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Andykp wrote:
How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.

He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.



And I am twenty years old, not thirteen.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.

He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.



And I am twenty years old, not thirteen.

No dude, civilians where slaughtered during the conquests. Also there where plenty of times entire worlds where out and out PURGED. you don't think the world eaters or the space wolves just politely killed soldiers and left civilians alone do you?

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.

He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.



And I am twenty years old, not thirteen.

No dude, civilians where slaughtered during the conquests. Also there where plenty of times entire worlds where out and out PURGED. you don't think the world eaters or the space wolves just politely killed soldiers and left civilians alone do you?

Actually, the Space Wolves did that. The linked book below has a short story where the Space Wolves spare the tyrants of Kernnunos even after they (verbally) spat in the Emperor's face. If they spare those evil types of people, then I think they would leave civilians alone. And the Emperor actually chasitised the World Eatres.



https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Heresy-Horus-Nick-Kyme/dp/1844166821



Care to name those instances? Because I think most of that is bs after reading the HH books myself.




Here a juicy quote from Age of Darkness. How do you explain the quote below?




"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness





Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness

Then why do they have phosphex, virus bombs, planet killing space stations. Just look at current warfare to see the impact it has on civilians. Peaceful systems were brought into compliance and deaths occurred. They never asked to liberated or wanted it in many cases hence the resistance. Being a crusader and conqueror isn’t a benevolent act. It’s violent and oppressive. Look at what happened on caliban after they happily joined the empire. The planet was raped of its resources and the population mobilised in forced labour and herded into hive cities. And we all know what that does for life expectancy and happiness. And they were happy to join. Imagine, from a normal humans point of view what it was like if you resisted. Total war, orbital bombardment, siege warfare with disease and famine. Civilian casualties a plenty. And you say they killed soldiers like that’s fine but they invade places minding their own business and slaughtered their armies. That’s a war crime today never mind in the 31st millennium. If I are twenty then open your eyes to the fact that the stories, if they were true, would be horrific. Truly horrific. Then read up on the human cost of war. It’s equally horrific.

Andykp wrote:
Then why do they have phosphex, virus bombs, planet killing space stations. Just look at current warfare to see the impact it has on civilians. Peaceful systems were brought into compliance and deaths occurred. They never asked to liberated or wanted it in many cases hence the resistance. Being a crusader and conqueror isn’t a benevolent act. It’s violent and oppressive. Look at what happened on caliban after they happily joined the empire. The planet was raped of its resources and the population mobilised in forced labour and herded into hive cities. And we all know what that does for life expectancy and happiness. And they were happy to join. Imagine, from a normal humans point of view what it was like if you resisted. Total war, orbital bombardment, siege warfare with disease and famine. Civilian casualties a plenty. And you say they killed soldiers like that’s fine but they invade places minding their own business and slaughtered their armies. That’s a war crime today never mind in the 31st millennium. If I are twenty then open your eyes to the fact that the stories, if they were true, would be horrific. Truly horrific. Then read up on the human cost of war. It’s equally horrific.

Being a conqueror is not inherently evil. Conquerors do good things and bad things.



The population was forced to do that? I cannot find that.






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And most conquerors are not like Hitler or Stalin.

What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.

Andykp wrote:
What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.

No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.

No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.

And you don’t see how that last bit is a bad thing to do?


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How many good things do you have to do to make up for genocide, hitler introduced motorways and the war moved technology on a lot which benefitted people a lot. Does that cancel out the holocaust?

The Romans brought all sorts to Britain but does that mean it was ok to murder the entire Druid religion on Anglesey?

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.

No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.

No, the conquest is the goal of conquerors. Freedom isn't in any card a conqueror holds.
That would be a liberator.

Doesn't anyone else see a bit of the Wizard of Oz in the Emperor's story?

If you're an Imperial type, you see an all-powerful deity; if you're not you see a random dude hiding behind a load of deceptions, frantically pulling on levers.

This kind of nudging vagueness is key to the 40K background, IMO, 'cause it's perfectly possible and legitimate to argue either.

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.

No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.

No, the conquest is the goal of conquerors. Freedom isn't in any card a conqueror holds.
That would be a liberator.

