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This is not my standard rather succesful eldar list, so I'm hoping to get some pointers.  I've got two opponents who are very tricky to beat.  One is Space Wolves, the other is Orks (first time i'll have played against him as Orks, he's usually Chaos).

I'm told that it's nigh impossible to beat either army in CC unless your playing Nids.  I intend to try.  But before I walk in there and potentially commit suicide, I figured I'd see if this is worth the effort.

 

Avatar

Autarch w/ Mandiblasters, PW, Fusion Gun

Howling Banshees x10 w/ Exarch Executioner and War Shout

Striking Scorpions x6 w/ Exarch, Biting Blade

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x6 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, 2 Cats

Storm Guardians x12 w/ 2 Flamers, Warlock w/ Enhance

Warp Spiders x6 w/ Exarch, 2 Death Spinners, Powerblades, Suprise Assualt, Withdraw

Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines (Carries Scorpions)

Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines (Carries Avengers)

War Walkers x3 w/ Missile/Missile Starcannon/Starcannon Starcannon/Starcannon

Orks: new or old?

Anyway:
Is this guy really worthwhile? If you want a cheap Autarch, I'd drop the mandiblasters (if you can), as they're just not worth the points for one more S3 attack. Better yet, get a Farseer/Eldrad. You've no shortage of things to Fortune (Avatar, Scorps), Doom or Guide.


Biting Blade? Why? This squad will achieve jack all against SW.


I don't think the last squad is worthwhile. I would rather drop them for a squad of FDs.


Care to explain your reasoning for this configuration?

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/05/2007 11:58 PM
Orks: new or old?

Anyway:

Autarch w/ Mandiblasters, PW, Fusion Gun

Is this guy really worthwhile? If you want a cheap Autarch, I'd drop the mandiblasters (if you can), as they're just not worth the points for one more S3 attack. Better yet, get a Farseer/Eldrad. You've no shortage of things to Fortune (Avatar, Scorps), Doom or Guide.

Striking Scorpions x6 w/ Exarch, Biting Blade

Biting Blade? Why? This squad will achieve jack all against SW.

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x6 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, 2 Cats

I don't think the last squad is worthwhile. I would rather drop them for a squad of FDs.

War Walkers x3 w/ Missile/Missile Starcannon/Starcannon Starcannon/Starcannon

Care to explain your reasoning for this configuration?

Mandiblasters aren't that expensive.  Cheaper then Terminator Honors that do the same thing basically.  I plan on attaching him to the Banshee squad, so they should wreak quite a bit of havok.

Scorpions are for hitting targets of opportunity, hence being loaded into the Falcon.  Their not going to be front line fighters against a pack of blood claws.  They'll probably be used to tie up some Long Fangs, or counter charge something.  I took the biting blade because I've never used it before and wanted to.

The last Avenger squad is again for hitting targets of oppurtunity.  I know I'm not going to be facing a huge amount of armor or Terminators this weekend, so I don't need a lot of Melta guns.  But the amount of shurikens they can lay down has the good potential to drop a lot of orks.

And the Warwalkers are equipped like that because thats how the guy who gave them to me built them.  I think against the Space Wolves they'll be handy, and the pinning ability of the plasma missiles will be real nice against the orks.

It's one thing to pay for an additional PFist or LClaw attack, but quite another when you're just getting another piddling S3 PW attack.

If you're attaching him to Banshees, it would probably be a good idea for him to have a Banshee Mask instead, or it will be extremely easy for your opponent to remove casualties so as to deny the Autarch his attacks.


Why tie them up when you could take the Claw instead and butcher them?


Okay, fair enough. (I didn't realise you were tailoring.)


Oh, I see. Not much I can say to that. It's a pity, though, because scatter lasers would be far more points efficient, even against SW and especially against Orks.

Are the Banshees going to be for counter assault? I don't know of anyone that would let that squad walk up the board to get anywhere close to them.  I guess the Avatar would make them Fearless, but I would think Harlies would be a much better fit than the banshees with no transport.

Everything else looks ok with what you have and borrowed.  I think depending on the SW's especially if Mech you will not fair well.  Orks are tricky as this list has a good deal of firepower backed up by what I would call counter-assault.

I also agree that a Banshee mask is essential to getting the Autarch to attack before your opponent pulls from around his area.  He will likely never see a swing IF those banshees ever see anything other than bolters to face.  I would take a doomseer and run him with the Avatar.  Makes a lot more sense with this army, as Eldrad is more expensive but a great addition.  Killing off power squad leaders and the like with MW, and all the other goodies makes him worthwhile.  Doomseer is cheap and give him a spear if you want some Anti armor just in case..

The Autarch just doesn't seem to fit.  What does he bring to your army?  4 str 3 power weapons attacks and a fusion gun?  Not really worth it.  You would be much better served with a farseer doing guide, fortune, doom, or a combination of the 3.  I would suggest running a fortune + doom farseer with your banshees.

The biting blade is only useful against multi wound creatures, so for the most part, its a waste of points.  The power fist on the other hand, kills things dead.  Its really a much better buy.

A small squad of dire avengers in a falcon isn't going to accomplish too much.  They just don't do enough damage.  You might find them useful for taking out thing in the orc player's back field (if he has any) but I don't see them as being particularly useful otherwise.  6 fire dragons on the other hand would be a much better choice and give you some much needed anti tank power (which your army is seriously lacking).

You war walker setup is terrible, but if you feel compelled to play it WYSIWYG, there isn't much that can be done about it, is there.  Setting them up as all scatter/star cannon works out well as does going all scatter lasers.  Other weapons on them are mostly pointless. 

So the consensus seems to drop the autarch. Guess I can do that, just that hit hurts point wise since he's only 100pts, and to get a Farseer it'll run around 120-140pts. That means I've gotta drop other things as well.

