Question about WBB and a rez orb

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**Sinjin**

Like most who don't play Necrons, I have only a vague idea how all their special crap works. It's all very confusing. But I ran into this situation yesterday, and wanted to know the proper way to handle it, as we just started a campaign, and it's likely to happen again.

I was playing Nid's, my opponent was playing Necrons.

I was able to assault his 2 squads or warriors. 1 squad was assaulted by 2 four-bug squads of genestealers, and the other squad was assaulted by a single genestealer and a Lictor. Both warrior squads were within a few inches of each other, and within six inches of a lord with rez orb (destroyer body and war scythe) who was not in the combat.

My 2 bigger squads of stealers rended the 1 warrior squad into tiny metal pieces. Normally he can't WBB because rending is a CC attack that does not allow a save, but the Lord with rez orb is nearby.

So my questions are thus…

1) What happens to the warriors that stand up (remember, the squad was completely wiped out by the stealers)? Are they still engaged to the stealers, do they join the other warriors that are only inches away, join the Lord, or stand up anywhere they want?

2) Is the 6 inch rez orb rule on a model per model basis, or a whole squad? In other words, if one model of a squad is within 6, can the whole squad WBB? Or only MODELS within 6" of the lord?

3) Can the lord with rez orb, use the rez orb on himself? This really doesn't seem right, as this means the ONLY way to kill him is to get him to run from combat, and catch him in a sweeping advance.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

**don_mondo**

1. Join the nearest unit of the same type

2. Squad

3. Yep, he sure can

**Jmznudd**

1) Since the entire squad was destroyed, any warriors that stand back up from a successful WBB will join the nearest warrior squad (within 12 inches). If there is a Tomb Spyder nearby, that distance is the entire battlefield. Because the stealers wiped out the unit, they are no longer in combat. For victory point purposes that Necron unit is considered destroyed.

2) The 6 inch rez orb rule is based on the squad, not the model. So as long as one model from a squad is within 6 inches of the orb, the entire squad gets it. Imagine the cluster that would happen if all Necron models were forced to be within 6 inches of the lords. The Necron would be pie plate fodder!

3) The lord can always rez orb himself. Its fair because he still only has a 50-50 chance of standing back up (and with only 1 wound unless he takes other wargear). I've had Necron lords stand back up 3-4 times in a game. I've had other games where the Lord was dead early in round 2 and never stood back up.

Hope this helps

-Jmz

**Jmznudd**

Posted By don_mondo on 10/04/2007 7:10 AM
1. Join the nearest unit of the same type

2. Squad

3. Yep, he sure can

Hehe, two IFLers giving the goods.

-Jmz

**Sinjin**

Thank you for the quick replies.

Ok, so what happens to the destroyed warrior squad if there is no other warrior squad nearby? They can still WBB because of the orb, but there is no other unit (except the lord) within 12 inches. What happens then?

Edit: Also, could someone point me to the appropriate rules section which tells that WBB is based on squads not models?

**Halfpast_Yellow**

Lol, oh dear. WBB is allowed if there is a like model within 6" of the model rolling for WBB, not 12" That's a large difference!

Pg 15 should help you with Orbs.

**yakface**

Posted By Sinjin on 10/04/2007 7:31 AM

Thank you for the quick replies.

Ok, so what happens to the destroyed warrior squad if there is no other warrior squad nearby? They can still WBB because of the orb, but there is no other unit (except the lord) within 12 inches. What happens then?

Edit: Also, could someone point me to the appropriate rules section which tells that WBB is based on squads not models?

WBB may not be attempted by a model if it doesn't meet certain criteria, one of those being that there must be a unit of the same type within 6" (unless there is a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the model attempting WBB).

If that criteria isn't met then the model doesn't get to attempt a WBB. So in your example above, models in the wiped out unit would just be lost because there are no units of a similar type within 6", regardless of the fact that the Rez Orb allows him to ignore some other WBB criteria.