Sometimes they do. But mostly they conquer.

It's perfectly possible to be a conqueror and a liberator at the same time, FWIW.

It's entirely dependent on perspective.

Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.

Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.

In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.

the thing about 40k you have to remember is, It's not intended to be admirable. Let's look closely for a moment at the "great shining beacon of enlightenment in the Imperium" Ultramar and Robute Gulliman, thing is, well we don't know a lot about it we do know eneugh to know that it's a military dictatorship, we also know that all engage in military education with a hope to becoming Ultramarines, and it's obvious they do it quite young.
Despite the idea of it being Romanesque, I suspect modern Ultramar is more similer to Sparta.
Not exactly a bastion of enlightened freedom.

The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.

Nonsense. All people are happy in the Emperor's golden light, who shields them from the mutant, the xeno and the heretic. The Imperium does not need any totalitarianism or fascism or any other form of oppression, because the only people who would ever disagree with the Most Holy Emperor and his appointed officials are mutants or heretics who work unceasingly to bring down our beautiful Imperium and throw mankind into suffering and despair. Only mutants or heretics would therefore ever speak out against the Imperium. Are you a mutant or a heretic, citizen? No? Then get back to work! Quotas must be met!

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.

No its not. The Imperium is feudal.



Fascism has a very specific meaning and the Imperium utterly fails to meet it on account of being a semi-decentralized feudal federation allied with a sovereign power with numerous wholly independent subfactions within it which hold large sections of space with little to no direct oversight. Not only is all its territory structured in a feudal manner with lords and overlords passing taxes up the chain to the Administratum but it doesn't even have a unified economy, let alone a planned one. Which is one of the most important features of Fascism- everything is controlled by the state. The Imperium shares far more with Stalinism than it does Fascism, and even that is pushing it.

(Ironically for all of SB's "le deus vult" memes, the Imperium shares more with the Ottoman Empire considering its usage of slaves and taking children to be raised from youth as the greatest soldiers in the empire. And even having said child soldier caste rebelling multiple times.)


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Slipspace wrote:
Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.

Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.

In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.

And almost all aliens during the Great Crusade were hostile. Horus mused about this in Horus Rising when he found the Interex. Horus mused that the Interex is the first time he had found alien co-existence. And there were other Legions with him.

https://www.amazon.com/Horus-Rising-Heresy-Dan-Abnett/dp/1849707448

And you have jack crap to prove the Emperor is a "tyrant and despot". Put up or shut up. I have only seen one link in anyway corroborating what you said, and its from the Forgeworld books.



The 41st millennium Imperium was meant to be a dystonian society.

The Emperor is incontrovetibly a tyrant. He could be considered to be justified within the parameters of the setting, but that does not stop him from being a tyrant. Bringing worlds into the Imperium by the sword is not benevolent for those peoples, even if it may be the only way humanity can survive in the long run. In addition, the Emperor is perfectly happy to let oppressive societies enter the Imperium, so long as they swear fealty and agree to the Imperial laws and tithe. He cares not how humanity lives, only that it survives at all. As an example, we know the League of Blackships was operating during the Great Crusade, which means it must have had the Emperor's consent to exist. It still collected thousands of psykers every day to feed to the Astronomican or force to work for the Imperium. If you are a human psyker, you are either food, a slave, or a hunted fugitive (a tiny number gain some agency as Inquisitors or Librarians and the like).

BrianDavion wrote:the thing about 40k you have to remember is, It's not intended to be admirable. Let's look closely for a moment at the "great shining beacon of enlightenment in the Imperium" Ultramar and Robute Gulliman, thing is, well we don't know a lot about it we do know eneugh to know that it's a military dictatorship, we also know that all engage in military education with a hope to becoming Ultramarines, and it's obvious they do it quite young.
Despite the idea of it being Romanesque, I suspect modern Ultramar is more similer to Sparta.
Not exactly a bastion of enlightened freedom.

Sparta is complex, and I'm not sure if it is the example you are really looking for. On the other hand, for Ultramar it may be accurate, in that there are some real liberties, yet also some very oppressive dark sides. As it happens, in many ways Sparta was much more egalitarian than Athens during the classical period (the most well known period). This is especially true for women.