I'm not going to take the fire dragons. I won't be playing against armor heavy foes this weekend, so I'm not concerned about needing a lot of anti-tank. What I've got will get the job done.

I'll see what I can do about playing with the point costs to rearrange some things.

Why would a Farseer be that expensive? A Doomseer is only 80+ points.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/06/2007 8:22 PM
Why would a Farseer be that expensive? A Doomseer is only 80+ points.

But to give him Spirit Stones and Fortune as well, he'll run above 100.

Well of course, but who said you had to? Fortune is nice (particularly with the Avatar), but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Doom is the crucial skill.

I'm just saying that you shouldn't let the potential cost of a Farseer dissuade you when a perfectly adequate Farseer can be fielded for less points than the Autarch.

Or if you would rather, you can get a guid farseer to run up with your dire avengers. Just as useful as the doom one for your banshees. If you Avengers are blade storming, they are only going to shoot every other turn anyway, so the farseer should be good to go with a squad every turn. In either case, if you can get a farseer with 2 powers due to points, one is just fine. It will help you out much more than the Autarch.

If you can get more than one squad firing on/charging a unit in the same turn, Doom trumps Guide every time. Plus, in the case of DAs, would you rather reoll 3+s or what will probably be 4+s?

QFT

Avatar

Autarch w/ Mandiblasters, PW, Fusion Gun

Howling Banshees x10 w/ Exarch Executioner and War Shout

Striking Scorpions x6 w/ Exarch, Biting Blade

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x10 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, Dire Sword

Dire Avengers x6 w/ Exarch, Defend, Blade Storm, 2 Cats

Storm Guardians x12 w/ 2 Flamers, Warlock w/ Enhance

Warp Spiders x6 w/ Exarch, 2 Death Spinners, Powerblades, Suprise Assualt, Withdraw

Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines (Carries Scorpions)

Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines (Carries Avengers)

War Walkers x3 w/ Missile/Missile Starcannon/Starcannon Starcannon/Starcannon

Take a Farseer, Eldrad is the best choice, to walk in the Avatar's fearless bubble. He can fortune the Avatar, guide the War Walkers, and doom the unit shot by the Dire Avengers.
Instead of the Scorpions (which do not need a transports as they can infiltrate and move through cover) take a squad of Harlies with kisses. Fortuned Harlies are one of the best cc units in the game.

Well, I dropped the Autarch, and the smaller Avenger squad to take Eldrad.

Didn't do a thing to help me. In the end, the only thing he was good for was Mind Warring the Warphead, and the Painboy in the nob mob. Then he got cut down by the nobs because the Banshee's got eaten alive by 60 shoota shots...

And for those who complain about how expensive a Nob Mob is, you obviously haven't played against them yet... 2 wound models with Str 7 on the charge and feel no pain? Thats worth everypoint they are, and more.

For anyone about to play orks, I've got one bit of advise for you. Shoot the ever living hell out of them. Just shoot, and shoot, and shoot, and keep shooting. You will not win in close combat.

I can't believe you've got a 6pt model now that has ws4 toughness 4, and 2 attacks base...

Eldrad is amazing, if you found him to be unhelpful then you used him wrong.
Even if he isn't good, putting that autarch in your banshee squad isn't good because walking banshees is bad.
Doom will help banshees more than anything an autarch will do, guaranteed.
Your warwalkers are wierd, not really optimized.
Those storm guardians aren't really useful.
scorpion exarch needs a fist.
DS'n warpspiders is pretty dangerous for an already quick squad.

And nob squads are not that good. Of course they are going to beat you in combat when you send 6 striking scorpions to fight them, or 10 howling banshees. Str 3 banshees are not going to get the job done, and 6 scorpions just aren't enough to get the job done. The nobs could be easily avoided if on foot, or you could destroy the transport if they had one. Str 8 weapons don't even care about them having two wounds.

Regular boyz are not hard to kill in combat. Scorpions would tear em up, if it wasn't for the PK nob in every squad. You should have expected your banshees to get shot, and where was the avatar to protect eldrad? A fortuned avatar is extremely hard to kill. Too bad you were using eldrad to mind war random characters, instead of fortuning the avatar.

Your list isn't optimized in the least, and your tactics need work.

LightningGus wrote:Eldrad is amazing, if you found him to be unhelpful then you used him wrong.
Even if he isn't good, putting that autarch in your banshee squad isn't good because walking banshees is bad.
Doom will help banshees more than anything an autarch will do, guaranteed.
Your warwalkers are wierd, not really optimized.
Those storm guardians aren't really useful.
scorpion exarch needs a fist.
DS'n warpspiders is pretty dangerous for an already quick squad.

And nob squads are not that good. Of course they are going to beat you in combat when you send 6 striking scorpions to fight them, or 10 howling banshees. Str 3 banshees are not going to get the job done, and 6 scorpions just aren't enough to get the job done. The nobs could be easily avoided if on foot, or you could destroy the transport if they had one. Str 8 weapons don't even care about them having two wounds.

Regular boyz are not hard to kill in combat. Scorpions would tear em up, if it wasn't for the PK nob in every squad. You should have expected your banshees to get shot, and where was the avatar to protect eldrad? A fortuned avatar is extremely hard to kill. Too bad you were using eldrad to mind war random characters, instead of fortuning the avatar.

Your list isn't optimized in the least, and your tactics need work.

Do you have any clue what it's like watching 100 orks come charging you on Turn 2? I'd suggest fighting the new orks before critizing peoples tactics when you weren't even at the game to see what happened.

Well, the way i see it you can either accept the criticism and use it to maybe get better.

Or you can just blame your loss on the new orks and think that they are just too good to be beaten now.

I actually plan on playing orks, and have seen the new dex. I know exactly what they will be capable of.