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the_scotsman wrote:

Versatilebeats wrote:
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.

On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)

the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.

With the Strategem, that would bumped up a little too.

One thing to remember too, though, is that the Exorcists + Canoness would still give you a CP for existing, which is beneficial in it's own right.

Man I wish our HQs were cheaper.

Versatilebeats wrote:
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

As a Sisters player, Exorcists are Ok, but not great. They use a lot of CPs to reroll shot numbers. Now that they moved up to D6 damage they aren't a joke anymore, but they still suffer from the huge issue of randomness. If they are your main anti-tank I would qualify them as inadequate, and without Aura buffing from the Sisters warlord and Celestine they lose one of their big advantages (4++).

For the question earlier about Custodes Terminators, I think one of the better ways to use them is to take a unit of 5-6 of them, deepstrike them into your opponents backfield, then use Unleash the Lions on them. Then your opponent essentially has 6 individual characters running around punching stuff and creating havoc. It's not bad, expensive though

 Creeping Dementia wrote:


As a Sisters player, Exorcists are Ok, but not great. They use a lot of CPs to reroll shot numbers. Now that they moved up to D6 damage they aren't a joke anymore, but they still suffer from the huge issue of randomness. If they are your main anti-tank I would qualify them as inadequate, and without Aura buffing from the Sisters warlord and Celestine they lose one of their big advantages (4++).

Exorcists get Shield of Faith right? With a brazier 'ness that then becomes a pretty sturdy midfield deny bubble, and possible distraction 'fex for backfield VenDreads/CMorts.

They do get Shield of Faith, they just don't get 'Order' benefits.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
They do get Shield of Faith, they just don't get 'Order' benefits.

But they still have the <Order> keyword correct? My understanding is that the Brazier keys off of that, not AoF or anything else.

As long as they get their reroll from the Canonness, that's all that matters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
As long as they get their reroll from the Canonness, that's all that matters.

I'm still not convinced they're all that useful. 3 vendreads and a captain cost 110 points more and deal 33% more damage vs knights, 25% more damage vs standard vehicles. The loyal 32 giving FIVE for 180 is one thing, but 400 for 1 when you can get 510 for 1 staying in-faction and dealing more damage for your points, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to resolve.

Maybe put them in a cheap soup detachment with some min troops, but at that point I think the job is done much better with a stygies admech battalion with 1 domi, 1 TP, 3 min skitarii squads and 3 neutron lasers.

576 points, 5 command points, -1 to hit, 11.82 damage on average vs knights, heal 2d3 wounds per turn, same invuln save the sisters tanks get, and for 1cp you can tell that -2 to hit alaitoc hemlock to feth right off because you still hit him on 3s rerolling 1s.

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
As long as they get their reroll from the Canonness, that's all that matters.

I'm still not convinced they're all that useful. 3 vendreads and a captain cost 110 points more and deal 33% more damage vs knights, 25% more damage vs standard vehicles. The loyal 32 giving FIVE for 180 is one thing, but 400 for 1 when you can get 510 for 1 staying in-faction and dealing more damage for your points, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to resolve.

Maybe put them in a cheap soup detachment with some min troops, but at that point I think the job is done much better with a stygies admech battalion with 1 domi, 1 TP, 3 min skitarii squads and 3 neutron lasers.

576 points, 5 command points, -1 to hit, 11.82 damage on average vs knights, heal 2d3 wounds per turn, same invuln save the sisters tanks get, and for 1cp you can tell that -2 to hit alaitoc hemlock to feth right off because you still hit him on 3s rerolling 1s.

Y'all know what's funny is that I was in the middle of making a post regarding potential AdMech Anti-Tank and then my phone did a thing.

What's nice about the Lasers is the somewhat consistent damage, due to a minimum of 3. I never mathed it out though as I mostly stuck with the Icarus Array, which is definitely something to be considered. Hitting a lot of targets on a 2+ is certainly nothing to sneeze at with how much it shoots.

the_scotsman wrote:
Chaplain dreadnoughts might be something to think about from FW for deathwatch. Unless I'm wrong, nothing stops them from getting SIA, so you'd get a character dread with 2 CCW arms, an invuln save, 8 SIA shots and a cute little strength buff for 164 points.

I kind of agree most vehicles seem terrible. Maybe the whirlwind hyperios for 120 points for a bit of anti-fly punch?

