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https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/from-0-to-hero-did-vigilus-ca-fix-primaris-marines.html
I wonder if any of the Vigilus strats etc. will effect our primaris units. If so we could make a unit with stalker bolt rifles snipe characters and cause mortals on 6s. Also potential to make them rapid fire 2. This could be great for us if so. Use kraken rd for extra 6" and -1ap. That would be 2 shots each @ 21" -3ap mortals on 6s that can pick out characters.

We may not get that as it is way better than normal snipers. Although it would cost 3cp to do this it could be great.

Unless something has changed, they wont. Deathwatch has Deathwatch Detachments, not Space Marine Detachments.

This >>>>>

Sterling191 wrote:
Unless something has changed, they wont. Deathwatch has Deathwatch Detachments, not Space Marine Detachments.

. Was guuna write some crap about why I won't use primaris for DW but is holidays, so is what is

yeah, Deathwatch definitely got a significant buff in this CA. Although core issues such as the Corvus and it's Heavy Weapons didn't change, the overall points drops are encouraging. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Super happy to give this a good run through this weekend.

Terminators being 32 points with a power axe and storm bolter is pretty solid I think. They do not have the raw firepower of a veteran squad and trade a 2 point 3++ for a 2+ and 5++, but for 12 more points you do get two wounds and a vastly better melee profile on top of always being able to deepstrike no CP required. If you want you can mix and match in a cyclone missile for 38 points or a thunder hammer stormshield for the 3++. They have some nice options. There's also the possibility of paying the CP and putting them with 5 vets who can carry stormshields to tank high AP and let the five termies tank low ap, but then you have a very big footprint. Alternatively you could put them in a massively point reduced crusader in which they would fit snuggly and leave room for a character.

Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.

Deathwatch for sure answer the marine problem of not doing enough damage, and with the point drops and 3++ SS they are getting there as far as survivability goes.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.

The synergy between Biker and VanVet point cuts is significant IMO. The combination of the two gives you a harassing shooty unit that can tie units up in melee, but cant be tied up themselves without application of serious numbers (at which point they've almost certainly done their job as disruptors).

Not sure I'm sold on Termies by themselves, especially with Power Fist Intercessors/Aggressors about to be a thing. They're considerably more viable as flashlight catchers though.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.

The synergy between Biker and VanVet point cuts is significant IMO. The combination of the two gives you a harassing shooty unit that can tie units up in melee, but cant be tied up themselves without application of serious numbers (at which point they've almost certainly done their job as disruptors).

Not sure I'm sold on Termies by themselves, especially with Power Fist Intercessors/Aggressors about to be a thing. They're considerably more viable as flashlight catchers though.

Yeah I am coming around a bit to the idea of a split squad. 5 stalker bros to sit back then 4/5 of 3/5 bikers with 1-2 vanguards with stormshield bolt pistol. You have the SS to tank AP and multiple damage stuff then the bikes to eat the lower end stuff. I think I lean towards the 3 bikes 2 van vets split so you have that backup 3++, but the bikers do a lot more actual damage than the veterans. Hrmph..

I'm personally looking at 4 SPB + SS and 1 ML vet paired with 3 bikes and 2 VanVets as my default non-Primaris team. Park the gropos in cover and let them snipe gak out all game while the zoomers crash headfirst and cause a ruckus.

With all the point drops I think we can now finally build double battalion lists without having to spam squads with almost no real upgrades.

I've had great success in every game with the following squad setups:

Plasma Squad

3x Vets w/ Plasma Gun
Sarge w/ Plasma Gun
Vanguard Vet w/ 2x Plasma Pistols
Termi w/ PS, SB
2x Vets w/ SB, SS

Shotgun Squad

4x Vets w/ Shotguns
Sarge w/ SB
2x Vets w/ SB, SS
1x Vet w/ FC

Stormbolter Squad
2x Vets w/ SB
2x Vets w/ SB, SS
Blackshield w/ SB, TH
Sarge w/ SB
2x Vets w/ FC
1x Termi w/ Melter, PF, SB
[/spoiler]

Everyone who can also has a Chainsword.

The Plasma Squad is great at taking out vehicles, monsters or elite infantry. The Shotgun Squad is mainly there because I love the shotgun models. And they can do surprisingly well against light vehicles with the +1 to-wound stratagem and the D2 shots. And the Stormbolter Squad is just death to almost any unit.

With the point drops I also bought a Land Raider Crusader since I like the model but it was always just too expensive to actually take. Now I think the Crusader may actually be worth it, especially if its transport capacity is used to good effect.

What are your thoughts on the Land Raider variants? Are they worth it now?

Land raiders went down a beefy amount so that helps them for sure. The crusader especially can benefit from DW +1 wounds strats due it's volume of fire. Personally I play mostly primaris and deepstrike my normal marines when I do bring them, but I can see the use for a crusader to carry mixed squads closer to the enemy.

I'd love landraider to be good but I think the points drop has just made them less bad :/

Until they get a rule that stops them being useless if touched in combat they are gonna suffer, they have too much firepower to waste but need to get close to the enemy to make use of their great transport ability.

That said I'm still gonna use one but I used one before CA

Has anyone compiled a list of all our points changes? I'm playing a game tonight against a DE buddy and he is using his new pts cost.

