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I'm trying to settle on a ruling (for my FAQ) about how scoring units with attached (non-IC) models are handled. The "Units with Distinct Elements" rule on page 86 is clear when it comes to an IC that is joined to a unit:

 "The same approach is taken when an independent character has a Command squad or retinue mounted in a transport. Each element is a separate entity when calculating Victory Points. Thus a Space Marine Chaplain with Command squad in a Rhino would be an independent character, a unit of Space Marines and a vehicle unit."

 

What I'm wondering is, how does everyone handle the situation when a non-Independent character is involved? For example an Imperial Guard Commissar or Tyranid Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guard. Both are models who get permanently attached to their unit for the duration of the game.

When it comes to the end of the game are the Victory Points for these models included with their squad into one giant lump or are they seperated out?

If they are seperated out, why? The 'units with distinct elements' only mentions ICs with retinues/bodyguards and units that have distinct elements that operate seperately during the game (like IG platoons or Tyranid Zoanthropes). Is there any reason to assume that this rule applies to units with attached models?

And if we are seperating out Hive Tyrants from Tyrant Guard and Commissars from their squads at the end of the game for Victory Point purposes, how does that affect scoring status of the unit?

If an IG Commissar is attached to a 7-man remnants squad and that squad suffers four casualties, at the end of the game is the squad considered a scoring unit or is it under half starting strength (i.e. do you count the Commissar so the squad has 4 of 8 models left or do you not count the Commissar so the squad has 3 of 7 models left)?

And what about if that attached model has Wargear models (like a Chaos Lieutenant in a LatD army can have)? Are those Wargear models included in the unit's total for scoring status at the end of the game? If so or if not, why?

Please note that I am talking only about models that have a seperate codex entry and are then permanently attached to another unit for the game. I am not talking about upgrade charaters like Ork Nobs.

 

Thanks, any feedback will be helpful.

 

I consider situations like the Tyrant Guard to be upgrades for the unit. Similar to a Tac Squad has 5 models base. You can buy an additional 5 models. Scoring status is based on the full upgraded number of wounds (10 in the case of a Tac squad, same with a full Tyrant plus guard squad), not on the base 5 wounds.

Considering that the 'units with district elements' only mentions IC's and Vehicles, it's safe to say that those are the only things that the rule applies to.

I agree with skyth. For all cases except monstrous creatures who are part of a scoring unit, it seems to me that "units with distinct elements" refers to units who fall into more than one category on the table that shows the requirements to get VPs from types of units, and when units are scoring.

However, that opens up a different can of worms: a Hive Tyrant is a monstrous creature, and monstrous creatures are scoring units all by themselves. If a Hive Tyrant has a retinue of three tyrant guard (total: 10 wounds) at the beginning of the game, and at the end of the game all that remains is the Hive Tyrant with three wounds remaining, is it still a scoring unit?

By RAW, I would argue that it is still a scoring unit because it is a monstrous creature with 50% or more of its starting wounds.

Alternatively, is the only portion of the unit that scores the Hive Tyrant? That doesn't make any sense at all.

RAW, I think that you have to inflict 9 wounds onto a unit of Hive Tyrant + 3x Tyrant Guard before they cease to be a scoring unit.

Posted By Tiderian on 06/19/2007 7:43 PM

However, that opens up a different can of worms: a Hive Tyrant is a monstrous creature, and monstrous creatures are scoring units all by themselves. If a Hive Tyrant has a retinue of three tyrant guard (total: 10 wounds) at the beginning of the game, and at the end of the game all that remains is the Hive Tyrant with three wounds remaining, is it still a scoring unit?

By RAW, I would argue that it is still a scoring unit because it is a monstrous creature with 50% or more of its starting wounds.

Alternatively, is the only portion of the unit that scores the Hive Tyrant? That doesn't make any sense at all.

RAW, I think that you have to inflict 9 wounds onto a unit of Hive Tyrant + 3x Tyrant Guard before they cease to be a scoring unit.

Monstrous Creatures aren't anything special in the Victory Point rules.

There are either Indepedent Characters (which the Tyrant is not) and there are non-vehicle units.

Because the Tyrant Guard and Tyrant form a unit I don't see anything in the 'units with distinct elements' rules that would allow you count them seperately so in your example once you inflict 6 wounds on the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit you will have reduced it below scoring.

I feel pretty confident that is the correct way to play by the written rules.


However, I'm kind of looking for instances where people disagree with me or say that they play the other way all the time.

In the case of the Commissar, I believe that he should be considered part of the unit for points, etc. The Hive Tyrant gets a little more sticky. Say the tyrant guard are all killed, does the Hive Tyrant revert to a scoring unit as a monstrous creature or is it a unit under half? My opinion is a unit under half, which defines my answer, tyrant and guard are rolled up into a single unit for points, etc.

Also, how are you treating IC with a mandatory retinue, ie IG officers and their bodyguard? If I buy nothing for the 4 IG bodyguard and they all die but the character is untouched, do I lose any VP? Or is it just the loss of a free scoring unit since the points paid for the unit are for the officer?  (Edit: just saw that you answered this in the other thread, never mind............)