Excommunicatus wrote:The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.

The Imperium is weird, it is largely feudal by necessity, but the overarching state is as fascist as it can be within the contraints of Imperial warp communications. Individual planets could be as egalitarian as they like within certain immutable Imperial laws (a governor, the Imperial tithe, the collection of psykers, a zero-tolerance policy for aliens and mutants etc.), but then they cannot choose to break these laws or leave without inviting bloody retribution. But otherwise, the governor could be democratically elected, for example.

Slipspace wrote:Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.

Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.

In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.

Exactly. The Imperium (and the entire 40k setting) is meant to be satirical of such methods. Part of the grimdarkness of the setting is they have actually engineered a scenario where the Imperium is truly terrible, yet is actually justified in much of its horrific acts by the even more terrible things that lurk out there in the darkness. Luckily, we don't have to worry about the possibility of a single, lost soul potentially spelling the doom of an entire world, or even solar system. Unfortunately, some people fall afoul of Poe's law, and do not see the point in that it takes such extreme threats to make the policies enacted by the Imperium seem in any way reasonable.

I'm aware Sparta is a complex place that has it's pros and cons, which makes it such a great comparison in some ways. the important part is that, by modern standards I doubt we'd want to live there.

One thing you say it’s feom a forgeworld book as if that is somehow not as significant as a black library book. This is wrong. I listed on one of your threads about this many examples of the emperor ordering or condoning genocide, enslaving people and deliberately killing off his own troops.


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Onething, you will fail to be able to convince anyone on here the emperor is a good guy, because he’s not.

Andykp wrote:
One thing you say it’s feom a forgeworld book as if that is somehow not as significant as a black library book. This is wrong. I listed on one of your threads about this many examples of the emperor ordering or condoning genocide, enslaving people and deliberately killing off his own troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Onething, you will fail to be able to convince anyone on here the emperor is a good guy, because he’s not.

No, you haven't. Out of all the things you linked, only one was in anyway proof.


For me, what you all said is a load of bs.

I am, hearing a lot of talk, but absolutely no proof in the least for what you say. Post proof, or I call you out. The quote below shows the Great Crusade had moral boundaries.


"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness



What oppressive societies? The Imperial Knight's misogyny?



What makes 40k grimdark is that there is no hope.

Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.

Are you sure?

The Rangdan Xenocides were hostile aliens. Get your facts straight.



Horus was talkig with the Interex, and Erebus ruined it by stealing a Chaos artifact from the Interex.



The Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus.



Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn



Vulkan reported him.


A lot of what you said is out context. And guess what? The Council of Terra on page 28 in the Fulgrim book thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (and Fulgrim rejected because they hdle their beleifs to be comparable to humanity's ,not because they were aliens.



And look.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghenna_Massacre


"In the aftermath of the massacre the Emperor was forced to act and called Angron before him for reprimand..."



Most of what you said is out of context.








I count at least five, and I'm still reading.



