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Yeah lose the Combi-Melta. They're worthless.

I'd also be tempted to use the TL Autocannons for your Ven Dreads, as mass shots are always good. However I think Chapter Approved is supposed to have a price cut for the TL Lascannon so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah lose the Combi-Melta. They're worthless.

I'd also be tempted to use the TL Autocannons for your Ven Dreads, as mass shots are always good. However I think Chapter Approved is supposed to have a price cut for the TL Lascannon so...

Last I saw it was a 10 point decrease which is nice.

Thought just occurred to me, if lascannons are getting cheaper, will that extend to MLs as well?

Would be an unexpected boost for 4x Stalker, 1x ML Vet teams (beyond any baseline price cuts).

Why is melta regarded as bad? It looks great on paper, 2 d6 pick the highest damage seems good. Not that I've played this edition yet but hey! My first game Thursday so I guess I'll find out.

Tempted to just chop the meltas off put storm bolters and extra dudes in.

Because its expensive as hell and extreamly short ranged. You might get a singleshot per game, but its priced as if its shooting every turn.

Melta is only good on a unit that can safely deliver it up to Rapid Fire range and potentially survive more than 1 turn that close.

Durable deep strikers are something marines in general lack. The closest thing is Terminators and Sanguinary guard, and neither of those units can pack a lot of melta.

Sometimes a dreadnought can get away with packing a multi-melta, but that's only because melta is one of the cheaper weapon options for a dread and they usually don't die instantly unless your opponent has nothing else worth shooting their heavy weapons at.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Melta is only good on a unit that can safely deliver it up to Rapid Fire range and potentially survive more than 1 turn that close.

Durable deep strikers are something marines in general lack. The closest thing is Terminators and Sanguinary guard, and neither of those units can pack a lot of melta.

Sometimes a dreadnought can get away with packing a multi-melta, but that's only because melta is one of the cheaper weapon options for a dread and they usually don't die instantly unless your opponent has nothing else worth shooting their heavy weapons at.

For 27 points that's still a no-go, especially that when moving it'll shoot AT BEST on a 3+.

Yeah melta dreads are really only a salamanders thing.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yeah melta dreads are really only a salamanders thing.

What's funny is that you'd likely get more mileage out of using the TL Lascannon, as more shots equates more rerolls.

Melta doesn't even work for the Chapter that likes them!

You only get one reroll with Salamanders.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You only get one reroll with Salamanders.

Lemme make my point a little more clear.
1. For the price, TL Lascannons really aren't that much more expensive, especially when they're gonna get a price reduction.
2. That means, for the points, that's more shots.
3. Let us assume you took just a regular Dread for whatever reason. I dunno. It moved and now it'll shoot. On average that's maybe a 75% chance to land the hit (I know the math isn't that accurate there). With a Lascannon, the average dictates a guaranteed hit even without the Salamander reroll. That means you can expect maybe both shots to land most of the time.
4. Your not-very-dangerous targets are wounded at the same rate (anything T7 and below). Anything T8-9 will be more likely wounded by the Lascannon.

For that reason, I would even use TL Autocannons for Salamanders. They trick you into trying to use single shot weapons, and that's part of why Salamnders suck, and that's what I mean by more shots = more rerolls.

Ok got it tag my 5 man squad with 3 Combi meltas came to life 160 pta or something crazy, they do look lovely though

Sterling191 wrote:
Thought just occurred to me, if lascannons are getting cheaper, will that extend to MLs as well?

Would be an unexpected boost for 4x Stalker, 1x ML Vet teams (beyond any baseline price cuts).

Better yet, if twin las drops 10 points to 40, will that mean a similar drop to the lastalon? They're already 40, but aren't equal to the TLC due to a significant range difference. Hope to see a drop in their points as well.

If that happens, since Repulsors are already rumoured to drop 25 points, another 10 from TLC results in a sub 300 point flying land raider for the whole las package. A drop to las talon makes that even juicier.

Repulsors have been pretty viable for Primaris only forces in the lower end of tournament play, and it's unlikely CA will provide enough changes to marines that they all of a sudden end up competitive at the top end, but it'd be interesting to see the Repulsor more often. If so, what kind of Fortis Kill Teams do you think would work best inside?