Something like the following for pure deathwatch:

Brigade detachment

Relic Blade Termie Captain
Standard captain (warlord: Ignores Cover trait, Relic: Lieutenanting For Dummies)
Terminator Libby

3x5 Vets with Stalker Boltguns
3x kill teams with 7 SS/SB vets, 1 maul/SB terminator, 1 double bolt pistol vanguard

Primaris Apothecary
2x Las/ML vendreads

3x Tarantula guns

Quadlas Mortis Contemptor
2x Whirlwind Hyperios with Hyperios Launchers

Data sheet needs the Special Issue Ammunition special rule, which I don't think it does.

Inside DW, triple-HKM Leviathans are top dog (man I feel like a broken record) alongside the new contemptor imo.

Outside it's the Castallan, right? Yeah, afraid so. If we're souping in AT it's a shoe-in. Tank Commanders are really decent now too, I'm trying a loyal 30 + 2 TCs at the moment, they do good work if they get a few rounds on the table.

 grouchoben wrote:
Inside DW, triple-HKM Leviathans are top dog (man I feel like a broken record) alongside the new contemptor imo.

Outside it's the Castallan, right? Yeah, afraid so. If we're souping in AT it's a shoe-in. Tank Commanders are really decent now too, I'm trying a loyal 30 + 2 TCs at the moment, they do good work if they get a few rounds on the table.

But then you're giving up what makes that loyal cannon fodder so flexible and capable - orders.

I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?

Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.

I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.

I wouldn't go full Primaris, especially post CA2018, but they still have their place.

The Redemptor is sadly not a good option for Deathwatch. It's best configuration is for killing infantry, which is the DW specialty.

The Interblaster Fortis team (5x Ints, 5x Hellblasters) is a favorite of mine, and I usually run two out of deep strike. The 15 inch rapid fire range on the plasma means pretty much anything that isnt a Knight is going to die in one salvo, usually with a secondary target also slagged or severely bracketed.

Honorable mention to the 5x Auto Bolt Rifle Int, 1x Aggressor skirmisher team, though they're pretty solidly outclassed by the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad nowadays.

 Stus67 wrote:
I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?

Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.

I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.

TLDR:

regular space marines have more flexible loadouts, generally meaning if you're competitively minded you can squeeze more out of min-maxing their loadout. Primaris marines by nature of being fixed and having a distinct damage spike vs any D2 weaponry have an in-built achilles heel. They do the same job, just slightly worse in slightly more matchups. If you face a meta heavy with low-quality firepower (DE Venomspam, maybe an IG horde list type deal) then primaris can have value, but they are a tad bit rigid.

It is also nice that they have the option of applying turn 1 pressure by their transport not being total deadweight (repulsors are kind of like somewhat more viable land raiders, and if you take a fortis team with no inceptor you can optionally deploy in one of the repulsors instead of deep striking.)

Best basic team IMO is 5x intercessors with bolt rifles, 4x hellblasters with the basic rapid fire guns, and 1x inceptor with plasma, using the deep strike stratagem 3x. Throw in the loyal 32, a couple repulsors/redemptor dreads with a dedicated babysitting captain, second captain to advance up out of one of the redemptors to try and make sure he's in position to buff the deep strike, and a primaris apothecary to run up alongside him (if you're dumping 60 wounds down onto the table you might as well get some mileage out of that apothecary).

That's a pretty good place to start. Hell of a cheap list to build, too - almost everything you want can be ebayed from Dark Imperium or bought ez-build, and those primaris guys might as well be monopose anyway so what difference does it make. Your most laughable expense is gonna be the stupid 35$ apothecary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FWIW, I'm realizing as I describe it that playing a full primaris marine army sounds about as interesting as going to see the new experimental classical music piece "F Sharp For 67 Minutes Straight".

You just get shot turn 1, deep strike 30 bodies turn 2, and hope your wall of monopose marine meat flops their army to death before their army can grind through it.

Well, to each their own.

I have been playing my primaris force as DW and have had some pretty solid success in my meta which is NOT a highly competitive one as nobody uses LOWs unless agreed upon so take what I say within that context of good lists, but not tournament worthy lists.

Primaris DW really has three core pillars of strength

1: The Intercessor.
He is good for his points. The addition of SIA for 1 point is a MASSIVE boost to their offensive output and the tactic to re-roll 1s against certain units map wide is also pretty darn useful. They are the core of your army and fill a really nice niche there. Of course they are chronically weak to D2, but hey that's part of the experience of playing Primaris forces. You have to just accept that handicap and deal with it.