As for page numbers, I don't have the codex in front of me right now but all the rules for WBB are found in the front of the codex in one big section called "We'll Be Back!". You would also want to read the rules for hte Ressurection Orb too in the wargear section of the codex.

**Bookwrack**

WBB is on page 13, the Res Orb is on page 15.

**Sinjin**

Posted By yakface on 10/04/2007 6:20 PM
WBB may not be attempted by a model if it doesn't meet certain criteria, one of those being that there must be a unit of the same type within 6" (unless there is a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the model attempting WBB).

Ok, so if there is no similar model type within 6" then you cannot WBB regardless of to presence of an orb?

Then how does a Lord rez orb himself?

**Brother Tiberius**

Posted By Sinjin on 10/05/2007 7:03 AM

Then how does a Lord rez orb himself?

The Orb rule, or a FAQ, (I don't have the books infront of me) specifically allows the Lord to ressurect himself without a similar model nearby.

**yakface**

Posted By Sinjin on 10/05/2007 7:03 AM

Posted By yakface on 10/04/2007 6:20 PM
WBB may not be attempted by a model if it doesn't meet certain criteria, one of those being that there must be a unit of the same type within 6" (unless there is a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the model attempting WBB).

Ok, so if there is no similar model type within 6" then you cannot WBB regardless of to presence of an orb?

Then how does a Lord rez orb himself?

The Lord is specifically allowed in the rules to ignore the need to be within 6" of a model of the same type.

The Rez Orb rules themselves specify that it works on the Lord himself when he has one.

Those two rules together means that a Lord with a Rez Orb will always get to attempt WBB, no matter what (it's horrible I know. I hate it too).

**Brother Bartius**

Posted By yakface on 10/05/2007 8:18 PM

Posted By Sinjin on 10/05/2007 7:03 AM

Posted By yakface on 10/04/2007 6:20 PM
WBB may not be attempted by a model if it doesn't meet certain criteria, one of those being that there must be a unit of the same type within 6" (unless there is a Tomb Spyder within 12" of the model attempting WBB).

Ok, so if there is no similar model type within 6" then you cannot WBB regardless of to presence of an orb?

Then how does a Lord rez orb himself?

The Lord is specifically allowed in the rules to ignore the need to be within 6" of a model of the same type.

The Rez Orb rules themselves specify that it works on the Lord himself when he has one.

Those two rules together means that a Lord with a Rez Orb will always get to attempt WBB, no matter what (it's horrible I know. I hate it too).

Me too.

The amount of games I've played where I've killed the lord 3 or 4 times per game are unbelievable.

He's like a damn jack-in-the-box.

**coredump**

While the Orb will effect the entire squad, if one necron is within 6"; the requirement of a like model being within 6" is on a *model by model* basis.

So if you have 2 warrior squads near a lord with Orb

A_A_A_A_A_A_A_L/O_B_B_B_B_B_B_B_B_B

If all of A dies to rending, then they all get the benefit of being near the orb. But only the ones within 6" of B will actually get a WBB roll, not the entire unit.

**Wehrkind**

All of this is reminding me of how glad I am they are turning We'll be Back into Feel No Pain in the new codex. Of course Warriors and Immortals are also said to be getting T5, and given the nightmare I had trying to kill plague marines yesterday, I am not comforted in the least.

**coredump**

I want them to keep WBB instead of FNP, but making the rules a bit easier to understand would help.

**TheGreatAvatar**

Posted By Wehrkind on 10/07/2007 8:00 AM
All of this is reminding me of how glad I am they are turning We'll be Back into Feel No Pain in the new codex. Of course Warriors and Immortals are also said to be getting T5, and given the nightmare I had trying to kill plague marines yesterday, I am not comforted in the least.

That's not going to happen. That rumor started as a wish list on Warseer that got posted here as a rumor that then got reposted on Warseer as substantiated rumor.