Horus Rising said:
'You have no choice!' Abaddon snarled. 'We have seen enough already to know that their ways are in opposition to ours! You must-'
'Must?' Horus roared. 'Must I? You are Mournival, Abaddon! You advise and you counsel, and that is your place! Do not imagine you can tell me what to do!'
'I don't have to! There is no choice, and you know what must be done!'
'Get out!'
'You know it in your heart!'
'Get out!' Horus yelled, and cast aside his drinking cup with such force that it shattered on the steel deck. He glared at Abaddon, teeth clenched. 'Get out, Ezekyle, before I look to find another first captain!'
[...]
Aximand cleared his throat. 'Ezekyle had... a point,' he began. He stiffened as he saw the Warmaster raise his eyebrows.
'Go on, little one.'
'We... that is to say... we prosecute this crusade according to certain doctrines. For two centuries, we have done so. Laws of life, laws on which the Imperium is founded. They are not arbitrary. They were given to us, to uphold, by the Emperor himself.'
'Beloved of all,' Horus said.
'The Emperor's doctrines have guided us since the start. We have never disobeyed them.' Aximand paused, then added, 'Before.'
'You think this is disobedience, little one?' Horus asked. Aximand shrugged. 'What about you, Garviel?' Horus asked. 'Are you with Aximand on this?'
Loken looked back into the Warmaster's eyes. 'I know why we ought to make war upon the interex, sir,' he said. 'What interests me is why you think we shouldn't.'
Horus smiled. 'At last, a thinking man.' He rose to his feet and, carrying his cup carefully, walked across to the right-hand wall of the stateroom, a section of which had been richly decorated with a mural. The painting showed the Emperor, ascendant above all, catching the spinning constellations in his outstretched hand. 'The stars,' Horus said. 'See, there? How he scoops them up? The zodiacs swirl into his grasp like fireflies. The stars are mankind's birthright. That's what he told me. That's one of the first things he told me when we met. I was like a child then, raised up from nothing. He set me at his side, and pointed to the heavens. Those points of light, he said, are what we have been waiting generations to master. Imagine, Horus, every one a human culture, every one a realm of beauty and magnificence, free from strife, free from war, free from bloodshed and the tyrannous oppression of alien overlords. Make no mistake, he said, and they will be ours.'
Horus slowly traced his fingers across the whorl of painted stars until his hand met the image of the Emperor's hand. He took his touch away and looked back at Aximand and Loken.
[...]
'I'll tell you a thing,' said Horus, walking back to them and resuming his seat. 'The first thing my father gave me was an astrological text. It was a simple thing, a child's primer. I have it here somewhere. He noted my wonder at the stars, and wished me to learn and understand.'
He paused. Loken was also captivated whenever Horus began to refer to the Emperor as 'my father'. It had happened a few times since Loken had been part of his inner circle, and on every occasion it had led to unguarded revelations.
There were zodiac charts in it. In the text.’ Horus took a sip of his wine and smiled at the memory. 'I learned them all. In one evening. Not just the names, but the patterns, the associations, the structure. All twenty signs. The next day, my father laughed at my appetite for knowledge. He told me the zodiac signs were old and unreliable models, now that the explorator fleets had begun detailed cosmological mapping. He told me that the twenty signs in the heavens would one day be matched by twenty sons like me. Each son would embody the character and notion of a particular zodiac group. He asked me which one I liked the best.’ 'What did you answer?' Loken asked. Horus sat back, and chuckled. 'I told him I liked all the patterns they made. I told him I was glad to finally have names for the sparks of light in the sky. I told him I liked Leos, naturally for his regal fury and Skorpos, for his armour and warlike blade. I told him that Tauromach appealed to my sense of stubbornness, and Arbitos to my sense of fairness and balance.’ The Warmaster shook his head, sadly. 'My father said he admired my choices, but was surprised I had not picked another in particular. He showed me again the horseman with the bow, the galloping warrior. The dreadful Sagittary, he said. Most warlike of all. Strong, relentless, unbridled, swift and sure of his mark. In ancient times, he told me, this was the greatest sign of all. The centaur, the horse-man, the hunter-warrior, had been beloved in the old ages. In Anatoly in his own childhood, the centaur had been a revered symbol. A rider upon a horse, so he said, armed with a bow. The most potent martial instrument of its age, conquering all before it. Over time, myth had blended horseman and steed into one form. The perfect synthesis of man and war machine. That is what you must learn to be, he told me. That is what you must master. One day, you must command my armies, my instruments of war, as if they were an extension of your own person. Man and horse, as one, galloping the heavens, submitting to no foe. At Ullanor, he gave me this.’
Horus set down his cup, and leaned forward to show them the weathered gold ring he wore on the smallest finger of his left hand. It was so eroded by age that the image was indistinct. Loken thought he could detect hooves, a man's arm, a bent bow.
'It was made in Persia, the year before the Emperor was born. The dreadful Sagittary. This is you now, he said to me. My Warmaster, my centaur. Half man, half army embedded in the Legions of the Imperium. Where you turn, so the Legions turn. Where you move, so they move. Where you strike, so they strike. Ride on without me, my son, and the armies will ride with you.’ There was a long silence. 'So you see.’ Horus smiled. 'I am predisposed to like the dreadful Sagittary, now we meet him, face to face.’
His smile was infectious. Both Loken and Aximand nodded and laughed. 'Now tell them the real reason.’ a voice said. They turned. Sanguineus stood in an archway at the far end of the chamber, behind a veil of white silk. He had been listening. The Lord of Angels brushed the silk hanging aside, and stepped into the stateroom, the crests of his wings brushing the glossy material. He was dressed in a simple white robe, clasped at the waist with a girdle of gold links. He was eating fruit from a bowl. Loken and Aximand stood up quickly. 'Sit down.’ Sanguinius said. 'My brother's in the mood to open his heart, so you had better hear the truth.’
'I don't believe-' Horus began. Sanguinius scooped one of the small, red fruits from his bowl and threw it at Horus.
Tell them the rest.’ he sniggered.
Horus caught the thrown fruit, gazed at it, then bit into it. He wiped the juice off his chin with the back of his hand and looked across at Loken and Aximand.
'Remember the start of my story?' he asked. What the Emperor said to me about the stars? Make no mistake, and they will be ours!
He took another two bites, threw the fruit stone away, and swallowed the flesh before he continued. 'Sanguinius, my dear brother, is right, for Sanguinius has always been my conscience.’
Sanguinius shrugged, an odd gesture for a giant with furled wings.
'Make no mistake' Horus continued. Those three words. Make no mistake. I am Warmaster, by the Emperor's decree. I cannot fail him. I cannot make mistakes.’
'Sir?' Aximand ventured.
'Since Ullanor, little one, I have made two. Or been party to two, and that is enough, for the responsibility for all expedition mistakes falls to me in the final count.’
What mistakes?' asked Loken.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
'I don't believe he would.’ Aximand said.
Then there's Murder.’ Horus continued, ignoring Little Horus's remark. 'Or Spiderland, as the interex has it. What is the way of their name for it again?'
'Urisarach.’ Sanguinius said, helpfully. 'Though I think the word only works with the appropriate harmonic accompaniment.’
'Spiderland will suffice, then.’ said Horus. 'What did we waste there? What misunderstandings did we make? The interex left us warnings to stay away, and we ignored them. An embargoed world, an asylum for the creatures they had bested in war, and we walked straight in.’
'We weren't to know.’ Sanguinius said.
'We should have known!' Horus snapped.
'Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex.’ Aximand said. "We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead, they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.'
'We annihilate.' said Horus. 'They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?'
Aximand rose to his feet. 'I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. The interex is admirable, but it is forgiving and generous in its dealings with xenos breeds who deserve no quarter.’
'It has brought them to book, and learned to live in sympathy.’ said Horus. 'It has trained the kinebrach to-'
'And that's the best example I can offer!' Aximand replied. The kinebrach. It embraces them as part of its culture.’
'I will not make another rash or premature decision.’ Horus stated flatly. 'I have made too many, and my War-mastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far. They are a fine people. Perhaps we can learn from them for a change.’



