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Where are all the competetive lists at that DONT use super falcons or prisms?  Is the falcon really the only competetive HS eldar choice that is considered so?

Personally, I'm more partial to the foot slogging eldar list with WarWalkers in tow.  I dont feature falcons or prism's in my list and have a VERY good track record with WW's.  Not because I think the falcon is a large hunk of cheese (though it would be easy to paint one to look like a triangle cut of swiss), I just find them boring in comparison to the 40 rerollable scatterlaser and starcannon shots that I get every turn from two heavy support choices. 

No doubt that falcons are GREAT transports with decent firepower and ridiculous survivability, but are all Eldar lists inferior to well built Mech lists?

Posted By Deadshane1 on 08/25/2007 5:27 AM

 but are all Eldar lists inferior to well built Mech lists?

Yes.  I mean really, did you have to even ask?

Basically, if you could clone yourself, then the guy with falcons would probably beat the guy without falcons.

I can't think of a better answer than that. "Probably" is the best I could do, but I would say the chance of the falcon guy losing are like 1/4 or even less.

Of course, you don't have to use falcons. Many areas don't have such a high level of competitive play, where other choices can shine, simply because there's not a lot wrong with them.

There's not a lot wrong with WW. Vibro cannons are also pretty damn good. I am saying that falcons are better, but I am not going to say use them or lose.

Posted By onlainari on 08/25/2007 6:21 AM

There's not a lot wrong with WW. Vibro cannons are also pretty damn good. I am saying that falcons are better, but I am not going to say use them or lose.

Quoted for truth.

Raw offensive power lie in vibro cannons and warwalkers.

But if you need a sure bet way to deliver some nasties to the right spot on cue, falcons are the way to go.

I dont use falcons myself, preffering to use 6 walkers and a unit of 2 vibrocannons. I play Saim Hann and go the exact opposite way of being fluffy. But I need the offensive power, not the survivable transport.

Its more challenging to win this way, but then again I view falcon spam to be just as unsavory as using Lash of Fzorgle.

Falcons just made a solid codex into something that is quite....over the top. Its a shame, as everything else is so nice.

Why do you feel ashamed about having a powerful tank at your disposal? Every army book has a few crutch units that players bent on winning can but by no means have to rely on. Like you said yourself you like Vibro Cannons and War Walkers. People still use Wraithlords too and the Fire Prism certainly isn't a bad choice for anyone, so you should be glad there are so many good options available to you. One day you might wish to juice up your list a little to get more success against hard armies or simply to change the way your army plays.

I mostly encounter tournament lists centered around crutch units and other mathematically optimised choices, so if the codex didn't have holo-field Falcons I would be completely handicapped against nearly all my opponents. Now I'm not, and for that I'm glad. My only regret is that units like the "Seer Council", Wraithlord and War Walkers aren't as super as the Falcon, but in no case would I like to make the Falcon worse just to make other units seem more attractive.

Eldar lists without holo-Falcons are still pretty good and can be very competitive... just not with the other uber-lists out there. So unless you are facing Nidzilla, SAFH Marines, or Fzorglorcers Chaos you can do quite well without Falcons. I do agree with Hellfury that except for holo-falcons, the Eldar codex is pretty well balanced. So I guess I disagree with Therion, I don't think any codex should have a 'crutch' unit. The idea just goes against internal balance.

Hopefully in 5th ed they change the skimmers moving fast rules and make Falcons easier to kill.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I like Dark Reapers

I agree with the board here -- in my experience, almost all of the available Eldar heavy choices are good, it's just that holo-falcons are BETTER.

In some scenarios and versus certain opponents, other units really shine -- Wraithlords, in particular, benefit from defensive scenarios and lots of Guardian buddies. But for all-around flexibility, multi-dice-rolling survivability, and a six-man-squad of snakes on the plane, a Falcon can be the ace up your sleeve in almost any situation.

Similar cases show up in other codices -- there's nothing wrong with, say, Retributor Squads for the SoB, but Exorcists just trump all.

-Adso

Blackmoor going 4-0-1 and placing 7th in Vegas using dark reapers shows that you don't need 3xfalcons to do good.