Posted By don_mondo on 06/20/2007 4:20 AM

In the case of the Commissar, I believe that he should be considered part of the unit for points, etc. The Hive Tyrant gets a little more sticky. Say the tyrant guard are all killed, does the Hive Tyrant revert to a scoring unit as a monstrous creature or is it a unit under half? My opinion is a unit under half, which defines my answer, tyrant and guard are rolled up into a single unit for points, etc.

There seems to be a mistaken concept that Monstrous Creatures have some sort of special status when it comes to Victory Points. There is no such rules in the 4th edition Victory Points--Monstrous Creatures are never mentioned or listed for anything.

Now, Carnifexes on their own are clearly a unit and are therfore (by default) a 'non-vehicle unit' but they aren't classified as anything special beyond that for being a Monstrous Creature.

So a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard is pretty much exactly the same concept as a Commissar attached to a squad.

In both cases you have models that are attached to a unit before a game and cannot leave it during the game.

The only difference is, of course, that the Tyrant can be taken without a Tyrant Guard and in that case he is clearly a non-infanty unit on his own.

My $.02- if a non-IC model (Commissar, Tyrant, whatever) is attached to a unit before the game starts and can never leave it for the entire duration of the game, then I consider it as a part of that unit for scoring purposes (VPs, scoring unit, etc).  So if the entire IG squad is wiped out and only the Commissar is left, then that unit is worth half victory points (including the Commissar's points into the unit's total), not 100% victory points.  Same for Bugs.  If the Tyrant/Guard unit is reduced to < 50% starting wounds, then it is worth half and no longer a scoring unit.

Well I don't know if this will confuse this issue or maybe help it out but the FAQ for the nids says that the Tyrant is an UPGRADE character (of all things) to the Tyrant Guard unit. I presume that means like a Vet Sgt... so then they would in fact NOT be separated as far as scoring VP's is concerned?
The FAQ Ruling is here, emphasis mine.

Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character?

A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to
this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit
follows the rules for retinues (except that the Tyrant
counts as an upgrade character with this unit) until the
Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Tyrant
reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures.

That would almost support what Beast had said about models like the Commissar being a part of the unit they are attached to therefore being calculated into the unit for scoring purposes.

Except that according to the FAQ we should be viewing the Tyrant as an "upgrade" to the unit rather than a separate addition...

It seems everybody agrees so far, even before taking into account the Tyranid FAQ...

I'll try to find the rationale for this consensus.

First of all, why is there a doubt on this issue ?  Because BGB p86 seems to mix two conditions for separating "units with distinct elements" :

1.  it applies to units that deploy and operate separately.  That is quite clear, and does not cause any problem or confusion.

2.  it also applies to ICs with retinue (and/or transport).  Now this generates some confusion because (a) the rule ignores the case of non-IC with retinue (Hive Tyrant with Guards... )

AND (b) the reader is tempted to unconsciously extend the rule to units that are built from "items" that are shown as separate Codex entries (Commissars - Platoons, Hive Tyrants - Guards, squad - transport), and mixes it with the fact that such an item may or may not be taken as a unit in its own right (Hive Tyrant, SM Chaplain, ... ).

I think this is the root of the confusion.

Now, when we analyse the rule, we see that there is no consideration whatsoever about that "unconscious assumption" on an item being allowed as a unit choice in its own right.  The clearest examples are dedicated transport  and command retinues (they cannot be taken on their own... ) .  We can therefore completely ignore this "criterion" when deciding whether the separation rule applies or not.

It then becomes very simple : if an "item" (Hive Tyrant, Commissar) does not deploy and operate separately from its retinue (Guards, IG unit) and is not an IC, then the separation rule cannot apply, by RAW.

Now, I've got another for you, going "the other way" : what about the Broodlord and his (mandatory) retinue of Genestealers ?  The BL is an IC, but he cannot be taken on his own !  Yet, by applying the same logic as above (not consideration of the "item" being allowed / not allowed on his own), I say the separation rule of p86 applies, simply because he is an IC with retinue...

You've written (lenghty) an eloquent passage but we're definitely saying the same thing!

And you are absolutely correct about the Broodlord. If a model is an independent Character then it is counted seperately for Victory Point/Scoring unit purposes regardless of whether it can leave that unit or not during the game.

Than it would make sense that a tyrant would be the same way! What makes no sense is that i take him with a GAURD squad and at the end of the game if all of them are dead he is out of luck for scoring. But if taken alone and hidden behind a building all game or if he still has 50% of his wounds he is scoring? The only reason he is not an independant charactor is because he is able to be picked out of an army for shooting.
So why in the heck would i take the gaurd EVER?

If the unit (tyrant + retinue) takes 3 wounds from a str 8+ weapon they dont score any longer, if he takes 3 wounds from the same (common do to his Toughness) he is no longer scoring either? that is stupid.

Ok im done *female dog*ing and you guys are more than likely right on the money from what i can see....