2. Mix squads.
Core marines can set up really nice castles with banners, hellblasters and aggressors letting them deal damage back when they die. Deathwatch on the other hand can mix in aggressors and hellblasters with the less valuable (but still good) intercessors to provide additional meathshields and a more versatile unit that is not restricted by the 6inch aura of the banner. When an enemy fires at a unit of hellblasters every kill is on a hellblaster. When they fire at a DW squad they have to chew through a minimum of 5 intercessors to get to the valuable bits.

3. Teleportation
Being able to deep strike your units is really nice. It can really help you get into position and make up for your lack of mobility in a big way.

If you are going to run pure primaris DW is for sure the best for that, but I would say they are inferior to veterans (3++ for 2 points is just silly), but can perform in a more moderate gaming environment.

Oh one big weakness I feel sometimes goes overlooked is morale. Primaris with the sergeant are only LD8 and if you get big squads of 10 you can very easily start to lose boys to morale. For that reason I like to not go past 7 boys.

 Stus67 wrote:
I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?

Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.

I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.

They aren't as competitive an option as mini marines. They were close before CA2018, but now the gap grew in favour of Vets.

So for mobile anti-infantry, start with 5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifle, add at least 1 bolt Aggressor, and tweak from there. Can focus on SIA and just keep adding Intercessors. If you do that, considering swapping one out for a Reiver giving you their special rules for that unit, which are situational but decent. Or you could go hardcore and just add 4 Aggressors and 1 Inceptor, giving the unit 20 T5 wounds, 2+ in save, and providing ablative wounds so your Aggressors can get into position and double fire. The inceptor is optional, but gives you the ability to fall back and shoot. You'll do more damage, but if something charges you to try and silence you, you're probably better off staying in the thick of it using those 8 to 11 power fist attacks (depending on if you equip the sarge with one) alongside 10 S4 attacks as well.

So in summary, common builds are...

Mobile SIA board control
5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules

Resilient dakkabase
5 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
4 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
1 Inceptor
- the most dangerous of the bunch, but expensive
- advance it so you're within 18'' of something, plop on an objective in cover, and hose bullets
- T5 majority, 2 wounds a piece, and 2+ save in cover

Bullies
6 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
2 Reivers w/ bolt carbine
2 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
- you'll combat squad this one into two great bully units of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, 1 Aggressor

So for heavier stuff, start with 5 bolt rifle Intercessors and add 5 Hellblasters. Consider an Inceptor here as well to avoid getting the unit shut down in melee. In some cases the Inceptor is somewhat optional since this is a perfect unit for the Teleportarium, which gives you a lot of control over the retaliation due to placement and their range, saving you points.

Stay away from the heavy version of the weapons for both rifles and plasma.

Go dakka all the way on the Dreadnought. You want to use that fist, so you want to be moving, but it's a platform that is affected by the heavy weapon penalty so volume of shots helps alleviate that issue.

Lemondish wrote:

Mobile SIA board control
5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules

Personal variant on this:

6 Intercessors
2 Aggressors
2 Reivers

Combat down to two teams of 3x Ints, 1x Agg, 1x Reiv.

Hey presto, MSU skirmishers that can do some pretty tasty stuff in support of other specialized squads.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, what are good FW Picks for DW?

The Leviathan is probably the top pick, though that's a little less of an absolute now. It's big advantage is simply that a pair of Storm Cannon Arrays can do pretty disgusting things in tandem with the DW to-hit/wound rerolls and the +to-wound strategems. It's a pretty incredible amount of firepower to buff. Pound for pound, the Mortis Contemptor is probably the best Dreadnought overall now. The chassis is just in a really good place, making it probably the best mount for our heavy weapon options. Vehicles generally aren't worth it. We don't really need them, they're not really that efficient and they don't benefit from buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like a mix of Vet and Primaris marines personally. The extra range and natural AP on Intercessors make them nice for defending positions. Aggressors take DW buffs crazy well and make for very mobile foot sloggers. Vets are very efficient though and definitely serve an important role.

Lemondish wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?

Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.

I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.

They aren't as competitive an option as mini marines. They were close before CA2018, but now the gap grew in favour of Vets.

So for mobile anti-infantry, start with 5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifle, add at least 1 bolt Aggressor, and tweak from there. Can focus on SIA and just keep adding Intercessors. If you do that, considering swapping one out for a Reiver giving you their special rules for that unit, which are situational but decent. Or you could go hardcore and just add 4 Aggressors and 1 Inceptor, giving the unit 20 T5 wounds, 2+ in save, and providing ablative wounds so your Aggressors can get into position and double fire. The inceptor is optional, but gives you the ability to fall back and shoot. You'll do more damage, but if something charges you to try and silence you, you're probably better off staying in the thick of it using those 8 to 11 power fist attacks (depending on if you equip the sarge with one) alongside 10 S4 attacks as well.