I haven't been on the boards recently but i don't use falcons at all. I never I have in any edition. I love Serpents though and use several of them and have been known to field a prism on occasion.

Actually I have only one stand by in my HS choice and that is the Death Spinner battery. At 90 points it is a great help to me in almost all circumstances. I think I am the only one out there who still fields these things but I have a great win record.

I haveplayed extensivley in the Seattle, WA, Tucson, AZ and Indianapolis, IN areas and have only lost twice this year in maybe 50 games. Once to a guy in Olympia, WA that belonged to the Dead Clown Posse and played necrons and once to a tau player in the Tacoma GW store.

I have won the three RTT's I have played in this year and I am about to enter the 'Ard Boyz tourney here in Indy.

I think it depends a lot more on playing style. Since I have never used the falcon and don't have one assembled (though I own three) I have had to make due without it. I don't really feel that any particular list is difficult to play, only that the players who really understand their armies are difficult. Recently only IG armored company and SoB's have given me much trouble.

Orion

What armies do you most commonly face? Can you give us a sample list and maybe discuss the tactics behind it?

First I will give you my list and then I will discuss my tactics. I try to always play someone I haven't played before that claims to be good but my regular opponents use the aforementioned SoB's with around 11 faith points before martyrdom, Mech eldar, Nids, and Orks. You can see in my list how Armored Co has to be faced carefully and I will address how I use my army to counter this.

At 1750 this is my core list, I usually fiddle with the last 369 pts depending on my mood.

Avatar 155

2 x 10 DA w/exarch 2 shuricats and bladestorm 152ea

2 x 5 Pathfinders 120 ea

10 FireDragons w/exarch dragon's breath and crack shot 177
Dedicated Wave Serp w/ 2L Brightlance/Spirit stones/Vectored Engines 165

10 Harlies w/Shadowseer al with HKiss 250

3 Deathspinners 90

Thats 1381

Some of my more common combos are 2 wraithlords and some extra pathfinders, 2 fire prisms sometimes at base sometimes upgraded to 180 pts ea., another 10 Harlies as above and 2 vibro cannons. etc. or 15 more pathfinders.

During the RTT's I used these three combo's: the Harlies and VC to win best overall (Vs DA termies, Nidzilla, and SoB)
Best General with 2 base (115pt) fire prisms and 5 Swooping hawks w/Exarch both powers (Vs. UltraMEQ, Tau, and Templars)
And another best overall with 15 more Pathfiders. This was fairly easy as it was all city terrain all say and so I had 2+ saves all over the place. (VS. Nidzilla, Ravenwing, and Drop wolves)


My usual plan of attack is based on deployment options and scenario. I will usuall try to build a fire base with intersecting lines of fire between my rangers and Dire avengers. I try to run my Harlies within 12" of my avatar to keep them fearless and if possible tote along one of the DA squads in the 12" radius as well. I also try to bait my opponents into areas where I can zoom my Serp up and let loose with my FD's as they usually only get one really good shot. Then I drop those death spinners anywhere that will make my opponent sweat or into the middle of large blocks of infantry. I also use them to nail hiding basilisks and stop land speeder waves before they can get too close.

When I play I don't really mind losing any single squad but I do try to keep either my harlies or Fire Dragons alive as long as possible as they, along with the Avatar have been game winners for me more often than not.

I also take risks when I have to and try not to worry too much. I beleive that a balanced list doesn't need to rely on any single choice to survive.

When facing a lot of armor I will try to move my avatar towards opponent tanks as quickly as possible regardless of what tank that is. If there are sentinels that is even better as I can throw the wailing doom and still possibly assault the unit. My fire dragons will move up one flank the maximum 24" and then if they survive I will jump out and start moving through the armored line and try to fly my waveserp to hit side and rear armor. I also move the harlies and DA the max distance and fleet until the DA can hit AV10 or the harlies can assault a tank. I will also move the pathfinders (who infiltrate, scout and ignore terrain) up as far as possible and fleet until they can hit some side armor too. I also try to destroy vehicles that will hinder opponents line of sight such as chimeras over leman russes to protect my own troops. I try to keep the maximum pressure on the opponent to hopefull make them split fire too much and lose effectiveness.