Won't let me copy it but I found a good breakdown and copy of the leaks here:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352162-deathwatch-chapter-approved-2018/

I'm kind of curious to see how many normal dreads kitted for generalist work we'll see now alongside the tankbusting Vendread. With the ML/PC loadout clocking in under 100 points now it's damn tempting.

I'm gonna be running a standard dread with DCCW/stormbolter & Assault cannon (original metal model) alongside a venerable with twinlascannon and missile launcher.

Both performed well previously so look doubly good with the CA reductions

 WisdomLS wrote:
Won't let me copy it but I found a good breakdown and copy of the leaks here:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352162-deathwatch-chapter-approved-2018/

Thank you.

With the vet point reductions is there any point to running aggressors as a stand alone unit (they have a place in mixed primaris squads I guess)

SIA on storm bolters looks so much better vs. pretty much all targets and the 3++ and "immunity" to multi-damage weapons seems to strongly be in favor of the vets. Obsec and the ability to throw in a jump pack and the fallback+shoot makes them even stronger.

The power-fists on the aggressors is a nice bonus but I'd rather have them shooting chaff than fighting stuff that needs a power fist (and that -1 to hit really hurts in my experience).

Anyone have any reason to run them over vets?

Deathwatch never ran standalone Aggressors.

Yeah, the only standalone Aggressors to run are Raven Guard (well not anymore) and Space Wolves (Outflank + their power fists don't suck first round).

Sterling191 wrote:
I'm kind of curious to see how many normal dreads kitted for generalist work we'll see now alongside the tankbusting Vendread. With the ML/PC loadout clocking in under 100 points now it's damn tempting.

I didn't even think of that combo. 98 points for a ML and plasma cannon on a dread.... It has the firepower of two devs armed with said weapons which would be 62 points. For 36 more points you gain the statline of a dreadnought. It's not a lot of firepower though with the cannon only being d3 intead of d6. For 98 points you could get 3 hellblasters which are much more of a threat and more mobile, but squishier. Hrmph....

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

For 98 points you could get 3 hellblasters which are much more of a threat and more mobile, but squishier. Hrmph....

Only if they can get into rapid fire range. HPC punches at full strength out to 36". Also its only a single mortal wound, not instant death, if you hit on the "dont roll snakeyes" lottery.

Admittedly the d3 shots is a bit of an issue, but at the new price point it's basically a souped up "Deathwatch Autocannon" in all but name so I can live with a bit of variability TBH.

With the beefy point drops to dreads I am thinking of perhaps taking a little cadre of them alongside my standard force of primaris deathwatch. I wonder though do you guys think it would be better to just make them deathwatch as well or split them off as a codex chapter? My thoughts on the pros and cons are

Deathwatch:
Benefit from character buffs
Their CT is pretty good.
Do not require separate HQs.
Can play into detachments easier


Codex:
Access to -1 to hit trait or the 6+++ trait which are both pretty good on dreadnoughts. Not sure which is actually better, but I'd wager it's the -1.
Access to super cheap techmarines
Access to other relics.
Cons:
Requires separate HQs
Less CP generation for a very CP hungry army.

Deathwatch Dreads too good to swap out.

-1 to hit Ven Dreads would be a decent pick. That said, you made mention of HQ units and we pay a premium for that. Would likely be best just to go for Deathwatch still.

It depends on what kinds of Dreads you're talking about. The DW rerolls and the +Wound strategems are both powerful reasons to keep them DW.

5++ from a camping Captain with the Aegis, baked in Lieutenant aura, and +Wound strats make it hard sell to soup in other 'naughts for a DW list. And that's before taking into consideration the HQ tax.

Threw together a rough list of what I might try and applying the drops from battlescribe it will have dropped 246 points with some margin of error for rough estimates. That's impressive, but granted it's largely due to intercessors going down 2ppm and redemptors dropping like 41 points.

As for which dreads to take I think there might a niche for the cheaper plasma/missile dread as a budget anti-tank option when taking in number as long as we don't compare them to a leman russ tank commander and make ourselves sad. 98 points for a missile shot and plasma cannon is not amazing offensive output, but it's on a fairly reliable and cheep chassis for that firepower. Just two of them can spit out 2d3 plasma cannons and 2 missile attack which could do some work.

Redemptors have some pretty good chaff smiting ability with 18 s5 ap-1 shots and some plinking bolters which synergieses well with DW tactics and strats. Pretty alright at putting wounds on big targets in melee.

Venerable dreads I feel can be a comfortable middle ground option. 152 for a twin las and fist at ws/bs2+ give you some decent anti tank with the las and some stopping power with reliable 2+ d3 fist attacks. For 9 more points though you can get a redemptor full kitted out. Or you could go for a rifleman dread set up and do twin las and missile for 140 points. For only 20 more points over a normal dread you get a 6+++ and better WS/BS.

I suppose we have options here and can really bring what is needed. Deathwatch infantry already have some very solid anti horde with either aggressors or storm vets so I think that niche is covered. Hellblasters can be decent anti tank, but are vulnerable to negative to hit modifiers in a big way.

Comp list idea with a deathwatch primary then the usual stuff...

Watch master
Watch captain with TH and JP

5X 9 vets - 8 with SB and SS, one VV with TH

AM loyal 32

Raven castellan

Cos everything important deserves a 3++

Have been watching mini guerrilla wargaming on YouTube and he has a lovely Deathwatch army but loses every single game. Does anyone actually take a corvus? They seem pointless to me even though I have one.