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rangdan_Xenocides

Onething, just quote blocking stuff does not constitute actual evidence or an argument and frankly it just smacks of disrespect. You don't even try to refute their points, and you're just going in circles now with what you're repeating.

Onething, if you were a general and you actively knew that you had subordinates committing war crimes like rape and killing PoW's, doing nothing but giving lip service of stopping them like just telling them to stop, rather than court martial-ling them, would you say you're still not guilty of being complicit in their crimes as well?

 Grimskul wrote:
Onething, just quote blocking stuff does not constitute actual evidence or an argument and frankly it just smacks of disrespect. You don't even try to refute their points, and you're just going in circles now with what you're repeating.

Onething, if you were a general and you actively knew that you had subordinates committing war crimes like rape and killing PoW's, doing nothing but giving lip service of stopping them like just telling them to stop, rather than court martial-ling them, would you say you're still not guilty of being complicit in their crimes as well?

Alright. I would feel better if we let this subject die.



Horus and Abaddon in Horus Rising muse that the Interex is the first time they have seen alien co-existence. And this was near the end of the Crusade.



And Rangdan Xenocides is an outright lie by that one guy I am talking to, because they were highly dangerous and hostile aliens invading the Imperium.

To the rangdan the emperor and the crusade were highly dangerous aliens invading their space and exterminating them.