If you have any specific questions of how I deal with particular lists I would be glad to answer them.

Orion

and then nobody would use skimmers of any type and GW would not sell models, notice how they are trying to get people to use rhinos and razorbacks again with the new DA and BA dex's after they made them rolling coffins in 4th?

skimmers give up the armor protection of ground vehicles for mobility. take away the protection of mobility and higher armor and the become rather pointless.

 

 

im an admitted tread head but even so  from my past experience in playing the game, mobility is a key issue for me with the armies i face. the lowly transports like the wave serpent or devilfish are far superior in survivability and performace in my experience than some of the spendy elite and fancy units available to the armies in question. i would never hit the table falsonless or serpentless with an eldar force if i played one. you just have to remeber what your units roles are and what they can and can't do.

 

that isn't to say a horde or foot sloggging army can't do the job, itjust becomes different and more difficult in some ways and possibly easier in others.

I agree with the consensus. Falcons are the best HS. If you don't "stuff" them you will get harlies in your face. They can't be reliably shot down. That's not to say I think the rest of the Eldar HS selection is bad, or that it isn't possible to create incredible and successful lists with them, I just think you could do it more easily with the Falcon setup. HQ is similar in my opinion. I'm sure you can have an incredible Eldar list without a farseer/Eldrad. I just think the Eldrad/Farseer approach is the easiest way to get value from your HQ.

Posted By mughi3 on 08/28/2007 3:55 AM

Hopefully in 5th ed they change the skimmers moving fast rules and make Falcons easier to kill.

and then nobody would use skimmers of any type and GW would not sell models, notice how they are trying to get people to use rhinos and razorbacks again with the new DA and BA dex's after they made them rolling coffins in 4th?

That isnt true, GW will still sell plenty of the models, The Falcon is right now the most durable unit in the entire game arguably, tone it down just a bit and it might be the equivalant of a land raider...but still for right around 200 pts.  Nothing wrong with that.

There are also plenty of rhino's out there still, sisters use them to GREAT extent.  At 35 pts apeice its almost a crime not to bring them, at least for mobile cover.

Falcon Holofields NEED to be like a venerable dread (optionally force your opponent to reroll) and not roll two and pick the highest.

That's the only logical fix to a broke-ass rule. Just no real other way to slice it. It's way too cheap and way too good at any price.

But Eldar's not going to get the rewrite they need for a few years, so I guess we suck it up and play with the stupid vehicle rules we have or we don't play at all.

Pick the lowest.

Posted By Therion on 08/28/2007 10:18 AM

not roll two and pick the highest.

Pick the lowest.

I prefer my interpretation of the rule.

I normaly play with 1 falcon, 3 war walkers, and a squad of reapers to cover my heavies. The falcon lives for ever but it doesn't do much damage. The reapers and the war walkers are there to dish out the pain. Most opponents are too buisy trying to kill the falcon to do much to my other units that are laying waste to them. I also tend to use the flacon rather agressivly (flying up into enemy lines) so that they don't really have the option of ignoring it. Makes for a fairly brutal combo but the combo falls apart if I take another falcon or two since that ends up depriving me of my real firepower. The rest of my gunline consists of guardians with heavy weapons, a vyper or two, and a squad or two of pathfinders. I'll also run a squad of banshees or dragons in a serpent for surgical strikes on things that are sitting back and pose a threat to me.

The few times I have tryed playing with more flacons, I've found that I do significantly worse since I start to come up short on firepower.

 then your not balancing it out elseware in the list.

 

a falcons primary job is infatry supression(and light vehicle killing to a lesser extent). with a pulse laser, scatter laser and shuriken cannon that gives you 9 shots, granted its only hitting on 4's and you could change them out for the 1 shot wonder of the prism with a better BS(but it sucks much to miss with that 1 shot as i know al to well with my tau hammerheads). if you back this up with serpents with bright lances and squads of dire avengers you have tank hunting transports and infantry slaughtering bladestorms. or you could switch them out for other fast or elite FOC options. to give you the added firepower.

but remember less firepower is acceptable if they almost never kill you and you stay focused on the mission objective or maintain superior victory points.