Replacing WBB with FNP will make the Necron army to powerful. With WBB a downed model does interact until the following turn. Thus a unit of ten Immortals that suffers four wounds is reduced to six with the potential of getting, on average, two back but fights the rest of the turn as a six model unit. With FNP the unit, on average, would make two 'saves' and would now be an eight model unit. That's a huge difference in how the army plays.

**yakface**

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 10/08/2007 8:45 AM

That's not going to happen. That rumor started as a wish list on Warseer that got posted here as a rumor that then got reposted on Warseer as substantiated rumor.

Replacing WBB with FNP will make the Necron army to powerful. With WBB a downed model does interact until the following turn. Thus a unit of ten Immortals that suffers four wounds is reduced to six with the potential of getting, on average, two back but fights the rest of the turn as a six model unit. With FNP the unit, on average, would make two 'saves' and would now be an eight model unit. That's a huge difference in how the army plays.

First off, you really can't just say that replacing WBB with FNP will make Necrons "too powerful" because you have no idea of the other changes that are being made to the codex.

Second, (I mean this in the nicest possible way) I have to think that you are absolutely insane if you believe that FNP is a better ability than WBB.

WBB give thes the Necron player a tremendous advantage because the opponent cannot fully utilize his shooting and assaults and doesn't really know what the enemy army will look like until the Necron player's turn.

For example, say there are 4 Necrons in a unit (Unit A) that are six inches in front of a second Necron unit (unit B). A Necron Lord is joined to unit B.

Now, under the current rules the best the opposing player can do is to knock down all 4 Necrons in unit A and hope that none of them get back up to join unit B, but he won't know whether that is going to happen until after his turn is over.

With FNP if he fails to kill any models from unit B he will know during his turn because FNP is taken immediately. Therefore he can fire at unit A with more of units or even assault unit A with his units. He simply wouldn't have that option with WBB as he would be unable to fire or assault anymore at unit A once it is knocked down so his only way to make sure they "stay dead" would be to wipe out unit B too (a very hard task to accomplish).

So in short, FNP is far inferior to WBB because it gives the opponent much more tactical information which thereby allows them to immediately respond to that information.

**Wehrkind**

That's a really good point Yak, I hadn't considered that part myself.
Does WBB get negated by power weapons? That would also be a downside of getting FNP.

Still... hate, hate HATE plague marines...

**TheGreatAvatar**

Posted By yakface on 10/08/2007 12:23 PM

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 10/08/2007 8:45 AM

That's not going to happen. That rumor started as a wish list on Warseer that got posted here as a rumor that then got reposted on Warseer as substantiated rumor.

Replacing WBB with FNP will make the Necron army to powerful. With WBB a downed model does interact until the following turn. Thus a unit of ten Immortals that suffers four wounds is reduced to six with the potential of getting, on average, two back but fights the rest of the turn as a six model unit. With FNP the unit, on average, would make two 'saves' and would now be an eight model unit. That's a huge difference in how the army plays.

First off, you really can't just say that replacing WBB with FNP will make Necrons "too powerful" because you have no idea of the other changes that are being made to the codex.

Second, (I mean this in the nicest possible way) I have to think that you are absolutely insane if you believe that FNP is a better ability than WBB.

WBB give thes the Necron player a tremendous advantage because the opponent cannot fully utilize his shooting and assaults and doesn't really know what the enemy army will look like until the Necron player's turn.

For example, say there are 4 Necrons in a unit (Unit A) that are six inches in front of a second Necron unit (unit B). A Necron Lord is joined to unit B.

Now, under the current rules the best the opposing player can do is to knock down all 4 Necrons in unit A and hope that none of them get back up to join unit B, but he won't know whether that is going to happen until after his turn is over.

