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Hey all,

Looking at a smallish Marine list, about 1,000 pts.  I'll be including at least one, maybe two, Preds, but I can't decide whether Destructor w/2 lascannon sponsons or Annihilator w/2 Bolter sponsons is more cost-effective.  I've played Marines a good deal, but usually go infantry-heavy, and haven't fielded any vehicles more imposing than a Razorback....so advice/opinions/experiences?

-Adso

Depends on style, and whay you want to shoot.

For the turret, lascannons are anti hard target (AV 13+ or 2+ or 3+ saves) while autocannons are anti medium (AV11-12 or 4+ armor).  If you have other antitank stuff like a dev squad you probably don't need an annhilator at that point level, if you don't it is a good investment.

Sponsons add in a mobility question.  Heavy bolters can move 6" and fire, lascannons cannot.  so if you want a tank in the back of your line for sniping use the lascannons, if you want it to advance with your troops, pick the bolters.  Third option, if you want cheap, go without sponsons.

 

I really like the twin las heavy bolter combo. However, I usually go with an autocannon instead to save points. Regardless of the turret I use I always take heavy bolter sponsons. To me the Predator is a mobile anti-infantry platform. If you're planning to stay stil the majority of the timel to fire away with lascannon sponsons you'd probably be better off with a squad of Devs with missile launchers; they're much more resiliant.

I have always liked the all-las Annihilator for dedicated antitank work, but there is something to be said for flexibility. Expecially for Dark Angels, who pay absolutely exhorbitant prices for the lascannons, but get the basic tank cheap. The 95pt Autocannon and HBs Pred is a good bargain for them, though the twin-linked turret and HB sponsons would work pretty well too.

In the games that i play I use one of two varients

1. Predator Destructor with Autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons and extra armour 130pts
2. Predator Annilator with twin lascannon turret, heavy bolter sponsons and extra armour 135pts

These two I find work well in my games as it suits my armies playing style. Mainly because I use multiple scout squads with missiles all over the table top that draw fire away from the tank by giving too many possible targets for the enemy.

As these varients dont have tons of upgrades the points saved can be used to give other weapons to squads or more models per squad.

It depends on the rest of your list.

I fielding a Pred with AC/HB and a PMSB to chew through Orks, Guardsmen and Guants. That's because I have plenty of anti-tank firepower elsewhere in my list. If you don't have that, then you can use the Annihilator with sponson Lascannons to shore up gaps in your list.

I have no room for a Pred in my army, but I wouldnt go with an Annihilator. If you want lascannon you can get them on sponsons easily enough and two shots from the autocannon make a better all round addition to their firepower. You dont really need three and a half lascannon against a single target unless its a monster. eanwhile for antyi medium infantry a Destructoor with heavy bolters is the obvious solution.

If you really need anti-tank then a Pred is not an answer. One not even so lucky shot wioll rob you of your anti tank capability. You need something on foot as your primary anti-tank, a Pred is backup and not an answer in itself unless you take three.

Just to add, the reason I have no room for a Pred is because Devastators are better overall heavy wepons platforms and I need my tank to be a Vindie or two. A Vindicator can do things infantry cannot namely S10 Ap2 pie. Consequently I dont really have room for Predators.

My Dev Squads are Elite choices anyway.

I have space for a Pred along with my Vindicator. Between scatter and spread out enemies, the Predator often scores more kills - even against MEQ's. Of course the Vindicator has a valuable psychological effect.

Exactly - psychological effect is what I'm hoping to achieve. I don't desperately need anti-tank -- I plan on using 'Suffer not the Works of Heretics,' such that my tac squads can become very effective tank-killers. I'm curious about Preds because this frees up my Heavy slots and I've never used them before -- but I wouldn't if they aren't much in terms of table effectiveness.

Right now I'm thinking two preds, both with the autocannon turret / las sponson / pintel SB option might be the way to go. On the move = hit infantry hard. As a hardpoint = extra anti-tank power. Nothing wasted -- the AC shooting at a lascannon target will usually stand some chance of at least glancing, and when it moves and hits infantry, the lascannons won't be firing anyway. At 135 points, it's not mind bogglingly expensive, either.

However, the turret las / sponson bolters approach means on the move I can smack down troops (but not light vehicles) and on the stop I can kick it on vehicles, but it stands more chance of 'wasted fire' when all its weapons shoot at the same target.

The rest of the list is a pretty basic Marine footsloggers list -- tactical squads with Missile/Plasma, some Scouts, and a counterassault unit of Assault Marines. The trick of it is the inclusion of two fairly mean tanks in 1,000 points -- and thus their configuration becomes extremely tactically significant.

-Adso

For effectiveness, don't mix your roles. If you want to threaten troops then maximise with Autocannon/HBolters. If you want to threaten armour and hard infantry use Las/Las.

The only decent 'mix' is the AC/Las as stated above. However, your predator will be hard pressed to equal the productivity of your Dreads.

Asmodai: "My Dev Squads are Elite choices anyway."

I quite agree, whe I play doctrines with my list, this one is my favourite. Tank Hunting missile launcher Devs are the best anti tank SM can get in terms of cost effectiveness. All the bang of lascannon for less.

More importantly it saves up room for my heavy support choices. I like my Land Raider (for fun and a change), my Whirlwind (better choice overall) and my Vindies (downright nasty).

So is the general consensus that Predators simply aren't worth it for most Marine armies? I was thinking that, by having two of them plus a good smattering of Marine infantry, I could give my opponent a difficult choice of 'harder' targets. As far as tank hunting missile launchers go, do you find them to be as good a deal in Tac-Squads as in Dev-Squads?

Part of the reasoning behind this build was the fact that Rhinos are worse than useless, so I was planning on buying the Marine Battleforce, and some Pred Bits to build one at less-than-market-price...would I be better off buying, say, Whirlwind bits instead and turning all my firepower duties over to Marines?

-Adso

Predators are well worth it in many armies. As always, it comes down to your exact build, but as a rule you get more guns for fewer points than you would in a dev squad, plus you can move 12" to grab an objective if you need to, plus you can move and fire, plus having more AV on the table means your other vehicles tend to live longer when you're running armor heavy.

BrotherAdso, I brought two Rhinos in my Team Tourney list, one of my team mates brought three. I had three in my Sunday 40k Championships list. They do good things. Mobile terrain, tank shock, forcing the enemy to make LD checks to shoot at what he really wants to, and, surprise surprise, actually carrying squads where they need to go. Predators and Vindicators have excellent synergy with Rhinos because they force your opponent into hard decisions about where to shoot what guns.

Posted By BrotherAdso on 04/06/2007 5:47 AM
So is the general consensus that Predators simply aren't worth it for most Marine armies? -Adso

No, my personal preference is not to use them. You can replace the weapons with hand held ones easily enough in your tactical squads. You can't get autocannon elsewhere but I dont miss that. Razorbacks, poor though they are in comparison don't use precious HS slots. Consequently I have no use for them.

This doesnt by any stretch mean they are no good, far from it. Taking three Preds is a solid way of using your Heavy Support, it just isnt my style. My only word of caution is that you must take plenty of vehicles or none at all. A single Pred or any other tank is just a target and a guaranteed wreck on the first or second turn. The only exception is a hidden Whirlwind.