My friend plays Eldar at tournaments and is my #1 competition wherever we go and he uses no Falcons, or Wave Serpents.

Posted By Personification on 08/30/2007 10:35 AM
My friend plays Eldar at tournaments and is my #1 competition wherever we go and he uses no Falcons, or Wave Serpents.

Then you need a better list or more practice.

Posted By Longshot on 08/30/2007 11:15 AM

Posted By Personification on 08/30/2007 10:35 AM
My friend plays Eldar at tournaments and is my #1 competition wherever we go and he uses no Falcons, or Wave Serpents.

Then you need a better list or more practice.

I don't think you've been reading the thread. Doesn't this just prove that eldar heavy support options are all viable? Of course the falcon is better, but the point is that not using the falcon doesn't mean your lists sucks...

To back up my point about Dark Reapers, they work best with a Farseer.

If you fortune them and put them in 4+ cover, it takes 6 lascannons on average to kill one. And since they are a priority target, that means that a lot of the fire is not going where you dont want it to.

The thing about Falcons is that they do not kill many marines. I even if you fortune them, BS 3 and the few shots are not going to get you very far. Unlike my Dark Reapers that will take out a squad a turn.

The falcons dominate the scene in top armies, why do you think? Is not because the other HS choices are better for sure.

The falcon have mobility to do most things, even if they dont kill a ton of marines a round, but still a good few. They kill a ton of hordes a round and can drop of some of the hardest CC troops there is, when needed. But the biggest thing is that you almost never get to kill them.

Dark reapers and warwalkers can do lots of damage but are almost stationary, limiting their targets while making them priorites for others.
They are also alot less resilient then the falcons.

that really depends on what your facing

reapers don't scare me much as i run a mechanised marine force where they can't even hurt 70% of my army(or my mech tau where they can't hurt 99% of my army).  they are also much easier to kill than an eldar grav tank.

if i toss enough template weapons in thier general direction they die in droves even using thier 3+ normal armor save.

 

the usefulness of serpent/falcon/prism eldar is denial-yes you will kill stuff(mabey not as much) and get mission objectives but the real key lies in the fact that your enemy cannot kill any of your units very easily, thus giving you the edge when it comes to VPs

Posted By mughi3 on 08/31/2007 3:13 AM

that really depends on what your facing

reapers don't scare me much as i run a mechanised marine force where they can't even hurt 70% of my army(or my mech tau where they can't hurt 99% of my army).  they are also much easier to kill than an eldar grav tank.

I have 2 shots with a BS 5, Strength 8 Missile Launcher that says I can hurt you...badly. And I have the rest of my army with plenty of strength 6 shooting to make you wish that you had brought a different army.

if i toss enough template weapons in thier general direction they die in droves even using thier 3+ normal armor save.

What templates are your Marines and Tau going to throw at them that will kill a re-rollable 3+ save? A vindicator is the only thing, and with the 48" range of the Dark Reapers, they wil be far enough back that your tanks will never make it to them.

the usefulness of serpent/falcon/prism eldar is denial-yes you will kill stuff(mabey not as much) and get mission objectives but the real key lies in the fact that your enemy cannot kill any of your units very easily, thus giving you the edge when it comes to VPs

There is no question that Falcons are good. What I am saying is that Dark Reapers make an excellent partner to 2 Falcons. As far as durablity, again, when you put Dark Reapers in 4+ cover, it takes 6 lascannons on average just to kill one if you have fortune on them. I could go over all of the missions, but lets just say that when you kill a lot of enemy units, you are keeping him from objectives, and in missions like Cleanse you want a scoring unit in your deployment zone to keep your opponent from claiming it, etc. And there are some armies that you would almost prefer them over a Falcon. For example against Godzilla Nids, Dark Reapers will kill a carnifex a turn. It takes about 3 falcons to down 1 carnifex.