You haven’t mentioned the death guard killing millions of men women and CHILDREN. Or the attack on Luna killing lots of weird humans because he wanted their tech. And the fact you don’t seem to get is, if your army is committing genocide, a reprimand isn’t enough to absolve u. U are plain wiring on all counts. I’m not a fan of right mad wrong in 40k fluff but thinking that the emperor was a good guy is naive in the upmost. Because he “liberated” people doesn’t make him a goody. It just makes him the guy choosing the word, liberate over occupy free over enslave.

Planet 63-19 is another example you ignore. Peaceful happy human civilisation exactly like the one they were trying to impose. It resisted. Slaughter ensued. Saying the emperor is good is like saying hitler is. Not because of his politics but hitler believed he had the German people’s best interests at heart just the emperor believes he has humanities at heart and woe betide anyone who disagrees.

Andykp wrote:
To the rangdan the emperor and the crusade were highly dangerous aliens invading their space and exterminating them.

You haven’t mentioned the death guard killing millions of men women and CHILDREN. Or the attack on Luna killing lots of weird humans because he wanted their tech. And the fact you don’t seem to get is, if your army is committing genocide, a reprimand isn’t enough to absolve u. U are plain wiring on all counts. I’m not a fan of right mad wrong in 40k fluff but thinking that the emperor was a good guy is naive in the upmost. Because he “liberated” people doesn’t make him a goody. It just makes him the guy choosing the word, liberate over occupy free over enslave.

Planet 63-19 is another example you ignore. Peaceful happy human civilisation exactly like the one they were trying to impose. It resisted. Slaughter ensued. Saying the emperor is good is like saying hitler is. Not because of his politics but hitler believed he had the German people’s best interests at heart just the emperor believes he has humanities at heart and woe betide anyone who disagrees.

For, Luna, it was conquest. And its not lie everyone was slaughtered.



And Mortarian is one of the more brutal Primarchs. But I will have to research more into it.


You are so amusing. 63-19 was conquered, not destroyed. And it was the fake Imperium that thought it was the real Terra, ruled by a fake Emperor.




Here is a quote from Horus Rising below. It was Horus' own error on dealing with 63-19 in the way he did (and civilians were not slaughtered. They just slaughtered the false Emperor and took control)



'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
63-19 was Horus' own error, and Horus thought the Emperor would have found a peaceful solution.

U dismissed conquering things as if it is a good thing. Invading and conquering are in them selves war crimes. Could he not have bargained with them. Used diplomacy. No. He asked, they so no so killed thousands of them.

The death guard being brutal is irrelevant, they were loyal at the time and the emperor knew what they did. He was complicit in their every action.

63-19 considered their emperor the true one. Their planet the true terra. It all about perspective. They were happily minding their own business and were invaded. I never said destroyed but millions will have died in months of “pacification”. It was an unjustifiable act.


And in another post you didn’t respond to how your not so genocidal emperor applauded the ultramarines for nuking millions of innocent civilians. Please tell me how that was for their own good. It’s incredible that across three threads and all manner of people telling you u are wrong but still insist that it’s ok to go round “conquering” places and killing people. U answer the same two points each time with the same quotes that prove nothing.

Andykp wrote:
U dismissed conquering things as if it is a good thing. Invading and conquering are in them selves war crimes. Could he not have bargained with them. Used diplomacy. No. He asked, they so no so killed thousands of them.

The death guard being brutal is irrelevant, they were loyal at the time and the emperor knew what they did. He was complicit in their every action.

63-19 considered their emperor the true one. Their planet the true terra. It all about perspective. They were happily minding their own business and were invaded. I never said destroyed but millions will have died in months of “pacification”. It was an unjustifiable act.


And in another post you didn’t respond to how your not so genocidal emperor applauded the ultramarines for nuking millions of innocent civilians. Please tell me how that was for their own good. It’s incredible that across three threads and all manner of people telling you u are wrong but still insist that it’s ok to go round “conquering” places and killing people. U answer the same two points each time with the same quotes that prove nothing.

The Emperor not only had nothing tom do with 63-19, but Horus thought the Emperor would have dealt with 63-19 peacefully.



I will have to research more about the Mortarian incident.