So in summary, common builds are...

Mobile SIA board control
5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules

Resilient dakkabase
5 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
4 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
1 Inceptor
- the most dangerous of the bunch, but expensive
- advance it so you're within 18'' of something, plop on an objective in cover, and hose bullets
- T5 majority, 2 wounds a piece, and 2+ save in cover

Bullies
6 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
2 Reivers w/ bolt carbine
2 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
- you'll combat squad this one into two great bully units of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, 1 Aggressor

So for heavier stuff, start with 5 bolt rifle Intercessors and add 5 Hellblasters. Consider an Inceptor here as well to avoid getting the unit shut down in melee. In some cases the Inceptor is somewhat optional since this is a perfect unit for the Teleportarium, which gives you a lot of control over the retaliation due to placement and their range, saving you points.

Stay away from the heavy version of the weapons for both rifles and plasma.

Go dakka all the way on the Dreadnought. You want to use that fist, so you want to be moving, but it's a platform that is affected by the heavy weapon penalty so volume of shots helps alleviate that issue.

The Reivers are largely pointless, but the idea of combat squads with 4 Intercessors and 1 Aggressor was something I actually didn't think about. I was originally doing two separate squads of 5 Intercessors and an Aggressor, but I might as well do a 10 man squad of 8 Intercessors and 2 Aggressors.

Good call. I forget Combat Squads actually work for this army compared to other Loyalist Scum armies.

It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Thanks for the input guys. It'll help me out when it comes to building them. My local meta isn't super competitive and I don't plan on making my DW competitive either so all this info is pretty good.

Sterling191 wrote:
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.

Yeah, what kills me on reivers is that they're trapped in a unit that can only have pillows for fists. The only way I'd put one in is if I was planning on combat-squadding into 2 squads, one with 3 aggressors, 1 inceptor, and 1 reiver.

And even then, that'd be bad, becuse those units are not particularly good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.

It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.

It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.

Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.

Not even close to reality, but sure. Fine. Save your two points and embrace the meta cookie cutter.

So nice to see the "hey we've got storm shields, we dont give a feth about actually thinking" mindset is already kicking in.

Any tips for a 1750points list?
I always feel like im missing something...1-2 support units.

And its hard to do something useful turn 1 when everything important waits in Deepstrike. Is it the VetTeam with Shields and FragCanons or Hellblasters or a LevDread. The Watchmaster is such a big force multiplier its almost crazy.

Always feels like Im lacking something in 1750point games. Even when going for pure Deathwatch

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Any tips for a 1750points list?
I always feel like im missing something...1-2 support units.

And its hard to do something useful turn 1 when everything important waits in Deepstrike. Is it the VetTeam with Shields and FragCanons or Hellblasters or a LevDread. The Watchmaster is such a big force multiplier its almost crazy.

Always feels like Im lacking something in 1750point games. Even when going for pure Deathwatch

I've seen two different solutions to this tried by myself and a buddy of mine.

I tend to run the non-deepstrike half of my list in extreme defense posture. a fairly heavy detachment of admech allies, -1 to hit doctrine, using the Shroudpsalm stratagem turn 1 for cover on everybody. Allies anvil, deathwatch hammer. If they kill something it's a nice bonus.

the other guy doesn't like the all deepstrike all the time strategy, and tends to want to have the option to go for turn 1 tempo instead with his list. He runs a 5 hellblaster/5 intercessor fortis team and has a Repulsor (so he can deploy in it or in deep strike), a couple bike units with homers as well as a jump HQ with the Beacon, so he can stick stuff out of LOS and jump forward turn 1 with that beacon.

Basically his MO is against enemies that will come to him, he deploys in the "turn 1 tempo" mode, and in enemies he wants to go to, he deploys heavy into deep strike.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.

Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.

It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.

Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.

Chill out, Slayer. You're in a Deathwatch thread. You aren't even picking the right meta picks on anything you take.

Let people spend 2 meager points for situationally cool abilities and stop being such a damn piss poor community member about every. little. thing.

Now, for anybody that actually likes playing this game and Deathwatch Primaris in general, a Reiver is a good upgrade for a bully unit, and I approve of the combat squad with 3 Intercessors, an Aggressor, and a Reiver - super fun and effective.

the_scotsman wrote:

Versatilebeats wrote:
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.

On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)

the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.

Do exorcists need LOS? Just curious. I mean it shoots missiles straight up like missiles off of American frigates and subs do now and they don't have direct line of sight.