5 ppm is probably a fair price for a model that does what they do, and I think issue is... why the hell weren't Guardsmen given the same treatment, they may not be a mirror unit but they are close enough that we can tell something is amiss.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Ishagu wrote: If you could make multiple fearless units of 40 Guardsmen with better stats then conscripts I would agree that Guard should also cost 5 points per model.
Cultists do have very specific advantages that are pretty clear.
Guard do have better stats than Cultists.
And they have some very specific advantages too: heavy and special weapons, orders, and access to Fearless through Commissars and Mental Fortitude (WC 4).
Cultists have the ability to go up to 40 to maximise Stratagems, but I think Orders more than weighs up for this. Guardsmen can still fire lasguns twice (Endless Cacophony), fall back and shoot or move double (Warptime), Take Aim for re-rolling 1s to hit, Bring It Down for re-rolling 1s to wound, Fix Bayonets for Fighting Again (Catachans with this is terrifying when buffed by Priests and Straken) etc. Also remember you can use Consolidate Squads to get bigger squads of Guard at the end of your Movement phase.
Then you have Overlapping Fields of Fire for +1 to hit for all Cadians etc. And then you have Relic of Lost Cadia and Vengeance for Cadia.
Cultists should be 50pt and can stand to lose VotLW, but Infantry Squads should also be 50pt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 09:20:58
Ishagu wrote: If you could make multiple fearless units of 40 Guardsmen with better stats then conscripts I would agree that Guard should also cost 5 points per model.
Cultists do have very specific advantages that are pretty clear.
Guard do have better stats than Cultists.
And they have some very specific advantages too: heavy and special weapons, orders, and access to Fearless through Commissars and Mental Fortitude (WC 4).
Cultists have the ability to go up to 40 to maximise Stratagems, but I think Orders more than weighs up for this. Guardsmen can still fire lasguns twice (Endless Cacophony), fall back and shoot or move double (Warptime), Take Aim for re-rolling 1s to hit, Bring It Down for re-rolling 1s to wound, Fix Bayonets for Fighting Again (Catachans with this is terrifying when buffed by Priests and Straken) etc. Also remember you can use Consolidate Squads to get bigger squads of Guard at the end of your Movement phase.
Then you have Overlapping Fields of Fire for +1 to hit for all Cadians etc. And then you have Relic of Lost Cadia and Vengeance for Cadia.
Cultists should be 50pt and can stand to lose VotLW, but Infantry Squads should also be 50pt.
This was covered in one of the many threads on Guard being undercosted, but the reality is that in this edition models are so few points the game can't point cost models accurately.
If you multiplied all points by say 10 you could probably get to a cultist being worth 47 maybe 48 point per model and Infantry Squads being 54-55ppm the problem is when you scale that back down by 10 you end up with 4.7 and 5.4 now clearly one is better than the other hence why it was worth more but when you compressor the scale this much you can't make a distinction between them, so at best IS and Cultists should be 5ppm or maybe 5 and 4 respectively but infantry squads being Cheapest is just very wrong.
In all honesty, cultists should have lost the "heretic astartes" keyword and gone the ork codex way on stratagems with them only getting to use them if they are mentioned like gretchin.
Making them go up 1pt is a bit of a lazy fix, but one hopes that this is rectified when they get to make codex 2.0 for each faction...
40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company
I think 1pt up is a great fix. They are still an excellent, durable unit for the price that provides amazing board control and is the best target for stratagems/buffs in the dex. Infantry Squads should be 5pts as well, but I feel that anyone saying Cultists aren't going to be played anymore is just kneejerking.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Dr. Mills wrote: In all honesty, cultists should have lost the "heretic astartes" keyword and gone the ork codex way on stratagems with them only getting to use them if they are mentioned like gretchin.
Making them go up 1pt is a bit of a lazy fix, but one hopes that this is rectified when they get to make codex 2.0 for each faction...
Yeah. This was the fix, and it got ignored. Buff stacking on cultists is the REAL problem here, not cultists themselves. Take away the option to combo buffs on them, and they stay what they were intended to be: Cheap throwaway troops.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 1pt up is a great fix. They are still an excellent, durable unit for the price that provides amazing board control and is the best target for stratagems/buffs in the dex. Infantry Squads should be 5pts as well, but I feel that anyone saying Cultists aren't going to be played anymore is just kneejerking.
I agree in the abstract. 5pts for a spammable wound, and in the Troop slot, is totally fine. If Loyalist Marines had access to them then they would see play in pure Marine lists.
The only issue really is the comparison to Guardsmen. And for me that's only really an issue because of soup. I think it's fine for different armies to have things at different costs, so they have different strengths and weaknesses. But soup just allows every Imperium player to sub in the game's best light Infantry.
I agree with the +1 point for Cultists
I think they should have lost their astartes keywords.
I also however think basic guardsmen should have gone up 1 point to differentiate them from conscripts, and to discourage loyal 32 bats.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
iGuy91 wrote: I agree with the +1 point for Cultists
I think they should have lost their astartes keywords.