Lemondish wrote:

Repulsors have been pretty viable for Primaris only forces in the lower end of tournament play, and it's unlikely CA will provide enough changes to marines that they all of a sudden end up competitive at the top end, but it'd be interesting to see the Repulsor more often. If so, what kind of Fortis Kill Teams do you think would work best inside?

Assuming you're going for the Quad-Las for anti-armor work, the natural complement to that is either a 5x Hellblaster Fortis team, or just going straight for Hellblasters. A full-in Repulsor has an insane amount of anti-chaff guns so the Intercessor streetsweeper is less necessary, though their capacity to serve as ablative wounds for Hellblasters is till a consideration.

Only problem comes in with figuring out how to deliver the Watch Captain / Master reroll bubble. Teleport is the obvious choice that doesnt force a 9-man Fortis squad. Jump pack is another way to go.

If there is a big drop in the repulsor points wise I'll be getting over to replace my corvus

Hello guys!

I've been away from the game for a while (my local store closed down), and I'm looking to get back into the game. My usual army is a bunch of filthy green skinned xenos, but I got some deathwatch models as a gift, and I'm trying to lay out a proper army where I don't have to lug around 90+ models wherever I go. Would you mind giving some thoughts?


Brigade Detachment #1:

HQ: Watch Captain (Jumpack): SB with the Bane Bolts, TH, BP

HQ: Watch Captain: Stalker BG, BP, Power Axe

Troops: Vets (10 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB and Power Sword. 2 Vets: Frag Cannons. 3 Vets: SB and SS. 3 Vets: SB and CS

Troops: Vets (10 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB and Power Sword. 3 Vets: SB and SS. 5 Vets: SB and CS

Troops: Intercessors (10 total): Sargent & 4 Intercessors: BP & Stalker Bolt Rifles. 5 Hellblasters: Heavy Plasma Incinerators.


Brigade Detachment #2:

HQ: Watch Captain: SB & TH

HQ: Dreadnaught Chaplain: Assault Cannon with Warlord Trait for 2 damage, SB, Dreadnaught Combat Weapon.

Troops: Vets (5 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB & Power Sword. 3 Vets: SB & CS

Troops: Vets (5 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB & Power Sword. 3 Vets: SB & CS

Troops: Intercessors (10 total): Sargent & 4 Intercessors: BP & Stalker Bolt Rifles. 5 Hellblasters: Heavy Plasma Incinerators.

Dedicated Transport: Razorback: Twin AC

Dedicated Transport: Razorback: Twin AC


The general idea is this:

The Intercessors stay in terrain at the back with the stalker watch captain to hold objectives and provide long-ish ranged fire support.

The 5 man squads and the SB TH footsloging capatin ride in the razorbacks and give me some more on the field presence.

The Jetpack captain, two 10 man vets squads, and the chaplain all deepstrike (via jetpack & command points) and are my main attack force come turn 2.

The biggest issue I seem to have is where am I going to get anti-tank? I'm trying for pure deathwatch (IG allies would be great, I'm sure, but the whole point is to go small model count compared to my orks), so I know my options are limited. Are the Hellbasters any good at it? They seem like a fair option alongside my TH wielding captains (that may just be the Ork in me wanting to smash things up close). I feel like with storm bolters and special issue ammo, I've got anti-infantry for days.

Anyways, thoughts and general tactical advice are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.

Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.

Sterling191 wrote:
Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.

Exactly this.

Sterling191 wrote:
Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.

But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.

I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.

Funnily enough, if Primaris got Stalker Pattern Boltguns (not bolt rifles) I'd consider them almost instantly for backfield objective camping. Bump SBRs to SBG weight of fire and they'd be exceptional long range fire support units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:


But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.

I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!

Chapter Tactics (and their factional equivalents) are not the sole source of negative hit modifiers. Unless/until the Kill Team rules of self-immolation happen (unmodified 1s not results of 1) Hellblasters are hard countered by specific armored configurations.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.

Funnily enough, if Primaris got Stalker Pattern Boltguns (not bolt rifles) I'd consider them almost instantly for backfield objective camping. Bump SBRs to SBG weight of fire and they'd be exceptional long range fire support units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:


But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.