Posted By mughi3 on 08/29/2007 3:18 AM

The few times I have tryed playing with more flacons, I've found that I do significantly worse since I start to come up short on firepower.

 then your not balancing it out elseware in the list.

a falcons primary job is infatry supression(and light vehicle killing to a lesser extent). with a pulse laser, scatter laser and shuriken cannon that gives you 9 shots, granted its only hitting on 4's and you could change them out for the 1 shot wonder of the prism with a better BS(but it sucks much to miss with that 1 shot as i know al to well with my tau hammerheads). if you back this up with serpents with bright lances and squads of dire avengers you have tank hunting transports and infantry slaughtering bladestorms. or you could switch them out for other fast or elite FOC options. to give you the added firepower.

but remember less firepower is acceptable if they almost never kill you and you stay focused on the mission objective or maintain superior victory points.

The fire power of a squad of reapers is significantly more than that of a falcon, mostly because they don't get shaken all the time (well to be fair, half the time).  When they are operational, they can pack a fair punch but when they are just moving, they are not so dangerous.  On an even basis, you can swap out a reaper squad for a flacon since they are both ~200 points.  The thing is that doesn't include cargo for the falcon so if you are considering the falcon's cargo, the price jumps up.  In addition, I find avenger squads in serpents to be less effective due to range issues.  They generaly don't get to fire on the first turn (unlike reapers) and once they do land and kill their initial target, they tend to die to return fire and hand to hand.  Reapers tend to stay fairly safe do to the 48" range of their weaponery.  Its difficult to close the gap to them since you have to go though most of the rest of the eldar army to get there.  Long range shooting can be effective if you are lobbing lots of ap 3 shots at them or really a lot of other shots, but spending that kind of fire power on them requires a large devotion of heavy weaponery.

Your milage may vary, but I find that my long range shooting units (reapers and war walkers) get the MVP distinction way more often than does my falcon.  I also find that they die about as often.

on a few issues

 

guide and fortune

first an eldar amry has to have a farseer, it has to be in range to cast those powers(asuming they are not using thepowers on other units) and it must go first.

all of thise things must work togetther to make reapers truely useful.

remember that even flashlights will kill a reaper, it takes a heavy weapon to kill a falcon and even then its a tough prospect.

 

reaper weapons-

reapers are very good at doing 1 thing-killing MEQs the 2 shots fromt the exarcs missle launcher are a threat but in an armor heavy environment(especially one with skimmers) he alone is not as threatening. also like dev squads the are not mobile and it is quite easy to position yourself to deny them shots and/or make them move to get said shots.

 

more dakka

even if you happen to get fortune cast on the reapers, laying enough wounds on them still does the job nicely.

 

ive fought eldar many times i also run a mechanised tau army with 8 tanks at 1850 and from my experience i don't really fear reapers. they die to easily and are to little of a threat to my armies. falcons and serpents on the other hande have the mobile firepower and survivability to hurt me and take mission objectives away from me.

 

I think you all are looking at this without considering the earlier statement that the eldar work best by using the synergy of all of its units. In armies that take a falcon, it is usually supported by at least one other falcon. As was stated in the white dwarf recently if you double the amount of tanks in an army you will quadruple thier effectiveness.

With Dark reapers, you must also have many other deadly and threatening units to ensure that if you lose them you haven't lost all of your heavy firepower.

I don't use falcons, occasionally I use reapers. The missile launcher is great against tau skimmers because you hit on 2+ and will glance on 4+. But if that is the majority of your anti tank weaponry, regardless of cover, fortune, or saves, no single unit will be able to weather all of the Tau shooting in one turn with out a massive luck factor.

Lastly, the simple fact that Falcon's move extremely fast, can't be ignored, must be fired upon, and can more easily adapt to any other type of army gives you a tactical flexibility that is hard to match with multiple units of reapers on their own. I support my reapers with several wave serpents (while easier to kill when hit, usually harder to glance due to the force field), an avatar, and a squad of charging harlequins that will often distract even experienced opponents because none of those units can be ignored either.

In my army if I take reapers I use them not as an offensive hammer but rather to deny the enemy an easy advance and force them to deploy out of range of the DR so as not to risk too much if they don't go first.

If I were to use Eldrad I would use a reaper unit or two to deny one flank and then reposition them to fire on the tightly concentrated enemy after deployment.

Orion