I also however think basic guardsmen should have gone up 1 point to differentiate them from conscripts, and to discourage loyal 32 bats.
I doubt that a 30 point increase would effect a reduction in the usage of loyal 32.
It would've made the unit what it's actually worth though, compared to Cultists which are mathematically NOT a 5 point model and should've had Strategems repriced.
There's just simply no reason a unit should be priced around a Strategem rather than the other way around.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The increase is an illusion for anyone not trying to spam nothing but gud stuff. Its a clamshell game.
I just checked some of my fun lists and they are all around 50 ish pts cheaper even though most have at least 40 cultists.
What I am pleased about is defilers, huron, kharn, warpsmiths etc. The defilers in particular might actually make their way into some dread lists with their FW buddies now.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 1pt up is a great fix. They are still an excellent, durable unit for the price that provides amazing board control and is the best target for stratagems/buffs in the dex. Infantry Squads should be 5pts as well, but I feel that anyone saying Cultists aren't going to be played anymore is just kneejerking.
I agree in the abstract. 5pts for a spammable wound, and in the Troop slot, is totally fine. If Loyalist Marines had access to them then they would see play in pure Marine lists.
The only issue really is the comparison to Guardsmen. And for me that's only really an issue because of soup. I think it's fine for different armies to have things at different costs, so they have different strengths and weaknesses. But soup just allows every Imperium player to sub in the game's best light Infantry.
Yeah thats what I was referring to in the second half of my post. Guardsmen are unfairly priced right now. Everything else infantry wise seems pretty cool.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
The only issue really is the comparison to Guardsmen. And for me that's only really an issue because of soup. I think it's fine for different armies to have things at different costs, so they have different strengths and weaknesses. But soup just allows every Imperium player to sub in the game's best light Infantry.
I could not disagree more. Points are there to be an objective gauge of relative strength, once you start discounting certain units, you break that objectivity and encourage spam. In the context of guard, giving the standard infantry a discount would disincentive players from running vets, scions, ogryns etc... and that's not what we want. We want diversity of lists. People will just double down on the "strengths" and ignore the "weaknesses". It is also simply unfair to those players that do not want to run the discounted units for whatever reason.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 1pt up is a great fix. They are still an excellent, durable unit for the price that provides amazing board control and is the best target for stratagems/buffs in the dex. Infantry Squads should be 5pts as well, but I feel that anyone saying Cultists aren't going to be played anymore is just kneejerking.
I agree in the abstract. 5pts for a spammable wound, and in the Troop slot, is totally fine. If Loyalist Marines had access to them then they would see play in pure Marine lists.
The only issue really is the comparison to Guardsmen. And for me that's only really an issue because of soup. I think it's fine for different armies to have things at different costs, so they have different strengths and weaknesses. But soup just allows every Imperium player to sub in the game's best light Infantry.
Yeah thats what I was referring to in the second half of my post. Guardsmen are unfairly priced right now. Everything else infantry wise seems pretty cool.
Guardsmen, and Veterans now. Both undercosted.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
The only issue really is the comparison to Guardsmen. And for me that's only really an issue because of soup. I think it's fine for different armies to have things at different costs, so they have different strengths and weaknesses. But soup just allows every Imperium player to sub in the game's best light Infantry.
I could not disagree more. Points are there to be an objective gauge of relative strength, once you start discounting certain units, you break that objectivity and encourage spam. In the context of guard, giving the standard infantry a discount would disincentive players from running vets, scions, ogryns etc... and that's not what we want. We want diversity of lists. People will just double down on the "strengths" and ignore the "weaknesses". It is also simply unfair to those players that do not want to run the discounted units for whatever reason.
In your opinion they are there to be an objective guage of relative power. I've never seen GW state that that is their philosophy.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong in asymmetric point distribution (just like how in MtG a particular ability might cost a mana budget of 1 in one colour for whom its primary ability, but 2 in another colour for whom it is a secondary ability).
That can work really well to give nuance and variety to different factions, and make them feel truly different. I like it a lot.
But it's ruined by rampant and uncontrolled ability for many factions to soup.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong in asymmetric point distribution (just like how in MtG a particular ability might cost a mana budget of 1 in one colour for whom its primary ability, but 2 in another colour for whom it is a secondary ability).
I've noticed how everyone in favor of "asymmetric" points always uses MtG as an example. But 40k isn't a card game and I'd hate for it to become balanced like one. Giving units in 40k discounts is not nuance, it's not flavor, it's just unbalanced. (I also have 0 interest in MtG type games anyway so I'm even less convinced )
Besides, how does giving Guard cheaper infantry make them more nuanced anyway? You're just stripping options from players by forcing them to run intentionally OP units to not lose. Imagine a Guard vs Guard game where one player spams infantry and the other player takes mostly stormtroopers. By making infantry intentionally cheaper than they're worth you're screwing over the other player.
Lastly, if points are not objective gauges of strength/performance then what's the point in having them at all? Just play open play at that point because you'll never be able to have even matches anyway. Points need to be objective or they're worthless.
Thousand Sons 
World Eaters
Imperial Fists 405th Company 
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