I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!

Chapter Tactics (and their factional equivalents) are not the sole source of negative hit modifiers. Unless/until the Kill Team rules of self-immolation happen (unmodified 1s not results of 1) Hellblasters are hard countered by specific armored configurations.

Hard counters would be -1 to hit stratagems, psy spells or flyers, WL traits and so on mostly only work on the character having the WL trait so im not counting them.
If minus 1 becomes cover (even if it becomes additional cover so +2) Plasma will still bring most things down to a 4+ save.

Ok. So if the heavy incinerators are out for a good anti-tank option, what's good?

 Palleus wrote:
Ok. So if the heavy incinerators are out for a good anti-tank option, what's good?

LasBacks, Lascannon Tarantulas (well they're not exactly great but super easy to add in, which is maybe the only positive), spammed +1 to Wound Strats, and lastly maybe allied Predators (assuming they're okay after Chapter Approved).
That's about all I got.

 Palleus wrote:
Ok. So if the heavy incinerators are out for a good anti-tank option, what's good?

I wouldn't consider any thing in the DW codex good dedicated anti-armour for points (this is pre-CA18).

But some units/models that can do the job, be not over the top in points and are more geared towards AT are:

Normal codex:
Jump Captain: Combi-melta and Thunder hammer. My favourite unit in the codex for me, if use him wisely with support elements.
Some Combi-plasmas in a teleport stratagem squad: Depends how configure the rest of the squad. But, the models that have combi-plasma's can be effective against vehicles and heavy infantry or even light infantry. They need support by a captain to be super effective and not detrimental, so need to take into account.

Ven Dread with twin las and missile: Is kinda expensive and if don't have back field support usually crap, but offer consistent ranged hitting power and a little survivability (espec if they have screen or a support element each). If go a HQ support for re-rolls, just a captain is fine with them (cause if move or stand still is the same buff even if had a master near them for shooting).

Razor with twin las: Depends what using it for. Is ok if use it as a fire point and not a transport or you have a unit inside to protect them from first round fire and then they move out instantly (however, if have a unit inside is such a points sink for DW). If want a 'transport' for a squad go twin HB's cause they won't be targeted (twin AC's are good, but people tend to target them more and they cost almost same as twin Lascannons, is all dependent on situation/composition/need of army etc).

Forge World:
Is many good options, but take a good chunk of points. One I really like for cost is (because we are already expensive and this is easy to add in):

Rapier Weapons Carrier with Quad mortar: Can give some out of LOS fire if need but if get them to within 24" (or enemy gets to within 24") are ok.

Is a lot of other dedicated or AT options in the Codex but they are to expensive atm

I don't run primaris often so I can't comment on them.

There's also the Las Vindicator from FW but I honestly don't know any of the math behind it. If someone could chime in with that, I'd appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else here would too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's also the Las Vindicator from FW but I honestly don't know any of the math behind it. If someone could chime in with that, I'd appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else here would too.

I don't own any of them, but looks good for only 183 pts on paper (unless update I missed, I'm not a huge tank fan, I own from FW in regards to DW: LR achillies, but more leviathans/doredo's/deathstorms/tarantulars/rapiers etc). More go for the strike force element/fluff and also bought what I thought was cool.

Though I don't think (if it is that points) it will stay that way much longer. It is a major fire card (as in draw fire, but could do damage) which is great. But then it is a major fire card (I wouldn't bank on it being your main AT, not that it would be. It's more if get first turn awesome, maybe, if don't its dead).

It's 183 however, a Ven dread is 'only' 165... (if going the stand and shoot option) and then a rapier quad is 'only' 100. Those points may seem small differences, but for DW every point helps.

Interested in the math as well (I wouldn't use, not to my play style). But good suggestion for a AT unit for all.

First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary

Rogerio134134 wrote:
First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary

Depends on if you're playing on planet bowling ball.

Lemondish wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary

Depends on if you're playing on planet bowling ball.

Played on a terrain heavy board, chose to deep strike 1 unit it failed to even wipe out a single unit of 7 plauge marines...