With FNP if he fails to kill any models from unit B he will know during his turn because FNP is taken immediately. Therefore he can fire at unit A with more of units or even assault unit A with his units. He simply wouldn't have that option with WBB as he would be unable to fire or assault anymore at unit A once it is knocked down so his only way to make sure they "stay dead" would be to wipe out unit B too (a very hard task to accomplish).

So in short, FNP is far inferior to WBB because it gives the opponent much more tactical information which thereby allows them to immediately respond to that information.

Conversely, with WBB the unit of four Necron that are down for one unit of fire won't bet back up until the next turn. Thus the the opponent can fire at the next nearest unit with the intent of denying WBB for the models. With FNP, the unit A stands a good chance of making two saves. Thus a second unit must fire at unit A to eliminate it before unit B is even addressed.

And as I pointed out previously, if a unit of Necrons with WBB suffers wounds, those wounds stay down until next turn. Thus the unit has less models until next turn. With FNP, half those models continue to fight for the turn.

In both case FNP provides a far better advantage to the Necron player then the opponent.

**yakface**

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 10/08/2007 4:48 PM

Conversely, with WBB the unit of four Necron that are down for one unit of fire won't bet back up until the next turn. Thus the the opponent can fire at the next nearest unit with the intent of denying WBB for the models. With FNP, the unit A stands a good chance of making two saves. Thus a second unit must fire at unit A to eliminate it before unit B is even addressed.

And as I pointed out previously, if a unit of Necrons with WBB suffers wounds, those wounds stay down until next turn. Thus the unit has less models until next turn. With FNP, half those models continue to fight for the turn.

In both case FNP provides a far better advantage to the Necron player then the opponent.

It seems to me that you think having a FNP save somehow makes Necron models somehow more resilient. On a model-by-model basis this simply is not true. Both rules give the model an additional 4+ save but with WBB the downed model is impervious to further shooting or assault damage until it stands back up.

Again, that ability makes it impossible for opponents to fully be in control of the game unless they are able to wipe out entire units of nearby Necrons at once (something that is not very easy to do).

Or another real-world example: I can't tell you how many games I've played against Necrons who have a Lord with Rez Orb. I may have 10 Lascannons with nothing better to do then shoot at the Lord but once he goes down to one Lascannon I cannot commit any more shooting or assaults to making sure he stays down. I simply have to wait and see if I get lucky on the 50/50 WBB roll at the start of the next turn.

You also keep talking about how the Necron player has "less models" until the next turn, but since the Necron player isn't able to use his models to deal damage in his opponent's turn (besides being charged or already engaged in close combat--something Necrons don't really excel in) this really is much more of a negative to an opponent rather than a positive.

I do fully admit that having less models on the table does make it slightly easier for Necron units to fail morale checks and definitely makes them a bit weaker in combat (and more prone to being outnumbered and run-down) but I strongly, strongly contend that these negatives are far outweighed by the amazing ability to control the flow of the game by constantly forcing the opponent to not know how many enemies they will be facing in the next turn.

Opponents have to constantly think and manuever with the thought in their head: "what will I do if 'X' many of those Necrons get back up next turn? What will I do if all of them stand back up?" etc.

But ultimately, the real piece of the puzzle comes down to what GW does with Tomb Spyders, the Rez Orb and the Monolith's portal. . .or if they even keep the Rez Orb and/or the WBB effect of the Tomb Spyder and Monolith portal in any fashion.

What GW decides to do with these things (or anything else that fills their current role) will definitely have a major impact on whether FNP turns out to be more or less useful than WBB.

Hell, with phase-out rumored to be removed I wouldn't be surprised if GW doesn't totally jettison the current Rez Orb concept and let the FNP rule stand on its own. If that's the case the ability to reliably ignore FNP with Instant Death weapons and close combat weapons that ignore armor saves is really going to make fighting Necrons a whole lot more strategic.

But regardless I completely look forward to FNP because I will finally be able to have more control in fighting against Necrons and not so much will be determined by the almighty 50/50 roll of WBB.